How Do You European Photographers Do It?

Trouble is this thread is about an American tourist in Europe and not about how we (Europeans) go about things.

For years and years I worked in the City and would go for a walk at lunchtime and go to (say) the park and buy a picnic lunch on the way but I didn't buy from tourists' shops at tourists' prices. Nor did I buy exotic (American f'instance) food but instead I bought what I'd normally eat. The breakfast prices quoted amazed me but if I was buying I'd pay a lot less because experience has taught me that normal prices for normal things exist alongside silly prices for silly tourists. Or does everyone really belief that no one works in towns any more?

In France I usually buy breakfast outside of the hotel and so can say that a cup of black coffee and a couple of croissants is dirt cheap. It has to be because the shop would close without customers and customers who live in a town soon discover what the local level of sensible prices is. About € 2 or 3 € (luckily the family own property in France so I know several towns fairly well).

As for the camera etc; the US dollar is falling in value as we type/read this. A couple of years ago I'd get US$14 for a tenner, a year ago about $15 or $16 and this week about $20 but these are bankers rates. It makes more sense - if you want to understand prices - to look at average wages and compare them. Then look at normal things and compare them. Because when all's said and done we Europeans somehow manage to eat daily (probably a lot better than Americans) and drink as well (no comment) and have dSLR's and computers etc etc.

Regards, David

Doesn't change!
--
STOP Global Stasis! Change is good!

Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
http://www.photo.net/photos/GlenBarrington

I've said this before in other similar posts, but I think cultural differences play a far more important role in how prices are set than people realize.

Each culture demands/allows for various efficiencies and inefficiencies, that by themselves don't mean much but in total, add up to major cost differences.

The problem is, when you start giving examples, people think you are criticizing or preaching a particular economic POV so I stopped doing examples!

--
STOP Global Stasis! Change is good!

Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
http://www.photo.net/photos/GlenBarrington

Usually I buy my photographic equipment at a Swiss online store (www.architronic.ch). This shop is very reliable and many items are cheaper than Adorama/BH photo.

Current price of 1D MKIII:

BH Photo: 4499.95 USD excl. VAT
Architronic: 4066.00 USD incl. VAT

Happy shopping!

Fabian

... drive cars with automatic transmission!
;^)

Jim Ford

Effzeeone said:

And I did find quite a few, but I have to say I was blown away by
sticker shock.

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I understand your frustration, the dollar is quite chep now in EU, fortunately for us, living here more than two weeks a year.

Effzeeone said:

I also saw a lot of
E-400 and E-500 kits, but all of them were well over 1,000 Euro. I
did not see any E-410 cameras, and only saw one E-510 in the window
of a photo shop in Barcelona, Spain, but when I inquired about how
much, the salesman (shop owner/manager?) laughed at me and simply
said, "too much", which I thought was a little a bizarre.

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Effzeeone said:

... chalked it up to being a foreigner and not understanding the context.
That was on my second day in Europe ...

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I don't know about Barcelona but the E-500 kit never was as high as 1000 Euro, not even when it was introduced here in Sweden, one of EU's most expensive countries. Anyway, if he tried to sell those cameras at that price it was definitely a rip-off attempt, or it is the only shop in Barcelona. As for his "too much" answer to your "how much" question, I think his answer was right, even if it was arrogant, sice you would not buy that anyway. So, as a salesman, he made the right judgment of you as a customer, not wanting to spend time with you, you are just somebody spending a few hours in the city, never to return and most probably already commented the prices in the shop, showing you are not going to leave your dollars there. Maybe his attitude was wrong, but that's how it is. One single shop may not represent the prices and one single salesman may not represent the trade.

The E-510 was displayed and available here in Sweden in the shops as soon as it was released. Body only is priced around US$1000, dual kit around US$1400. The E-500 is not sold anymore, if you are lucky to find it, you can get it for almost nothing, just like the E-1. The E-400 dual kit is selling for about US$800-900. I am talking about the shop prices where I am buying my stuff, not online.

