Has Any One Else Noticed This Occuring!

Hello Everybody,

Had an email today from someone who is simply a great photographic image maker in my opinion. A creative person who can also write knowledgably and wonderfully well on photography, photographers and various processes.

He told me that he no longer visits any online forums as they inveriable end up decending into the sewer. It's something I have found to be true in my almost four years of chatting in online forums.

I see it happening here on the Askey forum and in particular in the Nikon SLR forum which I have frequented daily for a year and a half now. It's definately declining in quality in my preception and being taken over by the fluff brigade.

Too bad as the forum looses out in the end, reminds me of a business cooperation where the worst people seem to get promoted up the line and the good people simply leave in frustration. Happens all the time, we have all seen it occuring in the business world.

It unfortunately seems to be the way things eventually progress... that unstoppable and invariable slide over into the fluff stuff territory.

Stephen

--On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com

All forums seem to suffer this problem to an extent. It also tends to get worse then better in waves. If you think the DPreview forums are bad try usenet e.g. rec.sport.rugby.union

You have to pretty hard to find any sense here!

Stephen Livick said:

Hello Everybody,

Had an email today from someone who is simply a great photographic
image maker in my opinion. A creative person who can also write
knowledgably and wonderfully well on photography, photographers and
various processes.

He told me that he no longer visits any online forums as they
inveriable end up decending into the sewer. It's something I have
found to be true in my almost four years of chatting in online
forums.

I see it happening here on the Askey forum and in particular in the
Nikon SLR forum which I have frequented daily for a year and a half
now. It's definately declining in quality in my preception and
being taken over by the fluff brigade.

Too bad as the forum looses out in the end, reminds me of a
business cooperation where the worst people seem to get promoted up
the line and the good people simply leave in frustration. Happens
all the time, we have all seen it occuring in the business world.

It unfortunately seems to be the way things eventually progress...
that unstoppable and invariable slide over into the fluff stuff
territory.

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com

Click to expand...

Stephen,

You can checkout my forum if you want. However, I should say there are OT subjects there. Too much of it is certainly not educational, and yet not having it at all, is rather dry and gives me cotton mouth. I think there should be some sort of compromise. Currently, the forum I have started is casual. If you want to get serious, we can get serious. If you want to laugh, we can most certainly oblige you.

I wouldn't resort to never participating in online forums, because if I didn't, I would lose a lot of up-to-date information, which could save me thousands of dollars potentially.

I think there should be alternatives. Participating in only one forum can get boring. --Forum: http://pub103.ezboard.com/bthedigitaldinguscommunityWebsites:http://e10club.topcities.com/http://d100lounge.topcities.com/-- 'I do just about everything in my CCDs...'

Stephen- Let me follow the logic of this post. You have already decided that the quality of this forum has seriously declined. You then ask whether the very members of the community you assail agree with you. Are you looking for a group of members to respond, "yes, Stephen, I live to waste your reading time?" Clearly you are only asking this question to a select few individuals who meet your standards. Then you must know who they are, unless they have met your standards of posting without having ever posted. So send them an e-mail with this question. Start your own forum. Posting the question to the entire community may not be "fluf" but it certainly isn't an example of high quality communication about photography....Peter

DMillier said:

You have to pretty hard to find any sense here!

Stephen Livick said:

Hello Everybody,

Had an email today from someone who is simply a great photographic
image maker in my opinion. A creative person who can also write
knowledgably and wonderfully well on photography, photographers and
various processes.

He told me that he no longer visits any online forums as they
inveriable end up decending into the sewer. It's something I have
found to be true in my almost four years of chatting in online
forums.

I see it happening here on the Askey forum and in particular in the
Nikon SLR forum which I have frequented daily for a year and a half
now. It's definately declining in quality in my preception and
being taken over by the fluff brigade.

Too bad as the forum looses out in the end, reminds me of a
business cooperation where the worst people seem to get promoted up
the line and the good people simply leave in frustration. Happens
all the time, we have all seen it occuring in the business world.

It unfortunately seems to be the way things eventually progress...
that unstoppable and invariable slide over into the fluff stuff
territory.

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hi Stephen,

Yes, I have noticed this. And it seems to happen across all forums when there is an announcement of a new product, or an upgraded product. At least that's my sense of things. "NEW" seems to bring out a very different sort of post for some reason.

Hope all is well.

