"Afghan Girl" vs Digital

jrc

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Hello all. Was surprised today when I saw in the news that the famous "Afghan Girl" featured on the National Geographic mag cover in 1984, was found. If any of you old timers out there remember this, it was one of the most hauntingly beautiful photographs of a person ever, for NG. For over 17 yrs, people all over the world had been asking whatever happend to this young girl, and now it seems she's been located.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/723068.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

I have just been readiing a link on this forum debating the merits of whether or not film is dead or dying. (see "Is Film Dead"). And while I personally believe that film will be a thing of the past, Im not here to argue this point. I think it was done quiet well in the post.

Now I really love my G2, and I still love my Niknon 35 SLR's, but lately I've had a nagging, sort of depressing feeling on seeing film fall by the wayside, if it's destined to do so. And after looking at this photo of this orpahan girl in some remot refugee camp that time had almost forgot, I had to ask myself..."Would this photo have been so great and inspiring if it had been done with a digital camera?"

What I mean is does the digital photo loose some of its impact/credibility, by the mere fact that it can so easily be altered or minipulated by current/future editing in the digital darkroom? I guess I'm speeking more of documentary photography here.

An example comes to mind, that timeless photog of US Marines raising the flag at Iwo Jima. What if that had been with a digital camera? Would it have been so powerful in its message and timeless in its appeal or would people just sort of look at it and say "nice pic, but it's probably been faked."

Now I know that even film/print images can and are inhanced in the darkroom, but there's a limit to how far you can go compared with digital image manipulaton, and somehow I think as a society we will be the lesser for it.

For me, one of the great things about photography is the way it makes time timeless. That frozen fraction of second where we see what we were, who we are and where we came from. Photography has so much power as a medium. It can cause us to laugh or cry. It can motivate nations and change national opinion in ways that the human pen could never fathom before its time. It's almost spiritual in nature, yet we now have the means to look at ourselves and wonder "is that really who we were/are" or is it "Memorex?

To me it's not imortant whether or not film will diie and be replaced by digital. Images will always be with us...but will they be the right images? Will anyone care? Will art replace the message or become the message? Will the image be our pimp and we the prostitue of some instant gratification that will only last unti we need another trick as it were?

Come on, make me feel good about the future of digital. Thanks bc
 
Now I really love my G2, and I still love my Niknon 35 SLR's, but
lately I've had a nagging, sort of depressing feeling on seeing
film fall by the wayside, if it's destined to do so. And after
looking at this photo of this orpahan girl in some remot refugee
camp that time had almost forgot, I had to ask myself..."Would this
photo have been so great and inspiring if it had been done with a
digital camera?"
Yes, it would be just as powerful.
What I mean is does the digital photo loose some of its
impact/credibility, by the mere fact that it can so easily be
altered or minipulated by current/future editing in the digital
darkroom? I guess I'm speeking more of documentary photography
here.
You think that film is not altered? We are talking about the pros here with all their cool tools in the dark room. There has been plenty of manipulation of images before digital.
An example comes to mind, that timeless photog of US Marines
raising the flag at Iwo Jima. What if that had been with a digital
camera? Would it have been so powerful in its message and timeless
in its appeal or would people just sort of look at it and say "nice
pic, but it's probably been faked."
Funny example since the picture we all know is staged. It was the 2nd flag raised on Mount Suribachi. Depending on what you read the 2nd flag raising was either staged for the photographers or replacing a smaller flag with a larger flag more visible from below.
Now I know that even film/print images can and are inhanced in the
darkroom, but there's a limit to how far you can go compared with
digital image manipulaton, and somehow I think as a society we will
be the lesser for it.
Luddite. :)

Mike Roberts
 
He must have missed the recent TV documentary on National Geographic where they showed (perhaps mistakenly) digital alteration of photos. Yes, they were actually painting/cloning stuff out of the image....
What I mean is does the digital photo loose some of its
impact/credibility, by the mere fact that it can so easily be
altered or minipulated by current/future editing in the digital
darkroom? I guess I'm speeking more of documentary photography
here.
You think that film is not altered? We are talking about the pros
here with all their cool tools in the dark room. There has been
plenty of manipulation of images before digital.
 
Only if shooting with a digital somehow downgraded that photographer's skill.

James Colley wrote:

"Would this photo have been so great and inspiring if it had been done with a digital camera?"

--I hope to outgrow my G2 sooner rather than later or at the very least grow into it. http://www.pbase.com/mwisniewski
 
You're right that the nose appears to be different, but it seems like the right person to me. I think 17 plus years has made a difference....

It's interesting how they found this person. I'll never forget that National Geographic picture in 1984. I knew who that Afghanistan girl was, as soon as it was mentioned here.
--Rick
 
I was 9 years old at the time.. And Still remember that cover.

