I despise challenge 14

Alfred said:

thank you avb, it´s similar with journeys into foreign countries. I
think the "object" should always have the right and possibility to
object. If you ask and it´s ok, then take a picture. Otherwise
don´t.

Click to expand...

I guess I don't agree that you should have to ask every subject for permisson. Obviously you should honor people's requests not to be photographed.

The flip side of this is that you shouldn't have to ask for permission. "Real" photographers, get to know their subjects. The gain their trust. They learn their real stories.

But yes, in all I agree. I cringed when I saw those photos myself, because I remeber making the same mistakes.

-fg
---fg

I'm not sure if I'm more amused by the assumptions and shallowness of this thread or the fact that it was posted the night before the last day of the challenge. This Challenge has been going on for two weeks and this may have been a good discussion a couple weeks ago, but to post a thread of "I despise challenge 14" torques me off like nothing I've seen in this forum.

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales, even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay? Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then - duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Amen.

Shutter said:

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

--Eric http://www.pbase.com/elamont/myf707http://www.thedigitalgalleries.com/ (a work in progress)

claps

Eric Lamont said:

Shutter said:

I'm not sure if I'm more amused by the assumptions and shallowness
of this thread or the fact that it was posted the night before the
last day of the challenge. This Challenge has been going on for
two weeks and this may have been a good discussion a couple weeks
ago, but to post a thread of "I despise challenge 14" torques me
off like nothing I've seen in this forum.

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

dyslexia said:

dyslexia said:

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street.

Click to expand...

a few problems with this statement that i see:

• "we are wealthy"

i turned in a total of $5620 in taxable income last year and still
have a nice new DA. i am a college graduate who just got out last
May. times are hard. i'm not sleeping on the street but "wealthy"
is a bit strong. granted, i have no family to support, i don't have
a mortgage or a car to make payments on. but don't assume that
owning a certain camera or posting to a certain messageboard are
valid criteria to assume that anyone who's reading this forum or
contributing to C14 has reached any particular level of affluence.

Click to expand...

OK Dyslexia, I have to ask, how does one own a DA on only $5620.

I think Alfred means "wealthy" in a more general sense, not just in the "taxable income" way. If you have access to a computer and own a $1000 camera then you are at a level of affluence many times greater than the subjects of some of the photos.

dyslexia said:

• "people like them"

there's no such thing as people like "them." there is such a thing
as "the homeless." but it's not "us" - the rich people with $1000
digicams - and "them" - the ones who don't have jobs/cars/etc.
they're sons, daughters, parents, grandparents. humans. i was
surprised to learn a few years ago that over 90% of the homeless
suffer from some form of mental illness. i'm just as guilty of
stereotyping as anyone, but it's really best to evaluate an
individual on his/her own merit. i've had quite a few fascinating
conversations with the homeless. a lot of "them" are totally
brilliant and articulate. on the other hand, i've been harassed,
threatened, attacked, etc by "them." just as i hope someone
wouldn't pass up the opportunity to get to know someone, i don't
think anyone should pass up the opportunity to capture what i
consider a major social problem. it serves as a reminder to those
who seem to ignore the dark underbelly of "society." art is like
science - morally ambiguous. it's something that's created without
regard for its consequences. it's up to each individual to
interpret. (not trying to start an a.r.t. war here.) to some it can
be social commentary, to others it's distasteful. i'm sure the same
could be said about war photography, pornography (just by calling
it pornography i've already made a judgment call), medical
documentation that shows individuals in states of abnormalcy, etc.
you just have to let it be. anything else is censorship.

Click to expand...

OK calm down. We're not in Social Problems 202 anymore. Al was not suggesting this was a problem to be ignored or and props to you for getting to know homeless people. There was nothing really wrong with his use of the word "them". "We" all are not homeless (correct? anyone here on the fourm currently homeless?). There are a couple of subjects who are in the gallery correct? Us and Them. I don't think Alfred meant much more than that...

dyslexia said:

dyslexia said:

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

Click to expand...

i'm not angry, i'm just expressing what i think about the subject.
but using the word "despise" pushes some buttons. some people are
going to say it's art, some will say it's exploitation, etc. there
are a great number of excellent photographers, on this board and
elsewhere. we don't all take the same shots, we don't all have the
same opinions. and i appreciate you sharing yours. you have a
right, and i do too. i just want to present the counterargument.

