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How Do You European Photographers Do It?

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Effzeeone

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Okay, just got back from a rather nice two week Disney cruise included ports in Spain, Italy, and France. Of course, one of the things we did with six females (sorry, ladies!) in our rather large party was shop. While they were looking at overpriced clothing and shoes (even during this rebate season), I was always searching for the photography shops/departments.

And I did find quite a few, but I have to say I was blown away by sticker shock. Please do not read this as a dig or that America is better, blah blah blah. I was feeling serious concern for all you European photographers, especially when the cheapest I saw a Panasonic DMC-L1 with the usual kit lens was 1,995.00 Euro! That's at least twice the going price here in the USA. I also saw a lot of E-400 and E-500 kits, but all of them were well over 1,000 Euro. I did not see any E-410 cameras, and only saw one E-510 in the window of a photo shop in Barcelona, Spain, but when I inquired about how much, the salesman (shop owner/manager?) laughed at me and simply said, "too much", which I thought was a little a bizarre. I just chalked it up to being a foreigner and not understanding the context. That was on my second day in Europe (when foolishly looking for the equivilent of a Walgreens like pharmacy because 4 our of 5 of our suitcases were stranded in Zurich), so that really burst my bubble in thinking that maybe I could get a slightly good deal on a E-510 while in Europe.

But how do you European folks do it? Is it just like America where online prices are better? If so, they'd have to be MUCH better (a bigger difference ratio than here in America). Prior to going on the trip, I told my wife that if my camera system was stolen or broken, I'd just hop into one of the European stores and buy the E-510 (haha). My wife would've killed me had I paid those prices.

All in all, great trip. I live in St. Augustine, Florida, so I am familiar with living in a tourist town with significant history to it, but...wow. Your cities make my "ancient city" look like a newborn baby. I captured some really nice shots with my E-500 two lens kit. The Lowepro Slingshot 200AW worked very well until a two-hour bus ride back from Rome to port resulted in a pinched nerve in my lower back. I was then wishing I had brought my no-namebrand rolling photo backpack instead. I really enjoyed annoying the Disney photographers on the boat, as I frequently had my E-500, Vivitar 285hv, and Stroboframe camera flip flash bracket with me, easily matching their shots with my kids and the Disney characters. This was a multi-family vacation with a lot of kids, so we were able to take a lot of planned portraits with some beautiful port backdrops on the ship. We still purchased a lot of the Disney photos (mainly out of convenience of not having to post process, print, worry about end quality, etc.), but passed on quite a few since mine turned out just as well.

I did notice that Disney seems to have given up on their previous photography policy. Previously, they would not exactly be uncooperative with parents taking happy-snaps over their photographer's shoulders, but they wouldn't exactly be cooperative about it either. Now they actually keep the characters and kids still posing for mom or dad to take a quick picture or two as well. I think they've realized that with digital photography, it's difficult to maintain their old policy, and now they just have to rely on the fact that most of the time the Disney photographers are going to take better shots. By the way -- Nikon. That's what ALL of the official Disney photographers were using. Most were using commonly available flash brackets and flashes, but some had lightboxes setup with some backdrops. Most were not using any Nikon model that I haven't seen at an electronics store, which I thought was a little unusual. I would've thought that more of them would've had professional class gear.

Photos are forthcoming. I think I got the most out of the kit lenses that anyone possibly could. I was shooting mostly in aperture priority (usually F8-F10) and ISO100. I'm a JPEG'er who has yet to see a personal benefit in shooting RAW. Most of them are "happy snaps", but I did get some pretty good sunsets and evening panos at the various ports, as well as the usual tourist photos of the statues, architecture, art, etc. I did get to dust off and use my trusty backup camera, a Panasonic FZ1, primarily for shooting from moving busses, trains, and taxis, because you just can't beat OIS for taking the tourista photos on the fly.

Again, please don't take any of this as an insult, as I loved my European vacation, but please let me know what you European members do for an equipment source, as I was really getting worried about you folks seeing all those high prices. I was thinking I'd have to come back here and setup a PayPal trust account to help out you European photo-hobbyist on a donation basis from all of us discount American photo hobbyists.

--

Chris

 
Sadly you are spot on - we pay a heck of a lot of money for our lenses. Now there are some different factors such as tax but even if I buy from the US, pay vat, duty and the international shipping it can still be quite a bit cheaper to buy in the US. If you look at Sigma pricing on the other hand, the prices are a lot closer and Sigma offer a better warranty if you buy in the EU compared to the international warranty.

I've honestly considered taking a small trip over to NY, picking up the 7-14mm and 35-100mm because it would work out a lot cheaper. It is extremely frustrating but then again it's pretty much the norm that we pay a lot more here.

