Who does use Leica?

Jono Slack said:

Hi Joe / Tom
I'm born again from Nikon
but the feelings are exactly the same.

best wishes
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

Click to expand...

Hey Jono, you should come play at the rangefinder forum. I don't recall seeing you over there.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=68

--
Cheers,
Joe

I do a lot of sports photography, weddings and portraits. The Leica M8 doesn't have the speed or telephoto abilities for this. I am interested in the Leica because I already know how to use a rangefinder and I like the quality of the camera. I also would like a high quality (non commodity) camera which I can use manual settings and enjoy photography. No way in hell will I part with my 30D or my 5D. Those are my tools for business. I'm looking for a small high quality manual digital camera that I can take when I go to Europe with my wife and I don't feel like hauling a backpack full of lenses.

The Canon 30D is used exclusively for sports and the 5D is used for weddings, portraits and landscape photography. I use a Fuji F10 as my 'walkabout' camera.

I want to replace my Fuji with a Leica but I think it's too expensive. Don't say, "well, it's a Leica".

What aspects about the camera or the construction or the parts makes it worth 5 grand? Is it made by mystic Prussian elves who only make 100 cameras a year? Is the water used to purify the glass manufactured from north pole glaciers? Is there pixie dust on the shutter? Do makers of the camera get 11 months vacation a year and thus can only work one month per year? Are the workers blind watchmakers who make cameras in their spare time? lol

--
Pbase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/tedwill

Tedwill48170 said:

What aspects about the camera or the construction or the parts
makes it worth 5 grand?

Click to expand...

Probably the same things that make the 1DS mk II worth 7 grand?

Tedwill48170 said:

Is it made by mystic Prussian elves who
only make 100 cameras a year? Is the water used to purify the
glass manufactured from north pole glaciers? Is there pixie dust
on the shutter? Do makers of the camera get 11 months vacation a
year and thus can only work one month per year? Are the workers
blind watchmakers who make cameras in their spare time? lol

Click to expand...

Absolutely - you STILL haven't said whether you've read Mark Norton's breakdown - I suspect not, or you wouldn't be singing the same old song.

Of course you're right about sports, but if you get an M8, I don't think you'll be using your 5d for landscapes anymore.

best wishes

Tedwill48170 said:

Ted Williamson wrote:
What aspects about the camera or the construction or the parts
makes it worth 5 grand? Is it made by mystic Prussian elves who
only make 100 cameras a year? Is the water used to purify the
glass manufactured from north pole glaciers? ..

Click to expand...

Ted, western man has got it all wrong.

Cost, cost, cost -- that's all what matters to him. Of course, in the world of mass consumerism the cost plays the primary role. But is cost everything we know about life? Is cost its lifeforce?

Of course there's cost. But also an illusion of cost.
Same as there's life and an illusion of life.

My thinking was like this: let's be honest; if I continue living my life as a consumer, my life is wasted. This blue planet was not made for me being a slave of the cosumerism. I have no more time to peek at pixels, looking for noise, and no more nerves to carry around 10 pounds of equipment just to take 2 snapshots.

And there is a camera that allows me to do quite the opposite: I can carry it around, and actually feel the mid-summer's breeze tapping me on my shoulder. Also, oh look, there's some beautiful, silverish morning mist, filled with the beautiful scent of wild lavender. Seascape is beautiful, and see, there's some beautiful reflection in the water, lets see that miracle.

Suddenly, I was able to perceive things I didn't see before, feel things I didn't feel before. I'm not looking for a subject in a DSLR manner anymore. Before, I was looking around looking for something "worthy" to be taken, desperately looking for an excuse to carry around that bloody equipment.

Now, I look around and see so many wonderful things and somehow my hands naturally follow the feling and I'm taking photos based on inner emotions, not just my mind's calculations.
I'm born again.

===
Tom Pariz

I did read it, and I know that the X-Box 360 has more electronics in it and it sells for $399.00. And yes, it's outsourced to 37 different countries with a supply chain utilizing the lowest cost vendors. I get it. Leica is hand made and very sophisticated.

But this isn't 1960 where a company like Leica makes a body that lasts for decades. This is the era of major milestones every year or so in the R&D of digital photography. In the 30's 40s and 50s, the camera market consisted of fewer companies and technology that focused around lenses and exposure. The basic technology of image capture was consistent for a long time. Today, change is the only thing that is constant. I sell my old Canons on eBay an upgrade to new bodies every couple of years. The lenses have been with me a for a long time. My concern about the M8 is that it won't have the staying power in the market that Leica had in the analog world.