As for the Film/Digital issue.. Everything ends up going digital now anyways. Even if it comes out of the darkroom un-altered. If it is published there is a very high chance it will go digital first..

Ahhh well..
It's interesting how they found this person. I'll never forget
that National Geographic picture in 1984. I knew who that
Afghanistan girl was, as soon as it was mentioned here.
--
Rick
 
In my opinion this is one of the major weaknesses of digital.

If I use a film camera to take a photo, I have a negative (or slide) that can be used to prove that the photo hasn't been modified.

However, there isn't any technology today--that I know of anyway--that I can use to prove that a digital image is an original.

It would help if a camera could apply a digital signature and/or timestamp to an image to ensure that it could be verified, but I don't know of any mechanism that couldn't be reapplied after the fact.

This could be one of the primary reasons to use the write-once flash memory card that was recently announced.
 
An example comes to mind, that timeless photog of US Marines
raising the flag at Iwo Jima. What if that had been with a digital
camera? Would it have been so powerful in its message and timeless
in its appeal or would people just sort of look at it and say "nice
pic, but it's probably been faked."
Funny example since the picture we all know is staged. It was the
2nd flag raised on Mount Suribachi. Depending on what you read the
2nd flag raising was either staged for the photographers or
replacing a smaller flag with a larger flag more visible from below.
Just because it was the second flag, doesn't mean the photo was staged. It absolutely was not staged. It, nontheless, is an epic photo. THE most recognized image in American history.

You should get your facts straight before making such definitive statements.
 
The eyes and mouth are similar, but that nose is different. Maybe
she comes from the same village/tribe so she has very close
features, but I think the nose is too different for it to be the
same person, I could be wrong ... but ... what do you think?
According to a video concerning this story -- a video on the MSNBC site -- photographic experts compared, via computer, the irises of her eyes in both the original photo and the most recent one. Per that account, anyway, they concluded there's a 99+% certainty that the girl in the original photo and the woman photographed recently in Pakistan are one and the same. An individual's iris is apparently unique -- after the fashion of a fingerprint.

What surprised me is that this woman (who, according to the report, sometimes wears a burkha) permitted her face to be photographed once again (even though it seemed they photographed only the eyes; she kept the lower part of her face covered).

She looked worried then; she looks rather care-worn now...no surprise.

A local restaurant that serves Afghan food has a HUGE enlargement of that original National Geographic photo. I have no idea where they got such a thing. It's overpowering...
 
My local lab gives me back negatives of my digital files for free when i print them.
So what's your point?
In my opinion this is one of the major weaknesses of digital.

If I use a film camera to take a photo, I have a negative (or
slide) that can be used to prove that the photo hasn't been
modified.

However, there isn't any technology today--that I know of
anyway--that I can use to prove that a digital image is an original.

It would help if a camera could apply a digital signature and/or
timestamp to an image to ensure that it could be verified, but I
don't know of any mechanism that couldn't be reapplied after the
fact.

This could be one of the primary reasons to use the write-once
flash memory card that was recently announced.
 
In my opinion this is one of the major weaknesses of digital.

If I use a film camera to take a photo, I have a negative (or
slide) that can be used to prove that the photo hasn't been
modified.
Not all special effects are digital effects. Having a negative or slide doesn't prove the photo was not manipulated. For example, I guess you've never heard of "sandwiching" multiple negatives/slides to create a new negative/slide. That new negative/slide is modified. There are also many effects that can be done in front of the camera and recorded on a negative that result in a modified image. You don't need a computer for image trickery.
 
In my opinion this is one of the major weaknesses of digital.

If I use a film camera to take a photo, I have a negative (or
slide) that can be used to prove that the photo hasn't been
modified.
Not all special effects are digital effects. Having a negative or
slide doesn't prove the photo was not manipulated. For example, I
guess you've never heard of "sandwiching" multiple negatives/slides
to create a new negative/slide. That new negative/slide is
modified. There are also many effects that can be done in front of
the camera and recorded on a negative that result in a modified
image. You don't need a computer for image trickery.
Also, would not a RAW file be the digital version of a neg??--or am I off base?

Diane--Diane B http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleriesB/W lover, but color is seducing me
 
An example comes to mind, that timeless photog of US Marines
raising the flag at Iwo Jima. What if that had been with a digital
camera? Would it have been so powerful in its message and timeless
in its appeal or would people just sort of look at it and say "nice
pic, but it's probably been faked."
Funny example since the picture we all know is staged. It was the
2nd flag raised on Mount Suribachi. Depending on what you read the
2nd flag raising was either staged for the photographers or
replacing a smaller flag with a larger flag more visible from below.
Just because it was the second flag, doesn't mean the photo was
staged. It absolutely was not staged. It, nontheless, is an epic
photo. THE most recognized image in American history.

You should get your facts straight before making such definitive
statements.
I did check my statements you moron. There is some debate about whether it is staged, i.e. done for the image makers because the Colonel found out they did not get the raising of the flag on film, or really was done because some Colonel thought the first flag was too small.

Either way it is staged in the sense that the photographer and film maker were told this event is about to happen so be ready. Also, folk's natural interpretation is that this is THE raising of the flag Iwo Jima when it is not. It is the raising of A flag on Iwo Jima.

I agree it is an epic photo. You got any proof for your 'THE most recognized ...'?

Mike Roberts
 
However, there isn't any technology today--that I know of
anyway--that I can use to prove that a digital image is an original.
Actually there is technology to do this, just no camera has it in the camera. It would require a digital signature to be generated from the image data using a unique encryption key in the camera. They key would have to be known only by the manufacturer (actually only known by their security storage device) so that they could verify the image is the original.

Mike Roberts
 
Well, for inspiration I purchased a signed 16"x20" print of the "Afghan Girl" some time ago and it hangs in front of me in my photo work area. It is one of the most beautiful prints I have ever laid my eyes on.

And....it was printed on a somerset velvet rag paper using pigment inks and a high-end Epson inkjet. I have never seen a Cibachrome come close to capturing the subtle tonality this print contains. Not only that, but it will certainly outlive any color darkroom print by a fair margin. As far as I'm concerned, digital color printing has already surpassed the darkroom in terms of longevity, perceived quality, and paper flexibility.

On the imaging side, I think the newest 35mm digicams (I have a D1x) produce images that surpass those obtainable from most 35mm films. They may lose to low-ISO films on an absolute resolution basis, but their ability to capture noise free images more than offsets the resolution differences (IMHO). D1x prints look like they were made from MF images if there is not a lot of tiny, tiny detail.

I still shoot 4"x5" for landscapes, but I suspect we are only a few short years away from replacing it, and I look forward to the day I don't have to lug around 30 lbs of LF gear to take a photo!

If you miss the grain, you can always add some Gaussian noise...

Rich
 
this film vs. digital is bullsbleep getting or making an epic photo or such is about being in the right time and place if you are a good photographer you will get good shots regardless what medium you use
Only if shooting with a digital somehow downgraded that
photographer's skill.

James Colley wrote:
"Would this photo have been so great and inspiring if it had been
done with a digital camera?"

--
I hope to outgrow my G2 sooner rather than later or at the very
least grow into it.
http://www.pbase.com/mwisniewski
--beam me up scottyim giving it all shes got captain
 
I did check my statements you moron. There is some debate about
whether it is staged, i.e. done for the image makers because the
Colonel found out they did not get the raising of the flag on film,
or really was done because some Colonel thought the first flag was
too small.

Either way it is staged in the sense that the photographer and film
maker were told this event is about to happen so be ready. Also,
folk's natural interpretation is that this is THE raising of the
flag Iwo Jima when it is not. It is the raising of A flag on Iwo
Jima.

I agree it is an epic photo. You got any proof for your 'THE most
recognized ...'?

Mike Roberts
According to an interview with the photographer, it was staged for him. This was the common practice for news photographers up into the 60s. Real events were often replayed for the photographer. It's only been recently (at my age, 40 years is "recent") that restaging events for photographers has come into disfavor.

News magazines have been doing digital manipulation for 20 years. Before that, we had celebrated photojournalists like W. Eugene Smith working on a print for hours in the darkroom making the bare negative look like his vision of the event.
--RDKirk'It's always socially unacceptable to be right too soon.' -RAH
 
The eyes and mouth are similar, but that nose is different. Maybe
she comes from the same village/tribe so she has very close
features, but I think the nose is too different for it to be the
same person, I could be wrong ... but ... what do you think?
Differences in lighting have a dramatic effect on the appearance of the nose. That's what's happening in this case. There is also the fact that the cartilige tip of the nose changes as one ages, especially from early adolescence to adulthood, as here.

But if you look closely at the bridge just at the inner end of her right eye (at our left), notice the same bony protrudence in both photos.
--RDKirk'It's always socially unacceptable to be right too soon.' -RAH
 
The fact of whether an image was captured on film or digitally will have little impact upon its impact. The issue is the credibility of the image taker, not the credibility of his equipment. The question of the credibility of the equipment goes only to the question of its ability to accurately capture the image. After that image is captured by the equipment (film, digital or otherwise), the issue becomes one of human fallibilities and shortcomings. Though the age age of digital photography opens up the realm of image manipulation to more people, image manipulation has always been available to those who were experienced in darkroom techniques.

Its like the old saying about locks -- Locks are only there to keep the honest people honest. A talented thief will merely be slowed down by the lock, not stopped. The advent of digital photography merely makes the lock easier to open. The honest person will respect the lock. The dishonest person can now more easily break that lock, but he was going to break the lock anyway.

Cliff
 

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