Don't flame me....but....Nikon vs. Canon glass?

Canon 85 1.2 is in a different league man.
The league of slooow focus. Only advantage being a stop faster. With
a D3 you make up that stop.
Actually, 1.2 vs 1.4 is only a third of a stop faster. If the best
shutter speed with the 1.4 is 1/60, then with the 1.2 you'll be able
to get 1/80. Not much of a difference.

--
Yukon Territory / Canada
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoshq
I stand corrected. Minor DOF difference too.

Typical one-third-stop f-number scale

f/# 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.5 2.8 3.3 3.5 4 4.5 5.0 5.6 6.3 7 8 9 10 11 12.5 14 16 18 20 22

Very interesting article on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-number
--
Respond to rudeness with civility, it really annoys them.

Regards,

JR
 
To me Canon has the upper hand when it comes to the prosumer, while Nikon currently seems stronger in the consumer/entry level segment.

Strong points for Canon:
  • 28/1.8 USM
  • 85/1.8 USM
  • 100/2 USM
  • 70-200/4 (with and without IS)
  • 300/4 IS USM
All of these represent very good value for money and good ergonomics/transportability.

Some more interesting topics of discussion might be the 17-55/2.8 IS USM on crop and 17-40/4 USM on FF. While the crop zoom costs quite a bit, having IS on a quality zoom does seem kinda nice. And am f4 WA zoom probably strikes a good balance between price, performance and weight - at least when ISO performance is good and slim DoF is not crucial.
 
ah, true, I was thinking of the many comparisons with the 16-35
version I.

Canon finally got the 16/17-35 series right with the II version. Only
took them, what, 8 years to catch up?

-m
Mike, using your point about playing catch up, you can say the same for either side.
Like for instance...
Canon 24-70 2.8L released in 2002

Nikon 24-70 2.8 still not released and when it debuts in 2008, just 6 years playing catch up.
 
I started out with Nikon D70....the more I learned about photography and what kind of photography I wanted to get into, I just felt that Canon had the better lens choice for me. I'm not saying Canon makes better lenses, but for what i wanted to shoot and for the money I was willing to pay, I felt Canon had better lenses suited for my shooting.

1.) There is no counterpart to the 24-105 F4L IS ($1,000) in Nikon's lineup. Since this was going to be my bread and butter medium zoom lens for landscape/travel, I spent the money and got something sweet. I could have gotten the 24-70 2.8L but I like the range and IS of the 24-105. Both of these lenses are professional build, weather sealed, fast AF, and not CRAZY expensive (nikon 24-70 2.8 is $1,700 and canon 24-70 2.8L is about $1,000). With the $700 difference I could by the canon 10-22.

Some would say just get the nikon 18-200VR or the cheaper 24-120VR, but to me these lenses are not in the same league as the canon. Great lenses and canon has no answer to the 18-200 but not the same in terms of build/IQ

2.) My next lens will be the EF-S 10-22 ($640)........nikon's is 12-24 ($920) is nice but the canon counterpart is wider and cheaper. Someday I will sell this and go FF and get the 17-40L.

Honestly, I'm sure that both sides make excellent glass, but for me canon just had the better setup and I'm happy with my choice. Anyways this has been my little experience and thanks for reading.

thomas
 
I started out with Nikon D70....the more I learned about photography
and what kind of photography I wanted to get into, I just felt that
Canon had the better lens choice for me. I'm not saying Canon makes
better lenses, but for what i wanted to shoot and for the money I was
willing to pay, I felt Canon had better lenses suited for my shooting.

1.) There is no counterpart to the 24-105 F4L IS ($1,000) in Nikon's
lineup. Since this was going to be my bread and butter medium zoom
lens for landscape/travel, I spent the money and got something sweet.
I could have gotten the 24-70 2.8L but I like the range and IS of the
24-105. Both of these lenses are professional build, weather sealed,
fast AF, and not CRAZY expensive (nikon 24-70 2.8 is $1,700 and canon
24-70 2.8L is about $1,000). With the $700 difference I could by the
canon 10-22.
First of all the 24-70 by Canon is $1,159. I know there is a rebate going on, Nikon does that from time to time. Yes, Canon has a fairly nice 24-105 f4, but it is still a lens full of compromise. If that lens fits your style, I say go for it. Now Nikon has a 14-24 2.8 coming that Canon has no answer for. Its a wash in many ways.
Some would say just get the nikon 18-200VR or the cheaper 24-120VR,
but to me these lenses are not in the same league as the canon. Great
lenses and canon has no answer to the 18-200 but not the same in
terms of build/IQ

2.) My next lens will be the EF-S 10-22 ($640)........nikon's is
12-24 ($920) is nice but the canon counterpart is wider and cheaper.
Someday I will sell this and go FF and get the 17-40L.

Honestly, I'm sure that both sides make excellent glass, but for me
canon just had the better setup and I'm happy with my choice. Anyways
this has been my little experience and thanks for reading.

thomas
For me, the Nikon pro-glass is just flat better than Canon. With the exception of some wide, fast primes. Nikon does need to address that issue.
--
Respond to rudeness with civility, it really annoys them.

Regards,

JR
 
Canon 15 is just as good
Whoopsie! The 15 is not 180 degrees on a crop sensor camera. There's no 180 degree fisheye available for Canon crop-sensor cameras.

Like I said elsewhere on this thread, Nikon has a greater commitment to crop-sensor cameras. Canon, on the other hand, had a greater commitment to FF.

That's still not a quality difference, but a difference in their selections of lenses.
 
I am amazed at what I continue to learn by (mostly) lurking here.
My question is...

Are there only two kinds of camera and lens makers? I guess Pentax, Sony, Kodak, and Minolta are not even in the realm??? Did Yashica fall off the face of the earth?

Obviously, the only seriously good stuff is Canon and Nikon. I have always shot Nikon. I am however, irked by hearing that the Canon comparables are cheaper. Is this true????

Because I am fixing to order a 70-200 Nikon lens and a D300 body and have already placed my order for the 24-70 Nikon lens. Wonder how much more i will pay to have the name and quality I love.
--
thru the lens and into the world~~
 
....I've aways thought that no other line of SLR lenses really topped
the Nikkor line in either quality or versatility. (especially the
gold band labels) Recently though, Canon friends have said the I
ought to check the specs and ratings. Their view is that Canon has
really emerged as number one.
I don't choose lenses based on who is "number one." I choose lenses based on which lenses provide the results I need. If I am delighted with the images I get from a Nikkor lens, I don't care if Canon, Zeiss, or Olympus has one that's "better." With top quality lenses, the differences are likely to be small, so how could the specs and ratings and rankings possibly be worth even thinking about???
 
2) AF-S/USM. Canon has been more consistent in making USM lenses
available where Nikon by comparison a bit slow in upgrading their
lenses to AF-S. Where is my AF-S 85/1,4 and AF-S 135/2,0? ;)
Full time manual overide on the AF-S lenses for fine tuning which the
USM does not have.
Most better USM lenses (typically L lenses) have the same kind of manual override too, but many of the cheaper ones does not though.
Put an AF lens on a Pro body with a CAM 1300 or CAM 2000 to drive it
and you'd hardly notice focus speed difference.
Well, I shoot some hockey and the difference in focusing speed and precision is huge between for example the AF 135/2.0 and the AF-S 80-200/2.0 when mounted on a D2H (and even worse when on a D200). I also tried some outdoor sport with an old push-pull AF 80-200/2.8 and there is an big difference in yield of correctly focused images compared to the AF-S 80-200/2.8.

In all, I would love to have the 135/2.0 with AF-S ... And VR would not hurt either.
 
...pick a camera system based some hyped emotions about who's number one. They just what to take their time and get a good feel for what each DSLR system has to offer and what the future looks like.

The discussion in this thread roamed far and wide...but did on the whole offer an informed view. A really great public service of DPreview!!
--
Mike Danahy
'In the land of the blind...the one-eyed man is king.'
http://deeply-cool.com/photos/mike/best/
 
notegra wrote:
First of all the 24-70 by Canon is $1,159. I know there is a rebate
going on, Nikon does that from time to time. Yes, Canon has a fairly
nice 24-105 f4, but it is still a lens full of compromise. If that
lens fits your style, I say go for it. Now Nikon has a 14-24 2.8
coming that Canon has no answer for. Its a wash in many ways.
And you don't think a 14-24mm f2.8 is "full of compromise"? All zoom lenses are more or less, and the wider the viewing angle, and the larger the aperture, the more compromises must be endured.

The biggest weaknesses of the 24-105mm f4 are vignetting and distortion at 24mm, and both can be corrected in PP (better if they didn't have to) - but the basic sharpness is there, and that is what counts the most.

Canons answer to the 14-24mm f2.8 is the 16-35mm f2.8. Admittedly 14mm is wider than 16mm, but overall the two lenses are not that different. You can also use the Sigma 12-24mm and go even wider, but with smaller aperture (and much less distortion!).
For me, the Nikon pro-glass is just flat better than Canon. With the
exception of some wide, fast primes. Nikon does need to address that
issue.
Nikon pro glass have (until now) trailed Canon in the tele depatment, with missing IS/VR and higher prices. The IS/VR thing has now been corrected, but they are still more expensive.

Looking at the complete lineup there are strengths and weaknesses in both lens lines, but overall Canon has the most possibilities, and often somewhat cheaper. Both systems are great.

--
  • Jan
 
... are nothing special anymore, most new lenses use them, especially zooms, also the cheaper models. That goes for Canon, Nikon, Sigma, Tokina, Tamron, and all the others.

Example: A relatively cheap lens like the Sigma 18-200mm f3.5-6.2 has one low dispersion lens element, and three aspherical lens elements, out of 18 lens elements in total. Very complex...
One thing Canon does, though, is clearly identify their pro line with
the "L" designation.
Pro grade Nikkors (at least the reasonably new ones) have a gold ring
around the front (I think the Canon L's have a red ring?).
Nikon has ED, which is just a kind of glass,
and is present even on many entry-level lenses.
You're saying that like it's something bad. I think it's a great move
that they build their best glass even into cheaper lenses. That's why
even the kit lenses produce reasonably good images (e.g. the 18-55 DX
is superior to the EF-S 18-55, at least that was my impression).

BG
--
  • Jan
 
Rahul stated:
"but looking at the glass there is no question that Canon are better".
Hi Rahul,
Help me with this a little.
Which Canon lenses are there, in these focal lengths, where there is
"no question" that their Canon counterparts are better:

10.5
14-24
17-35
17-55
18-200VR
24-70
60 micro
85 1.4
85 PC
70-200VR
200-400VR
105 DC
200 macro
200VR
300VR
400VR
500VR
600VR
Yep but Canon have very nice pro level f4 glass.

EF 17-40L
EF 70-200L with and without IS.

This two glass is my big problem because I thinking about switch to Nikon but can't find appropriate glass in Nikon version. Of course there is 17-35 but it's 900 EUR expensive and I don't need f2.8 in that range. We have also 18-35 but I don't know is it sharp like 17-40L.

--
Dusko Jovic / DuxX /

 
Canon 85 1.2 is in a different league man.
The league of slooow focus. Only advantage being a stop faster. With
a D3 you make up that stop.
Actually, 1.2 vs 1.4 is only a third of a stop faster. If the best
shutter speed with the 1.4 is 1/60, then with the 1.2 you'll be able
to get 1/80. Not much of a difference.
I stand corrected. Minor DOF difference too.
Typical one-third-stop f-number scale
f/# 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.5 2.8 3.3 3.5 4 4.5
5.0 5.6 6.3 7 8 9 10 11 12.5 14 16 18 20 22
Very interesting article on Wikipedia.
The article you cite mentions that

Notice that sometimes a number is ambiguous; for example,
f/1.2 may be used in either a half-stop or a one-third-stop
system

But it doesn't say why. The reasons is that it's the rounding
used. Showing only two significant digits gets you
into trouble. With only two digits, you can't tell the
difference between the one-half-stop sequence and the
one-third-stop sequence.

Taken at five significant digits, the first half-stop past f/1
is 1.1892, while the first (one-)third-stop past f/1 is 1.2599.
At only two significant digits, both those figures round to 1.2,
but they aren't the same.

Between f/1 and f/2, taken at full, (one-)half-stop, (one-)third-stop,
and (one-)sixth-stop intervals, we find these numbers to five significant
digits:

1/1: 1.0000 1.4142 2.0000

1/2: 1.0000 1.1892 1.4142 1.6818 2.0000

1/3: 1.0000 1.1225 1.2599 1.4142 1.5874 1.7818 2.0000

1/6: 1.0000 1.0595 1.1225 1.1892 1.2599 1.3348 1.4142
1.4983 1.5874 1.6818 1.7818 1.8877 2.0000

The formula is simple: just raise the square root of two
to the power of the your stop, like to 1.5 or to 1.33333etc.
Thus sqrt(2) 1.5 yields something different than
sqrt(2) 1.33333 yeilds. (Or sqrt(2) 4/3 if you prefer.)

Here's a simple and little tiny program that shows this progression:
  1. ! usr/bin/perl
$LO = -1; # start at -1st full stop, or change to 0
$HI = 9; # go until the 9th full stop (f/16)
for $delta (1, 2, 3, 6) {
print "1/$delta:\t";
for ($stop = $LO; $stop
printf "%5.4f ", sqrt(2) $stop;
}
print "\n";
}

That shows you a (one-)sixth-stop sequence of

0.7071 0.7492 0.7937 0.8409 0.8909 0.9439
1.0000 1.0595 1.1225 1.1892 1.2599 1.3348
1.4142 1.4983 1.5874 1.6818 1.7818 1.8877
2.0000 2.1189 2.2449 2.3784 2.5198 2.6697
2.8284 2.9966 3.1748 3.3636 3.5636 3.7755
4.0000 4.2379 4.4898 4.7568 5.0397 5.3394
5.6569 5.9932 6.3496 6.7272 7.1272 7.5510
8.0000 8.4757 8.9797 9.5137 10.0794 10.6787
11.3137 11.9865 12.6992 13.4543 14.2544 15.1020
16.0000 16.9514 17.9594 19.0273 20.1587 21.3574

You wonder what rounding Canon was using with their
old 50mm f/0.95 lens. Did they round 0.9439 to 0.95?
Or where they using a one-seventh-stop system? The
last seventh before f/1 is f/0.9517 (that is, sqrt(2) (-1/7)
is 0.95169515301062...), while the last sixth before f/1
is only 0.943874312681694.... Seems like Marketing's
idea of rounding to me.

--tom
 
although the 200-400 f4 sounds nice.. it's quite pricey( ~$5k) and
when you think of
200@f4 = nothing special
300@f4 = ok still nothing special
400 @f4 = ok now we are talking, but I still prefer F2.8 :)
Well, when you consider that the 200-400 covers that entire range in
one lens, and is sharp enough to replace equivalent primes, it's not
quite so expensive.
But, but, but ....

The thing is there are no equivalent fixed-focals. Nikon doesn't
make a 200/4 nor a 400/4, and its 300/4 lacks VR. I trust
the missing 300/4 VR will be attended to "in the fullness of time"
as they say -- that is, when they're darned good and ready,
and not a nanosecond before. (Tick, tick, ....)

From the historical record, one surmises that Nikon always(?)
debuts their more expensive products first, doubtless lest they be
prematurely undercut by their less expensive ones. It seems
that they do this with lenses as well with bodies.