Lou

Stephen Livick said:

Hello Everybody,

Had an email today from someone who is simply a great photographic
image maker in my opinion. A creative person who can also write
knowledgably and wonderfully well on photography, photographers and
various processes.

He told me that he no longer visits any online forums as they
inveriable end up decending into the sewer. It's something I have
found to be true in my almost four years of chatting in online
forums.

I see it happening here on the Askey forum and in particular in the
Nikon SLR forum which I have frequented daily for a year and a half
now. It's definately declining in quality in my preception and
being taken over by the fluff brigade.

Too bad as the forum looses out in the end, reminds me of a
business cooperation where the worst people seem to get promoted up
the line and the good people simply leave in frustration. Happens
all the time, we have all seen it occuring in the business world.

It unfortunately seems to be the way things eventually progress...
that unstoppable and invariable slide over into the fluff stuff
territory.

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com

Click to expand...

-- http://www.pbase.com/louverruto/roothttp://www.photosig.com/photos.php?photographerId=2667

What seems to happen is:

1. A forum becomes popular because "pros" in the given field frequent it

2. Up-and-comers get good advice from them and enjoy the forum

3. People who haven't made a sufficient committment to the subject come along and start in with the following types of posts:

a. productx vs. producty
b. Is productx and good?
c. Who has the best price on productx?
d. Many other posts that have more to do with money than the subject

4. The "pros" retreat, and drastically cut their participation

5. Somebody asks, "Has Anyone Else Noticed This Occuring?"

The first time I experienced this was many years ago when the Unix gurus (and creators!) from ATT/Bell Labs used to participate on the Usenet groups. Then the internet caugt on, and casual users showed up -- often without sufficient tact and maturity to converse respectfully. The pros disappeared -- probably onto limited-access forums.

Oh well. It's a measure of the forum's initial quality.

I find the quality here to still be pretty good. I wouldn't have the great equipment I have today if it weren't from following these forums. However, things like all the supposition and fantasy about the upcoming DSLRs seem pretty useless. When they arrive, they arrive. Then you can make your decision. I don't see any of my "trusted names" in those threads.

These forums used to be more about photography, and the features and benefits of the equipment. Now it is more and more about the price of the equipment. I remember when Rob Galbraith tried to clean up his forums by restricting what could be discussed in the "pro level" forums. I've gone back there recently, and I see it didn't work.

There's really nothing you can do about it. It's just evolution. The best thing to do is get to know posters who you trust, and continue the relationship in e-mail.

I mean no negative criticism to Phil and his site. It is excellent overall. Just my few comments in support of what Stephen has observed.

--PeterD1X, 50/1.4, 28-105, 17-35AFS, 80-400VR, SB-28, MindStor http://www.minkhollow.com

That's when all those that leave start their own forum and everything gets elevated a tad – it’s cyclical – as is everything single thing in nature and the universes.

Why is everything round? Everything!

Hi Stephen,

I see what you mean.

My motto is "live and let live". So, if this or other forums are sometimes fluded by threads of dubious content, that arouse no interests in me, I just skip them. They don't bother me that much.

What I wished, though, is for the posters in general to be more consistent with the content of the original post.

In fact, it really irritates me when you ask for A and somebody answers B. But, then again, you can only have the party to turn out your way if you select the guests. As long as you leave the door open to anyone to join in, you must expect the visits of all sorts.

IMO, good or bad contributors are to be found on every "free" forum (by "free" I mean free to access and partecipate).

Just ignore the bad ones and the rubbish they drag along when you come across one

--Nicola (mr)(Amateur Photographer) http://www.pbase.com/nicola/galleries

Peter,

I think there is some misunderstanding here (I hope). Or maybe I misunderstood the original posts?!?!?

I think that by stating that this forum has declined, it does not mean that it has touched the bottom and, therefore, it is not worth anymore.

So, I agree with Stephen that there are not some many posts worth reading, let alone partecipating, as there used to be some time ago.
Cheers!

--Nicola (mr)(Amateur Photographer) http://www.pbase.com/nicola/galleries

And you must not forget that your perception changes.

Once you might have found a message or a topic interesting, but after being repeated for a dozen of times, the interest changes to boredom.

Also (some) people go up the ladder and posts they read eager to learn from are now "below" them, first they might answer them, because now they can be the teacher and show knowledge, but again after a dozen of times the excitement fades.

