What does "above average" mean.

Mathematically correct, but the man in the street is not au fait
with that kind of terminology.
The man in the street is not au fait with "au fait" either. Are you suggesting that someone should give priority to learning the meaning of "au fait" instead of "median"?

If the man on the steet wanted to convey "above median," he should say "better than most." Duh!
--
Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath
http://www.general-cathexis.com
 
Yves was most correct when he stated that average does not really have to be a hard, technical term - because it isn't!

Average is a term used generally to describe a 'typical' or 'expected' sample from a set. To that end, there are several different kind of averages:

The arithmetic mean, which most people refer to as the mean, where you add up all the numbers and divide by the number of numbers.

The arithmetic median, where approxamitely half the values are higher and half the values are lower, which is what the original poster referred to

There's also the mode, or the most common element, and after that there is the geometric mean, and it gets more obscure after that.

You can read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

But simply put, the word average denotes a number representative of the set, and doesn't imply any specific method to calculate it.
 
Irrelevant for me. I read the review on any camera I might be
interested in and don't bother looking at the recommendation
because it's so meaningless.
I strongly agree. Too many people jump to the rating and make an instant buy, no buy decision without reading the review. The reason for a rating may not have anything to do with your intended use of the camera. It sounds like there are too many mathematicians/engineers not take pictures but falling in love with the technology. I know since I was an engineer for 40 years and recognize the symptoms.
--
Bob,

'We don't make a photograph with a camera; we bring to the act of photography all the books we have read, the movies we have seen, the music we have heard and the people we have loved.' Ansel Adams

Sony R1
Canon Pro1
Casio Z750
Nikon 3100
 
Average is a term used generally to describe a 'typical' or
'expected' sample from a set.
If so, popular usage is wrong.
The arithmetic mean, which most people refer to as the mean, where
you add up all the numbers and divide by the number of numbers.
The arithmetic median, where approxamitely half the values are
higher and half the values are lower, which is what the original
poster referred to
Let's get this straight.

1. The OP wants to know what Phil Askey means by "above average"

2. If Phil's usage is in keeping with the technical community, the OP is wrong in criticizing the usage.
You can read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

But simply put, the word average denotes a number representative of
the set, and doesn't imply any specific method to calculate it.
Simply put, your last statement is wrong. Even that wikipedia page, despite its inaccuracies, does not support your last statement. "Average" is not a synonym for "measure of central tendency." Average and median are two distict and different measures of central tendency.

Consider this analogy:

measures of central tendency = spice
average = black pepper
median = nutmeg

Essentually, you are calling nutmeg "black pepper" because you think, "spice," "black pepper," and "nutmeg" are all synonyms of each other.
--
Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath
http://www.general-cathexis.com
 
Let's get this straight.

1. The OP wants to know what Phil Askey means by "above average"

2. If Phil's usage is in keeping with the technical community, the
OP is wrong in criticizing the usage.
So the question is perfectly valid: is DPReview's usage of the word "average" in keeping with the technical community? I tend to think it isn't, many think it is, but it's a valid question, isn't it? What makes the OP so wrong in posing the question?

In any case, my post wasn't related to the OP but was in response to the argument other had over what "average" really meant.
But simply put, the word average denotes a number representative of
the set, and doesn't imply any specific method to calculate it.
Simply put, your last statement is wrong. Even that wikipedia
page, despite its inaccuracies, does not support your last
statement. "Average" is not a synonym for "measure of central
tendency." Average and median are two distict and different
measures of central tendency.
Average IS an equivalent of "measure of central tendency" - what gives you the idea that it is not? Average is a broad term that includes a whole host of measures. An arithmetic median is a kind of average. An arithmetic mean is a kind of average.
Consider this analogy:

measures of central tendency = spice
average = black pepper
median = nutmeg

Essentually, you are calling nutmeg "black pepper" because you
think, "spice," "black pepper," and "nutmeg" are all synonyms of
each other.
Consider this analogy:

average = spice
median = nutmeg
mean = black pepper

Nutmeg and black pepper ARE types of spice. Oh look, I'm right after all! ... You can't just make up an analogy that you custom tailor to suit your point.
 
Quote:

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”
Benjamin Disreali

Average is a statistic in a way...

I know you will like this.. OMGosh.......

Quote: For half a century, photography has been the "art form" of the untalented. Obviously some pictures are more satisfactory than others, but where is credit due? To the designer of the camera? To the finger on the button? To the law of averages?
Gore Vidal

TomMac
 
Let's get this straight.

