PS and ICC Profile questions.

MTT · Mar 27, 2007

When I open a file in PS CS2, I open it as sRGB. When I save the file as a JPEG, the ICC Profile box is checked to save as a sRGB, which make sense to me. But when I do this, the colors are off when the file is open in Internet Explorer. Mostly reds, where the reds are more orange. When saving the file with the ICC Profile unchecked, the image looks fine. Why is this? I would think if you PP a file as sRGB, you should save it as sRGB.

Also, I have my monitor calibrated with Spyder 2. When I do this, PS will use this Profile as a working space. Should I keep it this way or use sRGB instead? Really, I can’t see a difference either way.

Thanks,

Mark

--

Church Event Photographer

Full time auto tech, part time photographer. Mark Thompson/MTT
Louisville, KY. USA

Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'.. but it's only a 'penny for your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?

http://mtt.smugmug.com/

MTT · Mar 28, 2007

MTT said:
When I open a file in PS CS2, I open it as sRGB. When I save the
file as a JPEG, the ICC Profile box is checked to save as a sRGB,
which make sense to me. But when I do this, the colors are off when
the file is open in Internet Explorer. Mostly reds, where the reds
are more orange. When saving the file with the ICC Profile
unchecked, the image looks fine. Why is this? I would think if you
PP a file as sRGB, you should save it as sRGB.

Also, I have my monitor calibrated with Spyder 2. When I do this,
PS will use this Profile as a working space. Should I keep it this
way or use sRGB instead? Really, I can’t see a difference either
way.

Thanks,

Mark

Peano · Mar 28, 2007

MTT said:
Also, I have my monitor calibrated with Spyder 2. When I do this,
PS will use this Profile as a working space. Should I keep it this
way or use sRGB instead?

I assume that your working space designation (for RGB) in color settings looks like this:

If so, try changing it to this:

If you've already tried this and it made no difference, I'm at a loss to know what's wrong. Maybe others can offer a suggestion?
--
~ Peano

cspringer · Mar 28, 2007

When you click Edit/Convert to Profile is it an sRGB file? If not, you need to convert it. However, many people seem to be having the same problem (including myself). Suddenly after years of editing Save for Web files are oversaturated and much more contrasty, losing detail in the shadows. I'm using the same settings I've always used.

MTT said:
When I open a file in PS CS2, I open it as sRGB. When I save the
file as a JPEG, the ICC Profile box is checked to save as a sRGB,
which make sense to me. But when I do this, the colors are off when
the file is open in Internet Explorer. Mostly reds, where the reds
are more orange. When saving the file with the ICC Profile
unchecked, the image looks fine. Why is this? I would think if you
PP a file as sRGB, you should save it as sRGB.

Also, I have my monitor calibrated with Spyder 2. When I do this,
PS will use this Profile as a working space. Should I keep it this
way or use sRGB instead? Really, I can’t see a difference either
way.

Thanks,

Mark

--

Church Event Photographer

Full time auto tech, part time photographer. Mark Thompson/MTT
Louisville, KY. USA

Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'.. but it's only a 'penny
for your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?

http://mtt.smugmug.com/

MTT · Mar 28, 2007

Peano said:
I assume that your working space designation (for RGB) in color
settings looks like this:

First off, what software did you use to capture these? I tried the same using Snagit, but it would not capture the text in the box.

Yes to both, but my CMYK may be different I will check tonight. I tried it both ways and seen no difference between the two profiles.

Also, as long as my ICC profile box is not checked, the image color will stay the same when saved as a JPEG. And no matter what profile I use, sRGB or Spyder, the image color will change if I have the box checked. Do you check or uncheck the ICC Profile box when you save the image as a JPEG?

Thanks for the help,

Mark

Member said:
If so, try changing it to this:

If you've already tried this and it made no difference, I'm at a
loss to know what's wrong. Maybe others can offer a suggestion?
--
~ Peano

--

Church Event Photographer

Full time auto tech, part time photographer. Mark Thompson/MTT
Louisville, KY. USA

Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'.. but it's only a 'penny for your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?

http://mtt.smugmug.com/

MTT · Mar 28, 2007

cspringer said:
When you click Edit/Convert to Profile is it an sRGB file? If not,
you need to convert it.

I will check this tonight, but I'm assuming it will say sRGB since the ICC Profile box has sRGB IEC61966-2.1 next to it when I click save as. Also, even though the original RAW are aRGB [I use Nikon Capture to transfer the file to PS], I have PS to open the file as sRGB.

cspringer said:
However, many people seem to be having the
same problem (including myself). Suddenly after years of editing
Save for Web files are oversaturated and much more contrasty,
losing detail in the shadows. I'm using the same settings I've
always used.

Funny that you would say this, even though I don't use save for web, I also been using the same setting ever since PS 7. Now I just notice that my colors are off when I have the ICC Profle box checked. My last set was really noticable. I guess this is due to the images being really red.

When you save your images as JPEG, do you have the ICC Profile box checked or unchecked?

Thanks for the help,

Mark

cspringer said:
MTT said:

When I open a file in PS CS2, I open it as sRGB. When I save the
file as a JPEG, the ICC Profile box is checked to save as a sRGB,
which make sense to me. But when I do this, the colors are off when
the file is open in Internet Explorer. Mostly reds, where the reds
are more orange. When saving the file with the ICC Profile
unchecked, the image looks fine. Why is this? I would think if you
PP a file as sRGB, you should save it as sRGB.

Also, I have my monitor calibrated with Spyder 2. When I do this,
PS will use this Profile as a working space. Should I keep it this
way or use sRGB instead? Really, I can’t see a difference either
way.

Thanks,

Mark

Click to expand...

Peano · Mar 28, 2007

MTT said:
First off, what software did you use to capture these? I tried the
same using Snagit, but it would not capture the text in the box.

I use FastStone Capture. It's free here:
http://www.faststone.org/FSCaptureDetail.htm

MTT said:
Yes to both, but my CMYK may be different I will check tonight. I
tried it both ways and seen no difference between the two profiles.

Also, as long as my ICC profile box is not checked, the image color
will stay the same when saved as a JPEG. And no matter what
profile I use, sRGB or Spyder, the image color will change if I
have the box checked. Do you check or uncheck the ICC Profile box
when you save the image as a JPEG?

I check the ICC profile box. So far, I haven't experienced the color change that you describe. Might be worth posting this problem on the Tek-tips Photoshop forum:
http://www.tek-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=229

--
~ Peano

Wolfgang · Mar 28, 2007

Maybe you check if the monitor profile is used by Windos. Right click on the Desktop> Properties> Settings> Advanced> Color Management. Here your monitor profile should be present as default. If not, click on ADD and find it in the opening folder.
--
Wolfgang

MTT · Mar 28, 2007

Peano said:
MTT said:

First off, what software did you use to capture these? I tried the
same using Snagit, but it would not capture the text in the box.

Click to expand...

I use FastStone Capture. It's free here:
http://www.faststone.org/FSCaptureDetail.htm

Thanks, I will give it a try.

Member said:
I check the ICC profile box. So far, I haven't experienced the
color change that you describe. Might be worth posting this problem
on the Tek-tips Photoshop forum:
http://www.tek-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=229

Thanks for the link, if I can't find the answer here I will give tek-tips a try. This may be a recent development since I haven't notice this before. But I have not change any setting on my PC. Well not that I'm aware of. To me, the box should be checked.

Mark

Member said:
--
~ Peano

--

Church Event Photographer

Full time auto tech, part time photographer. Mark Thompson/MTT
Louisville, KY. USA

Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'.. but it's only a 'penny for your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?

http://mtt.smugmug.com/

MTT · Mar 29, 2007

Wolfgang said:
Maybe you check if the monitor profile is used by Windos. Right
click on the Desktop> Properties> Settings> Advanced> Color Management.
Here your monitor profile should be present as default. If not,
click on ADD and find it in the opening folder.
--

But it's all ready high lighted. Thanks for the suggestion.

Mark

MTT · Mar 29, 2007

I been trying different profiles to see which works the best and so for some reason it's sRGB, which I will explian in a few minutes.

First all, here's one of the images I been working on. This image was saved using Spyder profile in PS with ICC Profile box unchecked.

Here's the color settings I used in PS.

--

Church Event Photographer

Full time auto tech, part time photographer. Mark Thompson/MTT
Louisville, KY. USA

Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'.. but it's only a 'penny for your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?

http://mtt.smugmug.com/

MTT · Mar 29, 2007

This forum really needs an edit button.

MTT wrote:
I been trying different profiles to see which works the best and so
for some reason it's sRGB, which I will explian in a few minutes.

First all, here's one of the images I been working on. This image
was saved using Spyder profile in PS with ICC Profile box unchecked.

Here's the color settings I used in PS to save this image.

Here's where it gets confusing. If I save this image with the ICC profile box checked the image will look like this. Notice that the red is more orange. The weird thing is, the image only looks like this when viewed in picture viewer [I use windows XP]. I just realized last night if I look at this image on Smugmug or Infanveiw the image looks like what I see in PS. The image I posted below is a screenshot so you can see what I see.

Also, if I change color settings to this,

The image will look like this when open in PS. Again the colors are off. I'm assuming this is due to color management policies being turned off. Using this color space, PS will not allow me to switch to convert to working RGB. So this is not the color profile to use.

Now this is what really confused me. If I switch to working space sRGB then the images looks the same with or without the ICC Profile box checked. What I see in PS is what I see in picture viewer. Now I know I stated earlier that it did make a difference with the ICC box checked or not checked, but now it's not. And I'm not sure what I did to correct this problem. I know I'm using the same settings as I started out with. At least I think I did. Here’s what I'm using as of now. I think I'm back where I started.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome. Do I need to change any settings?

Mark

MTT · Mar 30, 2007

Peano said:
MTT said:

Also, I have my monitor calibrated with Spyder 2. When I do this,
PS will use this Profile as a working space. Should I keep it this
way or use sRGB instead?

Click to expand...

I assume that your working space designation (for RGB) in color
settings looks like this:

This is not the best color space to use, if I use this one the colors will be off as soon as I open the file in PS. I think this is due to the color management being turned off. sRGB works the best. Which profile do you use for working space?

Mark

UncleMikey · Mar 30, 2007

My experience has been the same as yours ... exactly....

Even the part about never noticing this before but all of a sudden the problem is there.

It goes like this for me.... I first view my pics as RAW in Capture One. I adjust color temp etc and then convert to sRGB (as I have always done) and then open the images in PS CS2. The images look fine so far.

I then do whatever other editing I might want to do in CS2 and save the image, embedding the ICC sRGB profile, exactly as I have always done.

Now, if I happen to view that image again in PS or if I have it printed ( I use WHCC) the image will look just fine.

BUT....if I happen to view that image in any of several other programs (outlook express, various 'picture viewers', even BreezeBrowser, it will look overly red-orange, REALLY overly red or orange.

I use a NEC 2109 monitor and calibrate with their spectraview software. There is only one profile selected on my color mgt tab, the one created by spectraview, and the same profile is selected in PS and capture one.

I run a fairly busy photo business and I don't have the time to mess with photo editiing issues. My PRINTS look the same as PS so I have been able to ignore the problem thus far, but I don't know for sure how these overly red-orange images look to my clients when I email them.

It is very wierd that I have never had this problem before, and never read about it, but now several people are reporting it.

There must be some explanation.

Mike

wwollert · Mar 30, 2007

MTT,

I have the earlier version of the spyder but I think the interface is close. Launch color cal. A window will come up with Lum, WB, gamma and monitor type. Does this window have an "enable profile" check box? Is it checked? If not, check it. Your profile, and monitor image color, will change when you do this.

If there was a change, here is the reason (I think) after looking around the web. When the new profile is generated it asks you if you want the profile as the windows default. A yes will set up some things but not tell windows that the new profile is the one to use as its' default. That is what the check box is for. Something is set in windows to tell it to use the new profile when that box is checked. All the apps that are not CM sensitive use this as the default. PS recognizes the new profile without needing the check box. This is why your prints match PS. If the above works then do what I do; Load the cal routine in your startup folder. It will launch at startup and set the system default profile to yours.

Your "working space" in PS is the internal canvas that PS uses. The profiles for; monitors, printers, scanners, etc., are translators for getting the color gamut converted to/from that canvas. I use aRGB as my working space because of its' wider gamut and have my camera set for that also. I shoot in RAW so, in most cases, the input profile doesn't matter. RAW is camera setting independent. The converter of choice will use the settings as guidelines but you have the option of changing them at anytime.