Effzeeone said:

But how do you European folks do it? Is it just like America where
online prices are better? If so, they'd have to be MUCH better (a
bigger difference ratio than here in America).

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In fact, I read somewhere that Internet sales in Europe are much higher than in US, not only due to the fact that EU is having more inhabitants. I think it is more of a European culture than an American. That is both for good and bad. Good, because it is comfortable, bad because it is more and more difficult to try before you buy. That is especially the case for photography. There are not many shops selling dSLR cameras, most selling P&S only, and if they have some dSLR on stock, the stock is very limited. So, there is almost no point to look for them if you don't know the terrain. Angain, I don't know about Barcelona, but in Sweden the large shoping centers are located outside cities, hardly a place tourists visit. In the center the availablity of camera shops is even more limited. All those are figthing for survival in an unfair competition against the Internet.

Effzeeone said:

I was really getting worried about you
folks seeing all those high prices. I was thinking I'd have to come
back here and setup a PayPal trust account to help out you European
photo-hobbyist on a donation basis from all of us discount American
photo hobbyists.

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Actually, don't worry, the Second World War has been over for 60 years now, we do not need the Marshall aid any more. Europe and Europeans can manage without any special help, sorry, but I really don't feel sorry for any of us. Yes, consumer prices are higher, mainly due to higher wages and taxes, but as far as I can see, even the quality of life. We don't have to worry about my children's education, child care, our health, old age, unemployment, living conditions and so on. In most European countries that is fully, partially, or to a large extent finaced through those taxes I and others have to pay when buying our cameras.

BTW, next time in Europe, you can buy almost everything tax free (not food). You pay the tax in the shop and can get a refound when leaving the country. The stuff you buy must be sealed and unused in that country. Almost every shop is offering that possibility to you, not being a EU citizen.

Have tried, but the price for E-(4/5)10 are the same as here in CZ, plus CH is not EU, so VAT and duty on top ... no joy ... but thanks
--
pka
http://www.karlach.net/

Fabian96 said:

Usually I buy my photographic equipment at a Swiss online store
(www.architronic.ch). This shop is very reliable and many items are
cheaper than Adorama/BH photo.
Happy shopping!
Fabian

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The U.K. has only just (last year IIRC) paid off the loans the U.S. made in the last War. These payments have obviously helped subsidise U.S. photographers!

Now we've made the last payment, U.S. prices will rise - just you watch!
;^)

Jim Ford

CollBaxter said:

I brought in a E-510 ( Twin lens Kit) from B&H into South Africa it
cost me $999 and at extra $400 Freight, Duty and VAT.

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That adds to a total of US$1400 (assuming you mean US currency in the above). That is the same I have to pay for that kit here in Sweden, and I would even get a 4GB Sandisk Extreme CF plus some other bits and pieces AND an additional year of warranty.

Talking about warranty, what happens if the camera breaks down? I suppose you have to send it to Oly SA at your own costs. I suppose no shops near you would handle the camera free of charge, even if it is under warranty. Yes, Oly will repair, so you don't have to send it to USA but you have to pay for transport within SA, isn't it so? I had actually had to use the warranty twice during the last year, once Oly Sweden changed the 14-45mm to a new one while I was there anyway in another business, and the second time was my ED 50mm f2.0 macro lens that needed to be repaired. I just left it at the shop where I bought the lens, given an error description and one or two weeks later collected the lens. No costs, all transports and handling at the shop owner's or Oly's risk.

In fact, both when I bought my ED 50 and the 14-54mm (two different occasions) I was considering B&H, but after having looked at the ridiculous rip off price they have for delivery, plust VAT here in Sweden, the slight difference in total put me off from doing it. The extra year warranty and easier handling tells me never to do it, unless there is really A LOT OF MONEY to make that way. So, I am still loyal to my local dealer, other Swedish camera shops, or Swedish on line shops. An alternative to that is other European (on line or otherwise) shops.