1. The OP wants to know what Phil Askey means by "above average"

2. If Phil's usage is in keeping with the technical community, the
OP is wrong in criticizing the usage.
So the question is perfectly valid: is DPReview's usage of the word
"average" in keeping with the technical community? I tend to think
it isn't, many think it is, but it's a valid question, isn't it?
What makes the OP so wrong in posing the question?
There is nothing wrong with the question. The OP's expectation of what "average" should mean is wrong. Only Phil knows what he means by "average."
In any case, my post wasn't related to the OP but was in response
to the argument other had over what "average" really meant.
But simply put, the word average denotes a number representative of
the set, and doesn't imply any specific method to calculate it.
Simply put, your last statement is wrong. Even that wikipedia
page, despite its inaccuracies, does not support your last
statement. "Average" is not a synonym for "measure of central
tendency." Average and median are two distict and different
measures of central tendency.
Average IS an equivalent of "measure of central tendency" - what
gives you the idea that it is not?
I have taken more courses in statistics than the average Ph.D. in math. What gives you the idea that "average" and "measure of central tendency" are synonymous?
An arithmetic median is a kind
of average.
Wrong.
Consider this analogy:

measures of central tendency = spice
average = black pepper
median = nutmeg

Essentually, you are calling nutmeg "black pepper" because you
think, "spice," "black pepper," and "nutmeg" are all synonyms of
each other.
Consider this analogy:

average = spice
median = nutmeg
mean = black pepper

Nutmeg and black pepper ARE types of spice. Oh look, I'm right
after all! ... You can't just make up an analogy that you custom
tailor to suit your point.
Average is not a category that includes median.
--
Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath
http://www.general-cathexis.com
 
the reviews usually have several interesting plus and minus points about the camera........ unusual features, strong and weak points or things missing altogether................ final picture quality does weigh heavy as it does I presume in real life............... who wants a camera that takes lousy "average" or just "above average" pics.

Above average to me means barely above mundane.
--
'The greatest joy there is in life is creating. Splurge on it!' LRH
 
Average IS an equivalent of "measure of central tendency" - what
gives you the idea that it is not?
I have taken more courses in statistics than the average Ph.D. in
math. What gives you the idea that "average" and "measure of
central tendency" are synonymous?
Well, since you have neglected to give any evidence other than "I know more than you", here is what exactly gives me that idea: all of the leading sources defining average in this way:

First result on google's define: "approximating the statistical norm or average or expected value;"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=aoV&q=define%3Aaverage&btnG=Search

Primary definition in the Webster dictionary: "a single value (as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values"
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average

The first line on Wikipedia: "In mathematics, an average, mean, or central tendency of a data set refers to a measure of the "middle" or "expected" value of the data set."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

All of these sites denote that average is simply a representation of a typical or expected sample from a set, and include not just one mode of computation, but several.
 
Average IS an equivalent of "measure of central tendency" - what
gives you the idea that it is not?
I have taken more courses in statistics than the average Ph.D. in
math. What gives you the idea that "average" and "measure of
central tendency" are synonymous?
Well, since you have neglected to give any evidence other than "I
know more than you", here is what exactly gives me that idea: all
of the leading sources defining average in this way:
You didn't ask for evidence. I told you why I disagreed with you.
First result on google's define: "approximating the statistical
norm or average or expected value;"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=aoV&q=define%3Aaverage&btnG=Search

Primary definition in the Webster dictionary: "a single value (as a
mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general
significance of a set of unequal values"
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average
Those sources do not give evidence of typical usage. It is my experience that, by far, the most typical usage for "average" is to denote a sum divided by the number of terms. Also, the others posters who similarly differentiate between "average" and "median" comprise a poll giving strong evidence of such typical usage.
The first line on Wikipedia: "In mathematics, an average, mean, or
central tendency of a data set refers to a measure of the "middle"
or "expected" value of the data set."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average
Any idiot can write for wikipedia and there are news stories of this actually happening. That opening sentence is poorly written and ambiguous. Average, mean, or central tendency do not necessarily refer to the SAME measure. In particular, the statistical definition of "mean" is very specific and unambiguous. It is the first moment of the probability distribution. (This definition is missing from that wikipedia page.) However, "central tendency" is not a specific measurement as shown by the table titled "Measures of Central Tendency." I have no argument with that table, however, had that table been titled "Averages" that would have been atypical usage.
All of these sites denote that average is simply a representation of a

typical or expected sample from a set, and include not just one mode of > computation, but several.
No, the wikipedia site doesn't because it is ambiguous, and, none of those sites provide evidence of most typical usage for "average." I am telling you that the most typical usage, by far, of "average" is to denote a sum divided by the number of terms. In statistics, "average" is most typically replaced by "sample mean" because the average is the mean of the sample distribution. In statistics, "mean" is unambiguously defined as the first moment of a probability distribution function. Also, in statistics, "expectation" is a synonym for "mean" but it has nothing to do with the layman's "expectation," nor is it necessarily an expected value.