John
 
The dollar is exceptionally weak at the moment, which means your dollars buy very Euros. If this continues, then the price of things in Dollars will rise, and in Euros will fall, but this is a slow process because doing this brings other costs in its wake and multinational firms generally prefer to take a hit on the weak currency area and make it up on the strong currency area, and wait and see what happens. Hence you will note Oly seem much keener on the European than the American market at the moment...

Although that is the MAJOR reason, there are three others:

1) Direct taxes are higher in Europe.

2) Other taxes are higher too. In the UK the government steals something like 49% of overall economic activity and tips it down the sewer that is public spending. This money has to come from somewhere, and it makes building, staff costs and everything else involved in selling a camera more expensive.

3) Economies of scale. The US is a larger market than any one European country.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acam
 
for a lot of reasons. Louis is spot on I think.

I buy all my gear on-line. There are some good on-line shops in germany. BUT they are not as cheap as buying in US. Adding handling / shipment and finally the 25% import tax (to Denmark) still makes it cheaper buying from US. If the difference (in total) is not big, I go for an european on-line shop. Else I buy from US.

I am glad for you that you did not have to buy new gear in Zurich... :-)

Kind regards Jørgen
http://www.pbase.com/jchriste
 
 
We make up for it in other ways; add my photographic costs to my entire family's medical costs (none) and I might get a bargain compared to you.

Regards, David

And no one's made the obvious comment about Disneyland and Nikon... what a polite lot we are.
 
Louis_Dobson said:
The dollar is exceptionally weak at the moment, which means your
dollars buy very Euros. If this continues, then the price of things
in Dollars will rise, and in Euros will fall, but this is a slow
process because doing this brings other costs in its wake and
multinational firms generally prefer to take a hit on the weak
currency area and make it up on the strong currency area, and wait
and see what happens. Hence you will note Oly seem much keener on
the European than the American market at the moment...

Although that is the MAJOR reason, there are three others:

1) Direct taxes are higher in Europe.

2) Other taxes are higher too. In the UK the government steals
something like 49% of overall economic activity and tips it down the
sewer that is public spending. This money has to come from somewhere,
and it makes building, staff costs and everything else involved in
selling a camera more expensive.

3) Economies of scale. The US is a larger market than any one
European country.
Click to expand...
Any one country yes, but I thought the EU as a whole passed the size of the USA in terms of an economic size in the last year or two.
 
Hannover is right in that one has to know where to look, just like anywhere else.

Michael Meissner: The size of the economy might be larger, but the difference in language diversity in packaging alone would probably make it significantly harder to sell to everyone - not to mention that that's only one of many factors that make the EU a more difficult market.

I'll chime in with some prices from a big Finnish web electronics store, which often has competitive prices:
Body:
E-330: 671.90 €
E-500: 449.90 €
E-400: 458.90 €
E-410: 637.90 €
E-510: 731.90 €

E-410 kit/double kit: 755.90€ 843.90€
E-510 kit/double kit: 822.90€ 907.90€

Generally, I've heard that electronics don't follow the general price level of countries in Europe. I seem to remember that Italy and Spain have very high electronics prices despite not having a horrible price level in general, whereas electronics are quite affordable in Finland (very high prices, 22% VAT, > 50% income tax for good incomes etc.). Germany is a big market with admirably fierce consumers, so they tend to have good prices for everything (and they always pay cash!)
 
Yep!

Street prices are much higher this side of the Atlantic, fortunately, we're also much better payed... not!!

In early 2007, I was looking for a Pentax 12-24 f4 in France and found it in a big retailer chain for... €1069 while B&H has the lens listed at $759 !!...

Fortunately, I could get it from a german on-line retailer for €609 at the expense of a 3 months wait.

Enjoy your (relatively) low prices!
 
Many years ago I used to get my equipment from the US. The prices were half of what i had to pay here in Norway. The prices are still lower in the US, but not quite that bad.
--
Raymond
http://www.bildebank.com
 
Wow...I would be in big trouble with She-Who-Holds-the-Money if we lived in Europe. I would have to find a different hobby...like breathing, as that was about the only thing free we did over there -- haha. Even that was probably at a cost because cigarette smoking was rampant over there compared to in the USA where there seems to be far more restrictions on smoking in public places.

I didn't even include the VAT in any of my quoted prices. We were offered some sort of VAT refund fiasco, where we could get the VAT refunded (for a small processing fee), but then we'd have to declare the items at USA Customs and pay appropriate taxes there. It would've saved us about 5-10%, but it wasn't worth the headache of having to go the specific counter at multiple airports, filing the forms, etc. We didn't buy enough to require us to declare anything at USA Customs (remember, we're a family of six and you don't have to declare something like the first $600 per person or something like that).

All I can say is...OUCH.

Interesting thing is that some electronic stuff was rather equally priced -- portable media devices, CF and SD cards, kids electronic toys, etc. I was surprised by that.