It would be useful to have a cheaper, lighter, and smaller
telephotos, like perhaps a 200/4 or 200/3.5 along with a
400/4 or 400/5.6, preferably with 77mm front-filters and VR.
However, I don't think the math would allow a 400/4 taking a
77mm filter any more than it allows a 200/2 to take one. :-)

I guess we get the old 180/2.8 instead of a 200/4.

I don't think you'd find owners of the 200/2 saying it's no sharper
than the 200-400 is at 200mm, but as I'm neither, I'm going only
on hearsay. Certainly having 4x the light would be nice, though.
Having the convenience of a zoom as opposed to
carrying multiple lenses is also nice.
Yes, there is that. Even with the full battery of teleconverters
(TC-14E II, TC-17E II, and TC-20E II), you'd still have to
fiddle with them; plus, you'd have discrete focal lengths only,
not the continuous range obtained by the smooth zoom action.

Sure, sometimes you can change your location instead of
changing the magnification, but that will alter perspective, and
anyway, it's often not an available option in any event (thus
putting the lie to the old foot-zoom notion, which ignores the
inherent link between shooter location and image perspective).

--tom
 
notegra wrote:
First of all the 24-70 by Canon is $1,159. I know there is a rebate
going on, Nikon does that from time to time. Yes, Canon has a fairly
nice 24-105 f4, but it is still a lens full of compromise. If that
lens fits your style, I say go for it. Now Nikon has a 14-24 2.8
coming that Canon has no answer for. Its a wash in many ways.
And you don't think a 14-24mm f2.8 is "full of compromise"? All zoom
lenses are more or less, and the wider the viewing angle, and the
larger the aperture, the more compromises must be endured.
All lenses have compromise. A lens with a 2 to 1 zoom factor is going to have less compromise than a lens with a 4.3 to 1 zoom factor.
The biggest weaknesses of the 24-105mm f4 are vignetting and
distortion at 24mm, and both can be corrected in PP (better if they
didn't have to) - but the basic sharpness is there, and that is what
counts the most.

Canons answer to the 14-24mm f2.8 is the 16-35mm f2.8. Admittedly
14mm is wider than 16mm, but overall the two lenses are not that
different. You can also use the Sigma 12-24mm and go even wider, but
with smaller aperture (and much less distortion!).
Nikon 17-35 f2.8 is the competitor for Canon 16-35 f2.8 and has been generally considered to be better. New 16-35 II is better but is much more suceptible to flare. Either lens can be stopped down. Sigma lens did show low distortion when stopped down to f8.
For me, the Nikon pro-glass is just flat better than Canon. With the
exception of some wide, fast primes. Nikon does need to address that
issue.
Nikon pro glass have (until now) trailed Canon in the tele depatment,
with missing IS/VR and higher prices. The IS/VR thing has now been
corrected, but they are still more expensive.
Agreed. They are more expensive, but they don't trail anymore. In U.S. at least they come with a five year warranty.
Looking at the complete lineup there are strengths and weaknesses in
both lens lines, but overall Canon has the most possibilities,
Thats very debatable.

. Both systems are great.

Agreed
--
Respond to rudeness with civility, it really annoys them.

Regards,

JR
 
That is the other reason I am leaning towards Canon - because of the
full frame support on their lenses. If I'm going to spend a ton on
glass I want to make sure they are FF ready for when I dump the $1200
body.
If that's your honest criterion, then you're choosing the wrong
manufacturer. Either you abandon the wide end altogether,
or else you buy lenses whose image circles are smaller than
a 35mm frame. Was that your intention, to abandon the wide end?
Or were you planning on abandoning your lenses?

With Nikon, you have to do neither. Nikon's DX lenses mount on
their FX body, but Canon's EF-S lenses do not mount on anything
save their 1/1.6x bodies, not even on their 1/1.3x ones.

That's inarguably a better compatibility story.

--tom
 

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