Also, the statistical definitions of "mean" or "median" have nothing to do with typical or expected value. I can give examples of probability distributions in which mean or median represent atypical and unexpected values.
--
Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath
http://www.general-cathexis.com
 
Look at the second third sentence,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

, "The most common method, and the one generally referred to simply as the average, is the arithmetic mean."

So, if "arithmetic mean" is "generally" referred to as "average," does that imply that the most typical usage of "average" is to denote a sum divided by the number of terms? No, but it comes close enough.
--
Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath
http://www.general-cathexis.com
 
Look at the second third sentence,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

, "The most common method, and the one generally referred to simply
as the average, is the arithmetic mean."

So, if "arithmetic mean" is "generally" referred to as "average,"
does that imply that the most typical usage of "average" is to
denote a sum divided by the number of terms? No, but it comes
close enough.
Now you're talking about something completely different - you're using what the general public mistakes as for the term "average", which is fine. Most of the general public doesn't even know what a median or mode is, and just takes mean to define average.

But if you want to talk about this mathematically, or in ANY sort of scientific field, or even in the academic world, there is not a single source out there that makes this mistake - open up any statistic textbook, and not a single one will define average as "the sum divided by number of terms".

And for someone who started out making his argument by saying "I'm a statistics students who has taken more classes than most PHDs", your argument that "Well I wasn't really talking about the mathematical definition, I was talking about popular lexicon" is a cheap cop-out to admitting you were wrong about its mathematical definition.
 
Look at the second third sentence,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average
, "The most common method, and the one generally referred to simply
as the average, is the arithmetic mean."

So, if "arithmetic mean" is "generally" referred to as "average,"
does that imply that the most typical usage of "average" is to
denote a sum divided by the number of terms? No, but it comes
close enough.
But if you want to talk about this mathematically, or in ANY sort
of scientific field, or even in the academic world, there is not a
single source out there that makes this mistake - open up any
statistic textbook, and not a single one will define average as
"the sum divided by number of terms".
A rather sweeping statement. It may be true for mathematicians and formally trained statisticians, but probably not for the run of the mill scientist or academic.

You may regard this as unacceptably sloppy, but I have a counter-example in an undergraduate text book. Mary Boas defines the average as identical to the mean, in "Mathematical methods in the physical sciences", 2nd Edition, Wiley (1983), p 709.

J. F Ractliffe is closer to your position in "Elements of mathematical statistics", 2nd Ed. (1967), Oxford University Press. On page 4 he states "The mean is by far the most important average".

I suggest that in a technical context, most scientists or engineers would assume that 'Average' referred to the arithmetic mean, unless qualified explicitly as geometric mean, harmonic mean etc.

Cheers.
--
Alan Robinson
 
Clearly, on this website an "Average" camera means "it's a piece of junk."

I counted 220 reviews on this website, and it's interesting how the results break out.....

Highly Recommended.................. 83............ 38%
Recommended........................... 92............ 42%
Above Average.......................... 34............ 15%
Average.................................... 7 ............. 3%
Below Average........................... 4 ............. 2%
Not Recommended..................... 0 ............. 0%
TOTAL...................................... 220.......... 100%

People MAY assume that "average" means "middle of the pack" but here it means the products that got the worse reviews.

In fact, on this website.... 95% of the cameras rated are "above average!"
--
Marty
Panasonic FZ20, Panasonic FZ7, Olympus C7000
 
Look at the second third sentence,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

, "The most common method, and the one generally referred to simply
as the average, is the arithmetic mean."

So, if "arithmetic mean" is "generally" referred to as "average,"
does that imply that the most typical usage of "average" is to
denote a sum divided by the number of terms? No, but it comes
close enough.
Now you're talking about something completely different - you're
using what the general public mistakes as for the term "average",
which is fine. Most of the general public doesn't even know what a
median or mode is, and just takes mean to define average.

But if you want to talk about this mathematically, or in ANY sort
of scientific field, or even in the academic world, there is not a
single source out there that makes this mistake - open up any
statistic textbook, and not a single one will define average as
"the sum divided by number of terms".
Statisticians rarely say "average" (period). I couldn't find "average" or "averages" in the index of the two statistics textbooks I examined. In my experience, when statisticains say "average", it is usually applied to non-random variables such as "average distance" which is in keeping with my definition or its integral counterpart.

Also, there would be a difference between singular "average" and plural "averages," not to mention the adjective. The OP used singular "average" which is unambiguous to every technical group including statisticians.
And for someone who started out making his argument by saying "I'm
a statistics students who has taken more classes than most PHDs",
your argument that "Well I wasn't really talking about the
mathematical definition, I was talking about popular lexicon" is a
cheap cop-out to admitting you were wrong about its mathematical
definition.
I didn't say that. I have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and I have published a few papers of statistical nature in signal processing journals, e.g., see http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=17548 . This indicates that I have experience with popular term usage by statisticians in practice.

As for text and reference books, it is common practice for book writers to copy each other's errors including useless obscure definitions. The test of obscure usage is how often the term is used in practice. By "practice," I mean in communications between researchers such as in peer reviewed technical journals. Now, show me where your definition has been used in practice.
--
Author of SAR Image Processor and anomic sociopath
http://www.general-cathexis.com
 
If a camera receives Above average it's that for most users. It doesn' tell a lot about the camera when it's used by the minority who love it. I mean look at Ricoh GRD a camera that received AA. Is it a poor camera, no. It has one of the most happiest users, just go and see the Ricoh forum. People get great results, amazing infact. I bet those people would rate the camera, highly recommended.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohgrd/page12.asp

--

If a man empties his purse into his head, no one can take it away from him. An investment of knowledge always pays the best interest.
 
Average means that 50% are better and 50% are worse.

Yet in a review of an obviously lousy Casio it is rated as "above
average".

This is a total contortion of the word average.

Come on Phil, you need to use the word lousy from time to time.

I've an Olympus 740 compact and it's certainly BELOW average.
He assigned "above average" to the incredibly lousy Fuji S3, also. My opinion of the S3 isn't bad because of the image quality, but for the ancient and incredibly slow processing and the horrible Nikon body used. It was 4 years old the day it made it's debut on the market. At that time and pricing point in the DSLR world, the S3 was most certainly NOT above average.
 
The fact is that 50% of the reviews here are below average quality. It's also clear that 50% of school children are below average intelligence, 50% of all women are above the average height for women, etc, etc...
 
I had previously addressed this subject in Open Talk in my post, Only the Good Ones on Dpreview. Anyway, here are the statistics that I was able to dig up on ratings frequencies as well as types of product lines reviewed on Dpreview.

Percentage of Rating in Each Category Since 2004:

Total Reviews (2004-Present) - 128
Highly Recommended - 49 (38%)
Recommended - 63 (49%)
Above Average - 16 (12.5%)

Number of reviews per product line sold at Best Buy's website (meant to reflect what is typical of the marketplace)

Digicam Product Lines sold at Best Buy's Website:

Fuji Finepix (21 Reviews on Dpreview)
Canon Powershot (43 Reviews on Dpreview)
Nikon Coolpix (22 Reviews on Dpreview)
Sony DSC (25 Reviews on Dpreview)
Olympus (19 Reviews on Dpreview)
Kodak Easyshare (18 Reviews on Dpreview)
Casio Exilim (8 Reviews on Dpreview)
Panasonic Lumix (16 Reviews on Dpreview)
Samsung (4 Reviews on Dpreview)
Hewlett-Packard Photosmart (4 Reviews on Dpreview)

Conclusion:

Only Hewlett-Packard did garnish some Average and Below Average reviews in 2003 or earlier, so this line could be considered an Average or Below average product line by Dpreview; however, HP hardly has any decent marketshare in the Digicam market. You can also see that DPreview does review a variety of product lines, and not exclusively the "cream of the crop." Also, Dpreview does not only review the flagship models of each of the product lines, either, again, reflecting the same sentiment.

What we see here is that the "Average" review given by Dpreview is "Recommended." Even taking into account a more premium selection bias, there is simply no way that "Average" means at Dpreview anything close to it's Statistical Definition.
 
Tim...

Always remember Dpreview sells advertising, and is run for profit.

My own opinion is that this site provides the ABSOLUTE best and MOST thorough reviews in the industry. The only deficiency is in the final "conclusion" which is often startling. They spend 4,000 words telling you why a camera is "disappointing" and "misses the mark" then they call it "above average."

There may be some sentiment not to offend advertisers. This could explain why they call a piece of junk camera "above average." This also explains why Road and Track will rave about Fords and Chevys and Consumer Reports will not.

You really have to forget what these terms commonly mean, and understand that on this website, the good cameras are called "Highly Recommended" or "Recommended"... and the junk cameras are called "Above Average" and "Average."

Once you understand this code, then everything else makes sense.

--
Marty
Panasonic FZ20, Panasonic FZ7, Olympus C7000
 

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