--

Chris

 
Effzeeone said:
Okay, just got back from a rather nice two week Disney cruise
Click to expand...
Effzeeone said:
We still purchased a lot of the Disney photos (mainly out
of convenience of not having to post process, print, worry about end
quality, etc.)
Click to expand...
Chris,

If you've got a minute, I'm interested in the logistics of the process.

How did the official photogs handle it - from taking the image to getting you the print?

1. How long did it take to get your pics?
2. How'd they catalog the images (so you got the ones for your family)?
3. What was the ordering procedure?

Thanks,

Ralph
 
Yet some companies like Sigma have prices which car far closer than Olympus lenses...

John
 
I guess I was spoiled. Prior to this trip out of the country, I had only previously been to the Far East (Japan, Philippines, Korea). I lived in Japan for three years (about 20 years ago) as my father served in the US Air Force. Anyway, my only experience outside of the USA was that everything was cheaper -- not more expensive. I guess I expected the same, but probably shouldn't have since most of the "toys" I like are electronics and they're made in Japan or Korea.

I told my wife I should've been like the Afrikans in Florence, Italy, except instead of selling knock-off purses, I should've bought about 1/2 dozen Panasonic L1's in the USA to resell off a blanket on a side street in Florence or Barcelona. The non-American tourists were buying those tiny little knock-off namebrand purses for $100-150. I didn't have the heart to tell them that you could get the real thing in the USA for about $50-75 more, and not risk the fine if caught by the Italian police. I'm sure I would be currently learning way too much about the Italian legal system had I tried it, but seeing those L1 and E-500 prices sure did make it tempting.

--

Chris

 
I visit the UK nearly every year, have been since 1993 or thereabouts, and have many friends there so I guess I'm accustomed to the challenges of increased prices on fuel and goods.

Best thing to do is to llve as if US prices were the same. Given the present way our US economy is going, they'll be higher than what the folks in the UK and Europe are paying pretty soon ... :-
Godfrey
http://www.gdgphoto.com

BTW, until recently the Panasonic L1 with standard lens was consistently priced at US$1699 at almost all vendors. The recent dip in prices to US $1100 or so incited me to jump on the bandwagon and get one, mostly for the lens but also because I love the design of the body ... It is as if some retailers are selling the lens and giving the body away. I am very glad I bought one, it proves to be a far better camera than any of the review press makes it out to be.
 
Effzeeone said:
But how do you European folks do it? Is it just like America where
online prices are better? If so, they'd have to be MUCH better (a
bigger difference ratio than here in America). Prior to going on the
trip, I told my wife that if my camera system was stolen or broken,
I'd just hop into one of the European stores and buy the E-510
(haha). My wife would've killed me had I paid those prices.
Click to expand...
Hahaha.. yeah.. I'm laughing but actually it's quite sad how we're being systematically ripped off. Have you seen what we're paying for gas and for our cars?

Take for example a Volkswagen Passat. Interesting, because they're made in this neck of the woods. For a moderately engined model we pay the equivalent of $61,000, whereas in the US the same model goes for a whopping $23,100. That's almost three times as cheap (and they have to ship it to the States first).

Then we have to fill up the tank. For gas (converted into US units) we pay the equivalent of $7,75 per US gallon. Again, that's 2.5 times what you guys pay. I weep when I fill up my tank, because I part with around US$108 everytime I "fill 'er up".

It's criminal. But what can you do?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
My Travel Galleries (asia, middle east, latin america)
http://www.pbase.com/brambos

 
To afford luxury goods.

The idea of owning a car, house, expensive camera in Europe is a far cry from someone in the U.S. who wants to own them. In the U.S., it's considered almost a right. Even if both parties are earning (e.g.) $50,000/yr, the tax level has huge impact. Couple it with the cost of goods in many Euro countries and you have a standard of living (at least the consumables part) that has always been much lower in Europe than the U.S. That won't change as both economies are mature and have been for a long time.
 
Bram Bos said:
Hahaha.. yeah.. I'm laughing but actually it's quite sad how we're
being systematically ripped off. Have you seen what we're paying for
gas and for our cars?

Take for example a Volkswagen Passat. Interesting, because they're
made in this neck of the woods. For a moderately engined model we pay
the equivalent of $61,000, whereas in the US the same model goes for
a whopping $23,100. That's almost three times as cheap (and they have
to ship it to the States first).

Then we have to fill up the tank. For gas (converted into US units)
we pay the equivalent of $7,75 per US gallon. Again, that's 2.5 times
what you guys pay. I weep when I fill up my tank, because I part with
around US$108 everytime I "fill 'er up".

It's criminal. But what can you do?
Click to expand...
I guess you could always move to America if you feel so hard done by?

BTW - do they have a free health service over there ;-)

--
http://www.fachwen.org
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fachwen/sets
 
Actrurus said:
I guess you could always move to America if you feel so hard done by?

BTW - do they have a free health service over there ;-)
Click to expand...
Free? Sounds like somebody is paying for it...

--
If you don't talk to your cat about catnip, who will?
 
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