I wouldn't buy the 1Ds MK II for $8,000 either. That camera is way overpriced and I complained a lot about it in the Canon forum. When the 5d came out, I was happy to see a camera of this quality under 3 grand. I spent $2700 on my 5d which is just about the right price for a full frame. I don't regret it for a second. I can afford the 1Ds MK II, and it would be a business expense that I would write off since I'm incorporated, but I don't like to spend more money that I think something is woth. And I know I could use the Leica in professional settings and legitimately use it for business purposes. But when you factor in the new lenses and potentially a second body, we're well over 15 thousand.

And yes, I did read Mark Norton's entry in the Leica User Forum.

My point is that even with the breakdown of how it's built, I still dont' see why it needs to be 5 grand. I work for a major software company and I deal with hardware vendors and I know what the manufacturing costs for small electronics are. I don't deny that the Leica is a wonderful piece of equipment in the way a Ferarri is, but I wouldn't buy one of those either.
--
Pbase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/tedwill

Tom Pariz said:

Of course there's cost. But also an illusion of cost.
Same as there's life and an illusion of life.

My thinking was like this: let's be honest; if I continue living my
life as a consumer, my life is wasted. This blue planet was not
made for me being a slave of the cosumerism. I have no more time to
peek at pixels, looking for noise, and no more nerves to carry
around 10 pounds of equipment just to take 2 snapshots.

And there is a camera that allows me to do quite the opposite: I
can carry it around, and actually feel the mid-summer's breeze
tapping me on my shoulder. Also, oh look, there's some beautiful,
silverish morning mist, filled with the beautiful scent of wild
lavender. Seascape is beautiful, and see, there's some beautiful
reflection in the water, lets see that miracle.

Suddenly, I was able to perceive things I didn't see before, feel
things I didn't feel before. I'm not looking for a subject in a
DSLR manner anymore. Before, I was looking around looking for
something "worthy" to be taken, desperately looking for an excuse
to carry around that bloody equipment.

Now, I look around and see so many wonderful things and somehow my
hands naturally follow the feling and I'm taking photos based on
inner emotions, not just my mind's calculations.
I'm born again.

Click to expand...

I think I'll use this argument with my wife.

When I don't want to carry a lot, I take my 5D on trips with just one lens (usually the 24-70 f2.8) and yes, it's heavy, but I can skip a trip to the gym.

I like what you're saying and I think it gives me a lot to ponder over. Thanks for your eloquence Tom.

--
Pbase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/tedwill

Hi Ted
of course, you don't have to have one (neither did I).

Leica do seem to be making a profit for the first time in some years, but it doesn't seem to be excessive.

I'm afraid that the ferrari comparison is apposite, in that they don't produce enough cameras for the economies of scale to really kick in - and they never will (no autofocus, not program mode, no scene mode etc. etc.)

But I think I can see some value in it - maybe you'll find some too.

best wishes
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

Tom

My hat of to you you have a good way of summing up why someone would use such a anachronistic device as a manual Leica in Century 21
thanks
Mark
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/

Tedwill48170 said:

When I don't want to carry a lot, I take my 5D on trips with just
one lens (usually the 24-70 f2.8) and yes, it's heavy, but I can
skip a trip to the gym.

Click to expand...

Hi Ted,

5D plus 24-70, great combo but weighs 1.9 Kilos and is very obvious!

Leica M8 plus one lens - say 28mm elmarit weighs 0.8 Kilos and is so small it is not seen.

I poo-hooed all this Leica stuff until I bought one. Travelling light and being inconspicuous makes a massive difference. Mind you I have never been to the gym,

Best Jeff

Ted Williamson said:

My point is that even with the breakdown of how it's built, I still
dont' see why it needs to be 5 grand. I don't deny that
the Leica is a wonderful piece of equipment in the way a Ferarri
is, but I wouldn't buy one of those either.

Click to expand...

OK, so don't buy it.

If you don't see the value -- either in terms of the absolute costs of R&D, manufacture, distribution, advertising, repairs etc., or in terms of what you get vis-a-vis other $5K (or far far more expensive) cameras (like the Hasselblad) -- then the M8 is not a value proposition for you. Fine.

I assure you that there are many many Canon owners who feel the same way about your 5D as you do about the M8 -- ie that "it's WAY over-priced." Hey if an X-Box is $399 why shouldn't a 5D be $399 too? After all it's just a box with a mirror and a shutter in it! ;-)

At one point I considered a 5D but thought it "too expensive," same with the D2Xs, so I bought a D200 and started looking at new lenses. And then I got some of my first really good lenses for that D200 and learned that, yes, there IS a difference and sometimes a $2K lens IS just that much better than a $200 lens.