Click to expand...

Despise is a harsh word, I'll agree with you there.

And, yes, sometimes there is a blurry line between art,journalism, et. al and pornography, exploitaion, et. al. but sometimes a duck is just a duck. I don't think there's anything in that gallery that constitutes high art, and no one is bringing to light any great social issues.

-fg
---fg

Shutter said:

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

Jim, others have liked the idea of this challenge too.

We have come to this, not EVERYONE will like the next challenges.

You took this personally, it was out of bounds for many people for different reasons (even for me but decided try it anyways).

The challenges is not about winning a contest, it is about getting better at something you don't really are. This is how I see it.

--Kafrifelle (Yves P.) Owner of DSC-F707,No BFS, No hassle but strong vignetting on leftVCL-MHG07A, HVL-F1000 and some close up lenses ... http://www.pbase.com/kafrifelle

Journalism by its nature is controversial, and I think the host expected and even hoped the entries would spark debate and get us thinking. After reading this thread I went back and reviewed the challenge. We have entries ranging from the silly to the sobering, with a whole range of emotions spread out before us. I saw no artists that exploited their subjects in any demeaning way. In fact just the opposite is true. Some of the serious issues facing human kind are show-cased here to send a message of rememberance and duty and hope - drunk driving, breast cancer, terrorism . . .and homelessness, to name the more serious. There are also messages of joy and celebration and humor, and even messages portraying the ordinary pleasures of day to day life that we all need to be reminded of some times. I think STF is responding to the challenge in a most responsive and responsible way. CindyD--CindyD or SarahD (dpreview won't let us each have an account!)If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...

faye67487 said:

I can only speak for myself - it's not about only posting pretty
photos, it's about photographing people without their knowledge or
approval and then publishing the photo.

Click to expand...

Remember the famous shot of that nine years old Vietnamese girl running in the streets totally naked during an air raid?

Do you think the photographer obtained her premission or told her about it? No ...

So what makes photos that shows the truth about poor people in US cities any different?

jc

Jim;

If you have read all of the threads, then you know this is not about the subject matter - at all. In fact I did ask Amy in a thread yesterday if the gentleman gave his permission to have his picture taken. In Kim's photos, the people are obviously aware that their picture is being taken.

Shutter said:

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

--Faye

Shutter. said:

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Click to expand...

Alfred's point was that people seemed to be using homeless people as their way into the gallery. Those photographers are using their images to get little pats-on-the-back look-at-me-i'm-a-serious-photographer points from the fellow forum members.

Comparing these silly challenge entries to riot coverage or police brutality is a bit of a stretch. None of those images were reporting such injustices. All I know

Shutter. said:

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

Click to expand...

Kim's photos are a decent portrait of people she knows well and has conveyed their personality to the rest of us... the one of the guy with the crutches with the kids in the background is exploitive, even if someone got his permission. It shows no depth of character. It's a pure oneliner gawkfest.

---fg

Alfred.....

I understand exactly how you feel about all this. I had my own reservations about this challgne.... but mine had nothing to do with pitty for those who are unknowingly posing for a shot. Mine was more of a two part.... one was the awkward feeling I felt trying to take pictures of strangers, the other was that I truly do not enjoy this type of photography.... I just have nothing against it.

I want you to understand something very important and, to give it some serious thought........ please.

1. If it were not for photojournalism, Life magazine would have died before it ever got off the ground so to speak. On the contrary, people for many years enjoyed the candid, up close and personal style of photography they exhibited in those magazines and, award winning ones I might add. So my first point is that this type of photography although not one I personally enjoy..... really gives something to the public they want..... either information they could not themselves get by virtue of not being able to be there and witness what took place or images that make people smile, cry, laugh..... and not at anyone's exzpense I might add.

If you are feeling sorry for the homeless people who end up in photojournalism images, just think of all the positivie publicity they received by way of people becoming more aware of their plight.