Age and experience also play a big role, I know it from other areas of interest as well. For a while you are in that hype state and eager to have always the newest and you feel the excitement and tension rise with every product announcement, you read all magazines you can put your hands on and it rules your mind. This changes over time and you rarely get exited, it's a bit of a feeling "you've seen it all" and you know that the new product will not reinvent your area of work or hobby and you know what it will be in 3 month when the hype has settled.

To be true sometimes I envy those who still have the enthusiasm and I would be glad to be able to share the excitement and not being "floating above".

And of course than are those posts which nobody needs, like any kind of whining may it be about cost, features or non-features.

Regards
SH

Stephen,

I think there's a simple reason why and that is because all the gear junkies who couldn't afford a D1 or D1x/h are now lining up to get a D100. They come to this forum hoping for some news about the D100 and, when there's nothing to be found, they're posting this stuff to kill time, whilst they're hanging out for their camera.

After the D100 is released, you can be sure that this thread will be innundated with baby and pet photos and basic questions like "What lens do I buy for my D100?"

Not something you'd look forward too, I take it.

It would be a shame if the heavy duty pro photographers and artists were to abandon the thread. Sure, an element of the amatuers will post rubbish, but a lot also read and learn a great deal. That's worth contributing to, I think.

I got to admit though, I'm slightly paranoid that the "fluff" you refer to includes my posts ) Apologies if it does. I'll try to lift my game.--RegardsAndrew McGregor'We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out.' -- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.

Hello Everybody

Mostly decent replies all, I too feel with the introduction of the D100 the rabble (said with hummm??) perhaps rabble is not the politically correct word then. ; )

Let's try enthusiastic beginners in stead, a more acceptable term.. agreed. Well they are now flooding the Nikon SLR forum in anticipation of the newest arrival to the Nikon family. With the D1x as we waited and chatted it was mostly professionals who were anticipating the Nikon birthing.

I think the only way to deal with it is to be selective in our choices of posts to respond to. Just think about it, once the D100 does arrive and all the endless D100 questions commence, the D1, and D1xers will be made more than a little redundent in its wake. ; )

However I thought that I could always borrow a D100 from my camera shop owner friend for a week perhaps two just to get a handle on it.. NAAA why bother just wasted energy and effort in hind sight.

Besides then I might want to then trade in or sell off those only year old D1xs, I am just kidding of course ; )

Thank You all for your interesting and indeed thoughtfull input!

Stephen

--On A Quest Seeking Vision! http://www.livick.com

Please excuse my "newbieness" but what does OT stand for?

Thanks!

Jason Busch said:

Stephen,

You can checkout my forum if you want. However, I should say there
are OT subjects there. Too much of it is certainly not educational,
and yet not having it at all, is rather dry and gives me cotton
mouth. I think there should be some sort of compromise. Currently,
the forum I have started is casual. If you want to get serious, we
can get serious. If you want to laugh, we can most certainly oblige
you.

I wouldn't resort to never participating in online forums, because
if I didn't, I would lose a lot of up-to-date information, which
could save me thousands of dollars potentially.

I think there should be alternatives. Participating in only one
forum can get boring.
--
Forum:
http://pub103.ezboard.com/bthedigitaldinguscommunity

Websites:
http://e10club.topcities.com/
http://d100lounge.topcities.com/
--

'I do just about everything in my CCDs...'

Click to expand...

OT = Off topic

BethB said:

Thanks!

Jason Busch said:

Stephen,

You can checkout my forum if you want. However, I should say there
are OT subjects there. Too much of it is certainly not educational,
and yet not having it at all, is rather dry and gives me cotton
mouth. I think there should be some sort of compromise. Currently,
the forum I have started is casual. If you want to get serious, we
can get serious. If you want to laugh, we can most certainly oblige
you.

I wouldn't resort to never participating in online forums, because
if I didn't, I would lose a lot of up-to-date information, which
could save me thousands of dollars potentially.

I think there should be alternatives. Participating in only one
forum can get boring.
--
Forum:
http://pub103.ezboard.com/bthedigitaldinguscommunity

Websites:
http://e10club.topcities.com/
http://d100lounge.topcities.com/
--

'I do just about everything in my CCDs...'

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

D100 are not only for the newcomers!

I have seen among those of you who make a living out of photography some who are planning to complement their equipment range with a D100.

So, I do believe that questions and answers can be still exchanged on the subject between professionals (read: who makes a living out of photography as a "profession") and serious amateurs (read: who just enjoys the art of taking pictures for personal pleasure and and thinks of the equipment just as a tool to achieve high goals).