Jim Ford said:

The U.K. has only just (last year IIRC) paid off the loans the U.S.
made in the last War. These payments have obviously helped subsidise
U.S. photographers!

Now we've made the last payment, U.S. prices will rise - just you watch!
;^)

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To add insult to injury they financed Sadam, didn't they? (When he was one of the good terrorists, of course... )

Regards, David

lol101 said:

Yep!

Street prices are much higher this side of the Atlantic, fortunately,
we're also much better payed... not!!

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Yes, I agree. We also have longer yearly paid leaves, less working hours and so on.

lol101 said:

In early 2007, I was looking for a Pentax 12-24 f4 in France and
found it in a big retailer chain for... €1069 while B&H has the lens
listed at $759 !!...

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Sure, but once you paid the $759 they would add another 2-300 or more for delivery...

Comparing any street prices, even Auchan or Fnac, and Internet shop prices must include everything. Unless you can just pop over and get it directly from the shop, B&H prices are just eye candy.

Effzeeone said:

Wow...I would be in big trouble with She-Who-Holds-the-Money if we
lived in Europe. I would have to find a different hobby...like
breathing, as that was about the only thing free we did over there --
haha. Even that was probably at a cost because cigarette smoking was
rampant over there compared to in the USA where there seems to be far
more restrictions on smoking in public places.

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Well, maybe it is best to stay at home...

The other thing is, if you and "She-Who-Holds-the-Money" would be living here, probably you would get another picture and would not worry that much about prices. I know I am not, nor does my "She-Who-Holds-the-Money" because we have the full picture.

As for smoking, it may be so that some countries have not much (if any) restrictions, but please, don't make the mistake of saying Europe is equal to...

EU and Europe is equal to so many different countries, cultures, languages and way of living, that it is difficult to imagine and you seem to ingnore that basic fact. Even regarding cigarette restrictions. I have no idea if USA is just one united country regarding that issue (I doubt that), but I am convinced that the risks of you getting shot by accident or as part of a criminal act somewhere in Florida are much higher than the risks a non-smoker European is taking living in the most cigarette liberal country of Europe, whichever that may be. So, it may be so that there are more restrictions in USA regarding cigarettes, but I prefer to have more restrictions on personal fire arms than on cigarettes.

BTW, I am a non smoker and hate smoke stinking restaurants, but like it more than smoke stinking guns. I guess, that is also part of a cultural difference.

David Hughes said:

Jim Ford said:

The U.K. has only just (last year IIRC) paid off the loans the U.S.
made in the last War. These payments have obviously helped subsidise
U.S. photographers!

Now we've made the last payment, U.S. prices will rise - just you watch!
;^)

Click to expand...

To add insult to injury they financed Sadam, didn't they? (When he
was one of the good terrorists, of course... )

Click to expand...

And they said of Noriega 'He may be a son-of-a-*****, but at least he's our son-of-a-*****'!

Whatever happened to Noriega - is he out of a U.S. jail yet?

Jim Ford

Effzeeone said:

I guess I was spoiled. Prior to this trip out of the country, I had
only previously been to the Far East (Japan, Philippines, Korea). I
lived in Japan for three years (about 20 years ago) as my father
served in the US Air Force. Anyway, my only experience outside of
the USA was that everything was cheaper -- not more expensive.

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That's what I thought, your picture of Europe (and maybe the World) is somewhat distorted, unfortunately, even after your trip. Both the Japanese, the Korean AND European economies are different now, compared to 20-30 years ago, in fact most of the world I know of is different.

Any "Lessons learned" from your trip other than prices are different...? For example; Don't look for the Iron curtain, it is gone a long time ago (sorry, bad joke).

Also, find out some facts BEFORE travelling. Old knowledge has no value, the World (or at least) Europe is constantly changing. One reason why I love Europe and travelling in Europe.

Jim Ford said:

So if the compulsory insurance is private, it'll be a profit making
organisasion provide a dividend to shareholders. This means that
you're compelled to put money straight into the pockets of third
parties! Very nice if you're on the receiving end of a population
making regular payments into your bank account - but hardly making
for an efficient health service.

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The idea is that insurance companies, who will be paying for the medical bills, have a lot more cloud than private individuals and will force healthcare providers to keep prices low by only entering contracts with those who offer the best prices. Meanwhile, people are free to get insurance with the company of their choice and the annual fees are curbed by the government. It's a new system and we have yet to see how things will work out.

I'm not against mandatory insurance. In a civilised world, you can't deny medical care to those who really need it, so, if you don't want to encourage freeloading, that implies that we all pay for our share. I have spent the equivalent of $35000 on medical insurance in the past ten years without getting anything in return, but if I live to be 80 or 90, as increasing numbers of people do, chances are that I'll still be getting my money's worth (which I'm not really looking forward to).

Jim Ford said:

And I thought the Dutch were the most civilised people on Earth!

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Of course, we still are just that

Effzeeone said:

That's very true to my experience. I sat in a SpanAir airplane in
Zurich for 45 minutes on the runway...without air conditioning. No
one else seemed to have a problem, but I was dying. And then
everyone started whipping out the cigarettes and smoking. Haha.

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That is where I realize you are just making up a story. By regulations, smoking is not allowed on the runway at all anywhere in Europe since ages.

Even in the air, since I don't remember when (long time) AFAIK, smoking is prohibiten in European airspace in commercial passanger aircraft.

The airconditioner is always on in an aircraft if the engines are on, most of the times even when engines are off. Otherwise you, and everybody else would quickly die a painful death. Maybe the temperature level was not to your comfort, but definitely on.

Yes, ha ha ha... you fooled us and we deserved it. While you may have taken a trip, I can hardly believe your words any more.

Jim Ford said:

The U.K. has only just (last year IIRC) paid off the loans the U.S.
made in the last War. These payments have obviously helped subsidise
U.S. photographers!

Click to expand...

I think that loan was refinanced at least once - I'm not sure we paid the full amount borrowed, but rather the full amount agreed. Many nations, of course, paid sod-all.

--
--
mumbo jumbo

Danielvr said:

The idea is that insurance companies, who will be paying for the
medical bills, have a lot more cloud than private individuals and
will force healthcare providers to keep prices low by only entering
contracts with those who offer the best prices.

Click to expand...

... and only entering into contracts with those who are currently fit and healthy!

There was a programme recently which described instances where insurance companies, because a previous trivial medical condition was unwittingly not mentioned in the contract, would not pay out for unrelated medical conditions. The 'victims' had paid medical insurance for many years for nothing! They would also harass people with long term sickness in an attempt to avoid continuing to pay out.

Danielvr said:

Danielvr said:

And I thought the Dutch were the most civilised people on Earth!

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Of course, we still are just that

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Well we all know that - I was just joking!

D Q E said:

What is a Disney cruise? Is it animated?

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Mickey Mouse thumbling down the road in a runaway caravan?

I guess it is a make-believe trip over Europe using Google Earth and believing you learned something about how everything is in Europe. Not even bothering about the facts that Europe is not Europe, it is different countries, cultures and languages.

Fortunately Olympus carries a 1 year international warranty. I would like to buy Local but the local shops are still trying to sell the E-400 and no date on the E-410/510. Olympus South Africa do not repair locally. They send the equipment to Europe for repairs (six weeks turnaround time.)

I got rather disheartened trying to work through local shops as they only want to sell kits it’s a hassle to get other items. I have waited 3 months for a EP-6 eye cap. As to prices I would have had to pay $1750 US for the camera(e-510) locally. The cost of the 50-200 is the equivalent of $1600 US which is twice the US cost.

Cameras are expensive in our part of the world.

--
Collin