On a last note, I'm not sure why you got so hot and bothered about this (wow shutter REALLY got hot there). If you don't like the images, don't look at them..... does that make sense? I'm sure you don't watch T.V. shows you don't like..... nobody forces you to watch them, right/

Anyway, I respect your feelings..... i just wanted to express a few points of view you might not have taken into consideration. As for the mention of some of us using people to win a contest..... let's remember there is NO prize here Alfred. It's only the ego, self confidence, and the spirit that gets uplifted in having these contests. Besides, I've actually learned something from this particular challenge. I've learned to keep an open mind....even though I had absolutely no interest in this type of photography.

Hope I didn't rant too much folks. There's no quick and easy response to a serious subject like this one.

And Shutter.......... take a chill pill !!!!! Remember, you should not take a challenge so personally.... even when you are hosting it. Smile.

Mark J.

Alfred said:

There are 3 such images in the galleries. They are technically good
and the 2 in b&w really make me feel sorry for the clochard.

I know that the world is not pink all around - otherwise there
would have never been an 11th sept. 2001...

I just stated my opinion

regards

Alfred

Yves P. said:

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

Alfred, what shocked you so much in these pictures ? Which one
exactly ? I only see one contraversial pic in elligible challenge
and it is a damn good one. This is reality too. I don't even think
that Amy did this pictures to win a contest, it doesn't look like
sports either. If it shocks you, maybe it has made his point. This
is reality for some people, it is a different reality for you in
your day to day but I don't think this was done in any disrespect.

Not everything in life is beautyfull, not everything is cool ...

If it was out of a magazine, I bet you'd probably think that it is
a great picture. If you were not refering to the homeless person,
please explain ...

Regards,

--
Kafrifelle (Yves P.) Owner of DSC-F707,
No BFS, No hassle but strong vignetting on left
VCL-MHG07A, HVL-F1000 and some close up lenses ...
http://www.pbase.com/kafrifelle

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

Hey Yves,

I'm not taking this personally. I would have reacted exactly the same way if it were someone elses challenge. I reacted to the shear absurdness of the post. People don't have to like challenges. They're have been a few that I didn't like at all but I wasn't about to post a thread saying I despise it. In fact, I even participated in the challenges that I didn't like. I guess I thought it might make me a better, more rounded photographer.

So he may not be comfortable with taking pictures of people, fine. But to say it makes "sport" is ridiculous. And offensive. Photography is an art, and like other forms of art, is expressed in many ways. I suppose by the same token, art critics can express themselves in many ways...

Jim

Yves P. said:

Shutter said:

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

Jim, others have liked the idea of this challenge too.

We have come to this, not EVERYONE will like the next challenges.
You took this personally, it was out of bounds for many people for
different reasons (even for me but decided try it anyways).

The challenges is not about winning a contest, it is about getting
better at something you don't really are. This is how I see it.

--
Kafrifelle (Yves P.) Owner of DSC-F707,
No BFS, No hassle but strong vignetting on left
VCL-MHG07A, HVL-F1000 and some close up lenses ...
http://www.pbase.com/kafrifelle

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

And, in fact, I have moved my breast cancer story to the Exhibition gallery because I wanted it to be about getting women to take care of their health and not a photo challenge . I applaud your choice of a challenge theme - there are a lot of good stories out there.

Faye said:

If you have read all of the threads, then you know this is not
about the subject matter - at all. In fact I did ask Amy in a
thread yesterday if the gentleman gave his permission to have his
picture taken. In Kim's photos, the people are obviously aware that
their picture is being taken.

Shutter said:

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

--
Faye

Click to expand...

--Faye

???

Do you know Amy? If you think her intention is for a gawkfest you're completely wrong. So, serious photographers don't take pictures of the homeless? You don't think its news? Not a subject worth talking about? You don't think that the submissions of homeless were intended to keep homelessness in front of us? Or would you rather not see it, hear it, know about it?

fg said:

fg said:

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Click to expand...

Alfred's point was that people seemed to be using homeless people
as their way into the gallery. Those photographers are using their
images to get little pats-on-the-back
look-at-me-i'm-a-serious-photographer points from the fellow forum
members.

Comparing these silly challenge entries to riot coverage or police
brutality is a bit of a stretch. None of those images were
reporting such injustices. All I know

fg said:

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

Click to expand...

Kim's photos are a decent portrait of people she knows well and has
conveyed their personality to the rest of us... the one of the guy
with the crutches with the kids in the background is exploitive,
even if someone got his permission. It shows no depth of
character. It's a pure oneliner gawkfest.

--
-fg

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Well Faye,

Its too bad you felt you needed to move it. I guess that's a reflection of what has happened to the challenges. It is no longer about sharing our photography and our ideas. It must be about winning. That's too bad. They've just lost a lot of interest for me.

Jim

Faye said:

Faye said:

If you have read all of the threads, then you know this is not
about the subject matter - at all. In fact I did ask Amy in a
thread yesterday if the gentleman gave his permission to have his
picture taken. In Kim's photos, the people are obviously aware that
their picture is being taken.

Shutter said:

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

--
Faye

Click to expand...

--
Faye

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Oh, and Alfred, did you read the Challenge detail post or the frequent reminders and unique posts where I clarified what I was classifying as photojournalism? Sure doesn't seem like it....
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=2420011

Where in that initial post does it say anything about the subject being unsuspecting people?

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Dear Shutter / Jim,

remember the other day when you sent me an email saying something about the fact that both of us can be opinionated?

Well, you are doing it again.... and it's not going to change anyone's mind.... if that's your goal here. This is a very controversial subject (the homeless part of it) and, I personally make sure I do not discusss two particular things with people I do not know persoanally......

politics and religion

Homeless plightv is sad, it's controversial and, believe it or not, it's involves a great deal of politics. There are only two sides to this story.......

you and them lol

Ease up on everyone just a bit, can you? I commend you for picking such a difficult challenge subject and, I knew..... I juist knew this was going to happen as a result of it.

Take a cooling off period for say a half an hour, then come back and say what you want to say when you've calmed down just a tad. Ok?

I'm not trying to say what you are doing is wrong here.... I'm just saying that when you try to converse on a subject that has obviously gotten you hot and tense, that you sit back for a few and let all of everyone's points of view settle in for a while. You might even find more understanding in what they feel..... even if it isn't how you feel.

With all due respect,
Mark J.

Shutter said:

Do you know Amy? If you think her intention is for a gawkfest
you're completely wrong. So, serious photographers don't take
pictures of the homeless? You don't think its news? Not a
subject worth talking about? You don't think that the submissions
of homeless were intended to keep homelessness in front of us? Or
would you rather not see it, hear it, know about it?

fg said:

Shutter. said:

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Click to expand...

Alfred's point was that people seemed to be using homeless people
as their way into the gallery. Those photographers are using their
images to get little pats-on-the-back
look-at-me-i'm-a-serious-photographer points from the fellow forum
members.

Comparing these silly challenge entries to riot coverage or police
brutality is a bit of a stretch. None of those images were
reporting such injustices. All I know

Shutter. said:

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

Click to expand...

Kim's photos are a decent portrait of people she knows well and has
conveyed their personality to the rest of us... the one of the guy
with the crutches with the kids in the background is exploitive,
even if someone got his permission. It shows no depth of
character. It's a pure oneliner gawkfest.

--
-fg

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

Alfred Eder said:

Good thought Jimmy. But NOTHING changes anything. If it would,
there would not be a third world.

Click to expand...

Wrong ... Seriously wrong way of thinking ...

Allow me to give you some examples of my reef keeping hobby.

Coral aquarium is a pretty young hobby within the States. More general hobbyists education has happened in the last 5 or so years then in the 25 years before that in term of all saltwater hobby (fish included).

In the early 90s this guy Steve Tyree started to get involve into researching how to keep Acropora alive. Back then those corals are consided impossible to keep. Ten years later, this hobby is now flooded with follow hobbyist growing Acropora out of their own home systems and are either selling them at a low price, or trading them for other corals.

Can one person change something? You bet your a** he or she can ... The reef keeping hobby in the past 5 or so years went from "buy all wild corals" to "buy mostly captive raised" corals ...