Then again, the D2 will be out sooner rather than later (wishful thinking) and this forum may revamp again!!
)--Nicola (mr)(Amateur Photographer) http://www.pbase.com/nicola/galleries

Don't you teach your humanizing med students anger control?

Angst! ....Argh!!

;-) couldn't resist. Danno

Peter said:

Peter69322 said:

Peter69322 said:

--

Click to expand...

--Thanks......Dan

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Stephen,

I think you are right on the mark here. Too many threads are ruined by the "professional shoppers" or the permanent "pickers". People who for some reason or another seem to hang out here, answer or start hundreds of the I think this or that threads, and don't even use the equipment! If you check the profiles of some of these people, you will notice that many of them cross post the same types of notes, or they seem to have another brand of camera, but still delight in expressing opinions that they can't possibly come to without using the camera(s) that the forum they are using is intended for. This being a NIKON SLR forum, maybe we should require a D series serial number for registration, a little drastic, but it may help save the forum.

Let's hope that the newly formed forum's Moose has started may stay clean for awhile.
There, steam vented!
Mike D

It seems to me this thread is a very good example of 'noise pollution'. It's not about Nikon, it's not about digital photography, it's not about anything that matters.

It takes seconds to decide a thread isn't interesting. Took me a second. I haven't read all your answers to Steven, but it seems to me that it's just Steven trying to get everyone all worked up over nothing. You don't want to look at baby pics, don't look. You don't care what the latest, lowest price is for a D100, don't look. I only checked because sometimes Steven has something interesting to say. Not this time though.

Mike Delaney said:

Stephen,
I think you are right on the mark here. Too many threads are
ruined by the "professional shoppers" or the permanent "pickers".
People who for some reason or another seem to hang out here, answer
or start hundreds of the I think this or that threads, and don't
even use the equipment! If you check the profiles of some of these
people, you will notice that many of them cross post the same types
of notes, or they seem to have another brand of camera, but still
delight in expressing opinions that they can't possibly come to
without using the camera(s) that the forum they are using is
intended for. This being a NIKON SLR forum, maybe we should
require a D series serial number for registration, a little
drastic, but it may help save the forum.
Let's hope that the newly formed forum's Moose has started may stay
clean for awhile.
There, steam vented!
Mike D

Click to expand...

Hello Everybody,

I think I need to clarify my position a little... nothing new on line, I don't mind the serious amateurs or even serious nwebies in fact I encourage their participation. I have answered hundreds of posts where everyone else has ignored them for 24 hours because the question is too mundane to care about.

What I do mind is the crazy ill concieved answers to posts. And the silly complaints about equipment not based in reality but more on the person who is posting own hang ups.

As far as serious amateursand those just beginning go... the more the merrier in my opinion come one come all. But if we share information lets not have those foolish or off topic answers coming back at us.

And if we use light hearted humor to get the point across let it be taken in that vain. And not respond with covert venom over something whimsically given.

Hope this helps to clarify what I really intended to say in the first place ; )

Stephen

Stephen Livick said:

Hello Everybody,

Had an email today from someone who is simply a great photographic
image maker in my opinion. A creative person who can also write
knowledgably and wonderfully well on photography, photographers and
various processes.

He told me that he no longer visits any online forums as they
inveriable end up decending into the sewer. It's something I have
found to be true in my almost four years of chatting in online
forums.

I see it happening here on the Askey forum and in particular in the
Nikon SLR forum which I have frequented daily for a year and a half
now. It's definately declining in quality in my preception and
being taken over by the fluff brigade.

Too bad as the forum looses out in the end, reminds me of a
business cooperation where the worst people seem to get promoted up
the line and the good people simply leave in frustration. Happens
all the time, we have all seen it occuring in the business world.

It unfortunately seems to be the way things eventually progress...
that unstoppable and invariable slide over into the fluff stuff
territory.

Stephen

--
On A Quest Seeking Vision!

http://www.livick.com

Click to expand...

--On A Quest Seeking Vision! http://www.livick.com

Stephen Livick said:

And if we use light hearted humor to get the point across let it be
taken in that vain. And not respond with covert venom over
something whimsically given.>

Click to expand...

Are U getin at me then?

What's so funny?

Covert venom - I thought this was desert at the local Chinese?

But if it is covert – how does one know then?

So what sort of mood am I in now replying to this?

No emoticon to give you a clue.