You can convert to sRGB at anytime, such as for the web, but the image should have the widest available gamut for working in and saving. I would rather have a 10' rope and cut off 2' rather than trying to stretch 6' to 8'.

If you are bound and determined to stay in sRGB then PS's working space must be in sRGB to maintain consistency. You would have to change the working space every time you re-calibrated your monitor if you used the monitor profile as your working space. Also, I think, the embedded profile would be the monitors' rather than a standard (sRGB, aRGB, etc.) which would make it messy for browsers.
How much is smoke and mirrors? Dunno, give it a try and see.
Walter

cspringer · Mar 30, 2007

I'll try it tonight.

wwollert said:
MTT,
I have the earlier version of the spyder but I think the interface
is close. Launch color cal. A window will come up with Lum, WB,
gamma and monitor type. Does this window have an "enable profile"
check box? Is it checked? If not, check it. Your profile, and
monitor image color, will change when you do this.
If there was a change, here is the reason (I think) after looking
around the web. When the new profile is generated it asks you if
you want the profile as the windows default. A yes will set up some
things but not tell windows that the new profile is the one to use
as its' default. That is what the check box is for. Something is
set in windows to tell it to use the new profile when that box is
checked. All the apps that are not CM sensitive use this as the
default. PS recognizes the new profile without needing the check
box. This is why your prints match PS. If the above works then do
what I do; Load the cal routine in your startup folder. It will
launch at startup and set the system default profile to yours.
Your "working space" in PS is the internal canvas that PS uses. The
profiles for; monitors, printers, scanners, etc., are translators
for getting the color gamut converted to/from that canvas. I use
aRGB as my working space because of its' wider gamut and have my
camera set for that also. I shoot in RAW so, in most cases, the
input profile doesn't matter. RAW is camera setting independent.
The converter of choice will use the settings as guidelines but you
have the option of changing them at anytime.
You can convert to sRGB at anytime, such as for the web, but the
image should have the widest available gamut for working in and
saving. I would rather have a 10' rope and cut off 2' rather than
trying to stretch 6' to 8'.
If you are bound and determined to stay in sRGB then PS's working
space must be in sRGB to maintain consistency. You would have to
change the working space every time you re-calibrated your monitor
if you used the monitor profile as your working space. Also, I
think, the embedded profile would be the monitors' rather than a
standard (sRGB, aRGB, etc.) which would make it messy for browsers.
How much is smoke and mirrors? Dunno, give it a try and see.
Walter

byutanner · Mar 30, 2007

You can also hit your print screen button and then paste into paint (assuming windows here)

And for the color space I hear make sure you use sRGB, that you can see your monitor profile shows it is using your profile, but your image would look poor if printed or displayed using the Spyder profile, but that is what I have read. I haven't verified...
--
Jason
http://tannerphotography.net

UncleMikey · Mar 30, 2007

Here's a question On my system I am using a two head Nvidia card and calibrating with Spectraview - NEC monitor. When I go to WINDOWS> DISPLAY> ADVANCED> COLOR, it shows the correct profile created by SPectraview but it also shows another profile "DTNK93K"

When I try to delete this profile I get a message saying there was a problem 'disassociating" the profile, and it does not get deleted.

Also, I have a program called Nview that installed with the grafics card. I am thinking that it is having some impact on my color behavior but I am not sure how I can or if I should uninstall it.

Ideas on these things?

Mike

cspringer · Mar 30, 2007

what version do you have?

wwollert said:
MTT,
I have the earlier version of the spyder but I think the interface
is close. Launch color cal. A window will come up with Lum, WB,
gamma and monitor type. Does this window have an "enable profile"
check box? Is it checked? If not, check it. Your profile, and
monitor image color, will change when you do this.
If there was a change, here is the reason (I think) after looking
around the web. When the new profile is generated it asks you if
you want the profile as the windows default. A yes will set up some
things but not tell windows that the new profile is the one to use
as its' default. That is what the check box is for. Something is
set in windows to tell it to use the new profile when that box is
checked. All the apps that are not CM sensitive use this as the
default. PS recognizes the new profile without needing the check
box. This is why your prints match PS. If the above works then do
what I do; Load the cal routine in your startup folder. It will
launch at startup and set the system default profile to yours.
Your "working space" in PS is the internal canvas that PS uses. The
profiles for; monitors, printers, scanners, etc., are translators
for getting the color gamut converted to/from that canvas. I use
aRGB as my working space because of its' wider gamut and have my
camera set for that also. I shoot in RAW so, in most cases, the
input profile doesn't matter. RAW is camera setting independent.
The converter of choice will use the settings as guidelines but you
have the option of changing them at anytime.
You can convert to sRGB at anytime, such as for the web, but the
image should have the widest available gamut for working in and
saving. I would rather have a 10' rope and cut off 2' rather than
trying to stretch 6' to 8'.
If you are bound and determined to stay in sRGB then PS's working
space must be in sRGB to maintain consistency. You would have to
change the working space every time you re-calibrated your monitor
if you used the monitor profile as your working space. Also, I
think, the embedded profile would be the monitors' rather than a
standard (sRGB, aRGB, etc.) which would make it messy for browsers.
How much is smoke and mirrors? Dunno, give it a try and see.
Walter

MTT · Apr 1, 2007

UncleMikey said:
My experience has been the same as yours ... exactly....

Even the part about never noticing this before but all of a sudden
the problem is there.

It goes like this for me.... I first view my pics as RAW in Capture
One. I adjust color temp etc and then convert to sRGB (as I have
always done) and then open the images in PS CS2. The images look
fine so far.

The only difference for me is I PP my RAWS in Nikon Capture and then send to PS CS2 as aRGB. I PP them in NC as aRGB because all my shots are shot as aRGB. When I send the image to PS, the image is then converted to sRGB when the file is first open in PS. If I change to sRGB in NC, that will cause the image color to change to much for my taste. Changing to sRGB in PS keeps the original color. If there is a change, I can't see it.

UncleMikey said:
I then do whatever other editing I might want to do in CS2 and save
the image, embedding the ICC sRGB profile, exactly as I have always
done.

Same here.

UncleMikey said:
Now, if I happen to view that image again in PS or if I have it
printed ( I use WHCC) the image will look just fine.

Sounds right.

UncleMikey said:
BUT....if I happen to view that image in any of several other
programs (outlook express, various 'picture viewers', even
BreezeBrowser, it will look overly red-orange, REALLY overly red or
orange.

In my case, when I look at the images in Internet Explorer, Irfanview and even outlook express, the images look fine. Right now I only see the difference using XP picture viewer.

UncleMikey said:
I use a NEC 2109 monitor and calibrate with their spectraview
software. There is only one profile selected on my color mgt
tab, the one created by spectraview, and the same profile is
selected in PS and capture one.

I think the same here. When I profile my monitor with Spyder, PS will use this and also my monitor color management. Not sure about Nikon Capture. But now I have PS color space set to use sRGB and as of now, which I'm not sure why, the images look the same when viewed in XP picture viewer with or without the ICC Profile boxed check. When I first posted, this wasn't the case. Only when I unchecked the ICC Profile box using sRGB that my images will look the same using picture viewer. Not sure what changed. As of now, when I use the Profile that Spyder created in PS working space, I will have this problem.

UncleMikey said:
I run a fairly busy photo business and I don't have the time to
mess with photo editiing issues. My PRINTS look the same as PS so
I have been able to ignore the problem thus far, but I don't know
for sure how these overly red-orange images look to my clients when
I email them.

Good point, but I quit worrying about that when I realized that not all monitors are calibrated the same. Most are default to 9300 temp and if these monitor are not calibrated 6500, then the colors are not going to match mine.

UncleMikey said:
It is very wierd that I have never had this problem before, and
never read about it, but now several people are reporting it.

There must be some explanation.

I just recently downloaded the latest updates from Microsoft, is it possible that these updates may have something to do with it?

Thanks for your input Mike,

Mark

UncleMikey said:
Mike

--

Church Event Photographer

Full time auto tech, part time photographer. Mark Thompson/MTT
Louisville, KY. USA

Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'.. but it's only a 'penny for your thoughts'? Where's that extra penny going to?

http://mtt.smugmug.com/

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