We as a hobby went from buying from IndoPac nations who used to TNT blast their reefs so they can sell us the corals to now buying from those same nations selling ocean farm raised corals because we hobbyists here in the States made a stink about TNT blasting and refused to support those countries.

How is this related to photography? If that one Steve Tyree didnt take the hard issue head on ten years ago about keeping those Acroporas alive, reef keeping will not be where it is today. Same is true with photos, sometimes that one photo can make quite a statement to many people.

IMHO this poor person photo already has its impact, maybe even more so then any other one in the whole C-14.

jc

Shutter said:

Do you know Amy? If you think her intention is for a gawkfest
you're completely wrong. So, serious photographers don't take
pictures of the homeless?

Click to expand...

Of course I don't know Amy, but I didn't know Dorthea Lange either.

Her intentions are irrelevant (and unkown since she did not write about them). All we have to go on is the single image of the guy on crutches (unless I'm missing the rest?). A single picture, out of context as it is, is not illustrating any connection with the subject or compelling understanding of the subect. It just says "Ohh, look, a homeless person". It's not telling any story.

fig a.



where as Kim's images are an intimate, although I might say a tad romantizied, honest quick look at homeless people in MN that she knows.

fig b.



Am I saying Amy is a bad person? No. I encourage her to track that guy down, maybe spend a day with with him, show us a day in the life of that guy. That would be photo journalism.

Shutter. said:

You don't think its news? Not a
subject worth talking about? You don't think that the submissions
of homeless were intended to keep homelessness in front of us? Or
would you rather not see it, hear it, know about it?

Click to expand...

No. Amy's picture, by itself, is not news. I have no problems with the subject matter as I think Kim's are a step in the right direction.

I think many of you are missing the point. This is a "challenge" correct? There is a "winner" correct? Using voyeristic pictures of "disadvantged" people to win a contest i.e. "for sport" is in bad taste.

-fg

---fg

fg,

It was just called to my attention that I missed the part of your thread about the homeless guy on crutches. Let me tell you about Jeremiah. This story is 100% the truth. I saw saw this man in downtown minneapolis. I saw him dig into the garbage and find his lunch. I walked over to him and gave him $10. He was extremely surprised that someone came up and gave him money without him asking for it. You should have seen his reaction when he realized it was a $10, not a $1. He said he was going to buy listerine. I didn't quite hear him, so asked "what are you going to get?", he thought I was judging him and changed his answer to coffee. I said, "Hey, I don't care what you buy, get what you need". He replied again "okay then, I'll get listerine". He then introduced himself as Jeremiah, and said he was just going to call me James Dean (black leather coat, jeans, black leather boots, etc...). We talked for quite a while and it was a very personal and touching exchange for me. So, I wanted to remember him so I took a few pictures of him. When I was home that night editing my pics, my 3 and 4 year old jumped on my lap (as they frequently do when I'm editing pics) and asked "who is that, daddy?". I told them it was Jeremiah, and he was homeless. Of course, they didn't quite understand "homeless" (so I thought). Well, that night, as we were saying our prayers as usual, where they fight me and joke around, etc..... well, that night they sat down and out of the blue my oldest prays "and help Jeremiah get a house", and my daughter chimes in "yeah, he needs to live somewhere!" And now Jeremiah is prayed for every night right after grandma and grandpa. I've never asked them to, or reminded them to. They just do it.

Thanks for cheapening it for me.

fg said:

fg said:

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Click to expand...

Alfred's point was that people seemed to be using homeless people
as their way into the gallery. Those photographers are using their
images to get little pats-on-the-back
look-at-me-i'm-a-serious-photographer points from the fellow forum
members.

Comparing these silly challenge entries to riot coverage or police
brutality is a bit of a stretch. None of those images were
reporting such injustices. All I know

fg said:

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

Click to expand...

Kim's photos are a decent portrait of people she knows well and has
conveyed their personality to the rest of us... the one of the guy
with the crutches with the kids in the background is exploitive,
even if someone got his permission. It shows no depth of
character. It's a pure oneliner gawkfest.

--
-fg

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries