MR reviews the ZD

PIXSurgeon · Mar 28, 2007

JohnSavage said:
So what would you know?

...Do you want the answer? A SH_T LOAD to (at least, at the very minimum) recognize when a manufacturer seems to be doing its job (or not)...

Or you still can't tell?

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Bernard Languillier · Mar 28, 2007

The ZD is clear example that the above relationship is not true.

Regards,
Bernard

Bernard Languillier · Mar 28, 2007

sneakyracer said:
$15k USD for that, I wouldnt touch it. Its a tough sell now, even
tougher in a few months when the 1Dsmk3 comes out.

That's really not the way pros loke at it.

The question is more whether 15KUS$ can deliver more margin than another camera or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

J A K · Mar 28, 2007

If the DR of the ZD at low ISOs is superior then the noise must be less. Do you have any comparison pictures? If you don't, it is okay, I understand, but if you do I would like to take a look at your comparison shots.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

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Chubly · Mar 29, 2007

If Nikon had implemented more DX lenses including primes and got a real handle on noise then the DX could be more viable for many seroius/pros. As it stand the DX does not beat out Canon's version of aps-c.

The 1DS 2 and soon to be 3 are very efficient 35mm designs with good IQ. The Mamiya could be better but isn't. Some people need the medium format advantages now but many will be happy with te extensive ESO system.

J A K said:
If the DR of the ZD at low ISOs is superior then the noise must be
less. Do you have any comparison pictures? If you don't, it is
okay, I understand, but if you do I would like to take a look at
your comparison shots.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia/original

SEARCHING FOR A BETTER SELF PORTRAIT

Ah Pek · Mar 29, 2007

--
'The majesticness of that duck is overwhelming!' - Bulbol

JohnSavage · Mar 29, 2007

No I don't own or use a ZD nor would I pretend to the world that I know how it behaves. You can only really understand a camera's potential if you've used it, is that too hard to grasp? Look you can jerk off over your pixels as much as you like it really isn’t up to Bernard to prove anything. If you want to make a point hire a ZD do your little tests and show a world that doesn’t give a rats ass what you think how wonderful you are at wasting time.

Bernard Languillier · Mar 29, 2007

J A K said:
If the DR of the ZD at low ISOs is superior then the noise must be
less. Do you have any comparison pictures? If you don't, it is
okay, I understand, but if you do I would like to take a look at
your comparison shots.

JAK,

Physics is based on experiments, not just theory.

My experiments show that the ZD does have more DR at low ISO, and also more noise from ISO 200 upwards. The same goes for all the other medium format digital backs, as a simple search will reveal to you.

You can either question this experimental evidence reported by thousands of photographers and manufacturers alike, or question the validity of your models. The choice is yours.

My personnal interest is photography.

Regards,
Bernard

sneakyracer · Mar 29, 2007

Bernard, I am a Pro, Full Time Advertising Photographer, its my only income. I need reliable gear that works in a wide variety of conditions. Right now Canon is it, also PhaseOne seems like it is. The H1/2 system is questionable. Also, speed is key. The Mamiya is just to dang slow. In supervised shoots it would be a disaster to have to wait so long for the images to show, the buffer to clear. The Image quality of the Mamiya seems it would be nice in studio with my profotos but in some of the samples the quality of the file doesnt impress me.

Rather not risk it and use the 5D and 1Dsmk2.

Phase One backs are pretty bulletproof, the Hassy H1/2 well, its dicey but unfortunally its the only MF Digital system that has a high flash sync speed.

Bernard Languillier said:
sneakyracer said:

$15k USD for that, I wouldnt touch it. Its a tough sell now, even
tougher in a few months when the 1Dsmk3 comes out.

Click to expand...

That's really not the way pros loke at it.

The question is more whether 15KUS$ can deliver more margin than
another camera or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

JJGP · Mar 29, 2007

Why is it that a camera has to be a medium format in order for the images to have high dynamic range? Furthermore, what characteristic of a camera contributes to the images having high DR? is it the large sensor? or is it the size of each pixel? or is the cameras on board firmware? Why can't small format dslr's have very high dr with today's technology?
jj

E.J. · Mar 29, 2007

To the first order it is the actual physical dimmension of the individual pixel but there are many secondary and tertiary factors. But with all else equal and in the realm of hand held cameras, a larger light receptor will allow for higher dynamic range.
--
EJP

Anders_HK · Mar 29, 2007

MR in his article;

"Photokina in September '06 Phase One and Mamiya announced that they would be working together on future products and projects. That was six months ago – enough time for something to be cooking by now. Put Mamiya's strength in camera and lens design together with Phase One's leading digital capabilities and we might be seeing something of significant interest in the not too distant future."

Question is perhaps also price of what may be cooking... if competitive ano not overly far from 1Ds Mk III, interesting indeed.

Regards
Anders
--
EXPAT WITH A HOBBY
Photo Aspiration - Artistic Pointing of Camera at Natural Light
Engineer and Architect - Aspiration of Arts in Technology

ixania · Mar 29, 2007

Anders_HK said:
Question is perhaps also price of what may be cooking... if
competitive ano not overly far from 1Ds Mk III, interesting indeed.

if they want it to be a success, the price would have to be way lower than 1dsM3. would say: half the price. because the technical specifications are much worse in nearly every aspect. it's not enough in our days to simply say: but the sensor is bigger! so what?

Anders_HK · Mar 29, 2007

One should assume that not the sole upgrade is MP. The body is there, they need upgrade its inside and display of course.
Rgds
Anders

sergey1968 · Mar 29, 2007

While signal to noise ratio and dynamic range are no doubts closely related there are additional factors like non-linear transformation of the "signal" before noise is measured.

Good example is color negative film which is quite grainy (noisy) but has huge exposure latitude - which for the end user works as dynamic range. You get grain, and simultaneously good details in shadows and highlights.

Actually if you will try to emulate that kind of curve with digital file, exposing for highlights (quite a hassle) and pushing shadows you will get significant noise there.

I know from personal experience that at ISO 100 pushed shadows of 5D show more noise and pattern than those of D2x. Only at ISO 100 though

As for Mamiya review - the images look quite unimpressive - but this IMHO is special talent of Mr R. I only have experience with Mamiya 7 - which is magnificently good with perfect lenses.
--
Sergey
http://www.pbase.com/sergeyushakov/
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ywos · Mar 29, 2007

ixania said:
if they want it to be a success, the price would have to be way
lower than 1dsM3. would say: half the price. because the technical
specifications are much worse in nearly every aspect. it's not
enough in our days to simply say: but the sensor is bigger! so what?

And that's where you are absolutely wrong. Why are $20000+ MF backs being sold at all (and they actually sell very well) , if technically they are nothing but a large sensor with worse parameters than the 1Ds?

If I use an example from film photography, you think there is no difference between a Provia slide loaded into a MF camera and a 35mm camera? The huge difference in quality is exactly due to larger size of the MF "sensor" despite the slide film having exactly the same characteristics in both formats. Same goes for medium format digital. I wish that everyone who says "but the 1Ds is better" actually saw a MF image and why in SOME cases MF is the best choice. Bigger is in this case better.

And to the poster a few posts above, increased DR has nothing to do with format, but with the technology employed by DALSA in the design of the sensor.

KAllen · Mar 29, 2007

PIXSurgeon said:
...This camera is going to get its as_s-whipped when the new 1Ds
MKIII comes out later.

The 1DsmkIII isn't available, you could say the mkIII will get it's as_s wiped when the ZDII comes out later.

Kevin.

KAllen · Mar 29, 2007

It's quite possible that the Mamiya has a noisless sensor at 50-100 iso, it's the way the electronics handle the noise when the gain is turned up that might not be in the Canon league. A P45 is better than a Canon at low iso's but not as good at higher iso's.

Kevin.

PIXSurgeon · Mar 29, 2007

JohnSavage said:
You can only really understand a camera's
potential if you've used it, is that too hard to grasp? Look you
can jerk off over your pixels as much as you like it really isn’t
up to Bernard to prove anything.

...The time of zelots, of priests, of mysterious monks/moguls, of eccentric and enigmatic "veredicts" (with no base, no foundation on any real/objective/solid/metric assessment) is GONE, CAPUT, pulverized!

Welcome to the world of Digital Imaging and just get over it.

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TIP: If you do not like this post, simply press the 'COMPLAINT' button. Mommy/Daddy are just one click away.

J A K · Mar 29, 2007

posted a link to one of the examples we are talking about. Here is the link for your convenience.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/1photo-pages/t-big.shtml

There certainly is a lot of noise in the upper right hand corner. I've never seen anything that bad at ISO-100 out of either a 10D, 30D, or 1DmkII. How does anybody get "great" DR when the noise looks like that?

I understand the point you are making and you are correct. Regardless, the reality of the matter there is a lot of noise in that particular shot (the link). Anyway, just take a look above at PIXSurgeon's direct reply to the OP for more commentary.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia/original

SEARCHING FOR A BETTER SELF PORTRAIT

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