Hey I swallowed hard to buy the M8, but am not a bit sorry. In fact it's so good that I will be selling off some Nikon gear (some of it very expensive) as just plain redundant.

BTW, if you really do want an M8, better get it now, since the price is rumored to be GOING UP in June!
--
Cheers,
Joe

Ted Williamson said:

I did read it, and I know that the X-Box 360 has more electronics
in it and it sells for $399.00. And yes, it's outsourced to 37
different countries with a supply chain utilizing the lowest cost
vendors. I get it. Leica is hand made and very sophisticated.

But this isn't 1960 where a company like Leica makes a body that
lasts for decades. This is the era of major milestones every year
or so in the R&D of digital photography. In the 30's 40s and 50s,
the camera market consisted of fewer companies and technology that
focused around lenses and exposure. The basic technology of image
capture was consistent for a long time. Today, change is the only
thing that is constant. I sell my old Canons on eBay an upgrade to
new bodies every couple of years. The lenses have been with me a
for a long time. My concern about the M8 is that it won't have the
staying power in the market that Leica had in the analog world.

I wouldn't buy the 1Ds MK II for $8,000 either. That camera is way
overpriced and I complained a lot about it in the Canon forum.
When the 5d came out, I was happy to see a camera of this quality
under 3 grand. I spent $2700 on my 5d which is just about the
right price for a full frame. I don't regret it for a second. I
can afford the 1Ds MK II, and it would be a business expense that I
would write off since I'm incorporated, but I don't like to spend
more money that I think something is woth. And I know I could use
the Leica in professional settings and legitimately use it for
business purposes. But when you factor in the new lenses and
potentially a second body, we're well over 15 thousand.

And yes, I did read Mark Norton's entry in the Leica User Forum.

My point is that even with the breakdown of how it's built, I still
dont' see why it needs to be 5 grand. I work for a major software
company and I deal with hardware vendors and I know what the
manufacturing costs for small electronics are. I don't deny that
the Leica is a wonderful piece of equipment in the way a Ferarri
is, but I wouldn't buy one of those either.
--
Pbase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/tedwill

Click to expand...

--there is much more involved in the pricing of the camera than just the materials bill. As you say you have been involved in buying hardware for years so you know that labor costs vary greatly around the world and that the value of the euro to dollar for instance now is very much in favor of the euro. Taking the labor cost and the exchange rates I think Leica did an amazing feat getting the camera in at under five grand. I am told by a friend in the business that a big price hike for all leica stuff is comming soon as the dollar keeps dropping.

So taking into account all the various factors mention in the following and some I didnt think of maybe it will help understand why the price is pegged where it is.
First: top quality materials usually the best that can be had.
second: Very high labor cost on a world comparison
third: extremly low production figures
fourth: large amount of hand assembly related to labor cost
So thats what the pricing is mostly based on.

Leica's problem was and is that in order to survive as a camera maker they had to make a digital m there were really no other viable choices.

But not only did they have to make a digital M but it also had to be backwards compatible with there M lens line as much as possible as Leica recognized early on that folks who already own M lenses would be an enormous customer base. If they had been able to design a new camera from the ground up and a new lens line just for that camera its possible that the price could have been marginly lower but I donno.

For those who think the price is inflated to maximise profit I seriously doubt that. Leica needed to make a hit with this camera and the bean counters at Leica know that even at 4795 its expensive and I would bet the farm that they have cut their per unit profit as close to the bone as they can in order to sell more units. Its not about mistique its about servival as a cameramaker.

There is also another factor to consider. Using an annalogy to Hi Fi when you reach what is commonly called the threshold (pun intended) of high end doubling what you pay does not double the performance and even slight increases in performence comes at ever greater increases in cost.

Given all the above its not surprising the Leica cost as much as it does but that it costs as little as it does.

Bottom line is if the camera dilivers resaults you want, you like the way it handles and sees, and you can afford
bosjohn aka John Shick [email protected]

Thanks for your insight on this John.

I understand what you're saying about this, especially with regard to labor costs. I'm probably going to buy this anyway. I always do this just before I buy a new camera, I ***** about the price, I justify the price, I buy it, I have fun. Sigh.
--
Pbase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/tedwill

Ted Williamson said:

Thanks for your insight on this John.

I understand what you're saying about this, especially with regard
to labor costs. I'm probably going to buy this anyway. I always
do this just before I buy a new camera, I ***** about the price, I
justify the price, I buy it, I have fun. Sigh.

Click to expand...

Buy it, and have fun (you surely will) and if they do put the price up (wouldn't surprise me) then you'll feel even better

best wishes
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk