Hi..questions about M6/M7/M8/film and digital

Hi folks,

I've been cheking in to this forum quite a bit lately but don't own a Leica (yet) and hope you can ease my confusion.

I have a D200 and Oly E1. I also shoot a little with my FM3A. Lately I have been thinking about going completely film with a Leica M6 or M7 and have checked a couple out in the shops (the dealers here think I'm nuts..maybe I am.)

The D200 and the lenses, infact the whole DSLR is, in my opinion, getting bulky and tiring. My D200 laid next to the Leica M7 is quite franky embarrasing – and I thought why am I carrying all this around with me/..getting it out of my bag in public makes me feel uncomfotable..firing one shot off and heads turn. Which is why I'm at ease with landscape. I am also a little fed up of RAW file processinga nd sitting in front of my Mac.

But, I also love to shoot family and friends – anything of interest really. Also, there seems to be no real direction from manufacturers towards compactness..bodies and lenses.. except from Leica. The Oly E400 is plasticky and fiddly, and anyway the lenses are not exactly small. The new Oly is looking to be just another bulky camera. I want to get rid of all my Nikon stuff – noisy, conspicous and heavy; but keep a minimalist E1 kit.

I think I coud get away with a 28 or 35mm lens and a 50mm in the Leica M series. If I did go down the M8 digital route I am aware of the focal length change factor.

So, have any of you bought a M6 or M7 recently (even after the launch of M8)?

I'm drawn to Leica M6/M7/M8 because of compactness of body and lens; and am aware of the drawbacks of rangefinder for landscape (but that may be an advantage as carting filters and tripods is also becoming a pain – literally). I would have to rationalise my style of picture taking perhaps.

I know there are other rangefinders/systems but none as compelling as the Lecia. What do you think? Film or digital M6/7 or M8.

Malcolm

http://www.malcolmfarrarphotography.co.uk

Malcom, good questions! I ask these myself daily. Still haven't really found THE answer. There probably isn't one. Be aware, that the best images will always require time - analog or digital. Either time in the dark room or in from of your computer. Only you can make that final decision.

When I see wonderful b&w prints (as displayed at Leica in Solms), I'm almost convinced to return to film and darkroom. But when I shoot digital raws, process them on my pc and have fine color prints just 30 minutes upon returning from a hike, then I'm still awed by the (digital) capabilities.

Twenty people will have 40 reasons for either analog or digital. And some, like me, will wish to have both. If I could find the time to spend in a darkroom again, then I'd probably set up once more in my cellar. And if I could find the time to fiddle with the different papers and inks available for my printers, I might even find a (b&w print) combination which satisfies my demands.

What I did find time for and what really aided me greatly in the recent months were three digital workshops: photography, post processing and printing. Most of my former (digital) displeasure was due to ignorance. And I still a good way to go. Who knows, I might even sind a satisfactory b&w print option.

If you don't find the time, I'd suggest you shoot jpgs. Shooting raw will allow for best possible results - but it will also take time for processing. When I shoot at a party and want to distribute post card-size prints before folks leave, I shoot jpgs. Almost like 'polaroids' of ancient times - just better!
--
Mike Baginy

Hi Malcolm
I hope you're well.

In late September I was in exactly the same position as you - E1, D200, lots of lenses - embarrassed with the 'my that's a big one' comments.

I started down this trek in October - the M8 looked interesting, so I placed an order on spec, and then, late one night I found I'd won an auction on an M6ttl. Wonderful. I spent a month loving it and shooting film, pretty much exclusively - bought a good Nikon ED 5000 scanner.

I fell in love with the camera ok, but not with the scanning, and not really with film either.

In November the M8 arrived, in December the M6 went to finance the tri-elmar In January I sold off the D200 70-200 and 17-55. and in Feb the rest of the lenses and the scanner.

I've kept the E330 (great for macro and flash) the E1 (well, how could I sell it) and the 14-54 / 50-200 / 50mm macro.

The M8 is a wonderful thing - fabulous for landscape, but it won't do everything, hence keeping the Olympus gear. I reckon their new camera will be a 10mp E1 size (and the teaser rather suggests that there will be a metal version of the E400).

All I would say is that if you want to spend less time in front of your mac - don't imagine that film will help you!

My experience would suggest that you bite the bullet and get an M8 - maybe you could borrow an M7 from a dealer for a day just to make sure you're comfortable with the rangefinder generally.

Enjoy!

best wishes
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

Hi to both of you and thanks for the quick responses,

Yep, your'e right Jono..film workflow has its negatives (no pun intended) but it has the attraction of film archivability, which has always been a problem for me. I had thought I would get film processed and then if any good ones get them scanned professionally. I like to do my own printing.

And Mike, I hadn't intended to give the impression that I would go down the darkroom route, I know how to get nice results using digital and on high end papers (Hanhemule and Museo – I love that look) great to hear your thoughts though.

For me it's the whole weight/awkwardness of the DLSR thing that is bugging me.

I had also thought – and comments welcome –about a voigtlander just to get things in perspective for a while; however, I am a sucker for quality and wonder if it would be a waste of good money.

I must come to terms with the fact that there isn't (yet) a perfect camera that does everything – I guess Steve Jobs is working on it though.

Thanks – nice to hear your views Jono – take care,

Malcolm

I know exactly what you mean by the size/weight of theses digital do it all cameras. I have The E-1 and a D-200 and a few others as well, and I prefer to leave all that stuff in the house when I'm out and about.

I was never able to find a point & shoot digital that would give me shallow depth of field either. I'm at the point now where 90% of my photography is all film. I either carry a M6TTL or an OM1 and a few rolls of film in my pockets.

I shot 2 rolls yesterday and went to a 1-hour developing shop, and the developed and cut my negatives for me in 10-minutes flat. Scanning does take a minute or two, but I feel the pleasure I get from manual everything 35mm is worth the scanning.

I'm currently going through the same decision making process that you are, because I'm trying to decide on my next 35mm Leica. I just picked up a 50mm Summilux to replace my 50mm Cron, and I'm trying to decide between another M6TTL, with .85 magnification, or an M3, with the .92 Magnification. I'm even looking at the MP too.

I love the viewfinder on my OM1, and would like to have a similar magnification on a rangefinder. Anything below .72 is just not my cup of tea.

--

SIGNATURE: This is a picture I did not take of a tall, greying man with crooked teeth whom I've encountered three times while photographing downtown, and each time, he's approached me quickly from the front, with a long stride, and each time he's leaned toward me and said the exact same thing 'Old One's Are Better' while palming his ancient brass Leica, opening his hand enough to show me what's there, but not enough really showing-off!' (An Unknown Leica Street Photographer)

Mike,I have digital and film, film is great quality if you shoot slow stock and I find the cameras much easier to use having shot film all my life. I tend to shoot the film, send it to the labs and let them do all the work, They have all the gear and I could not hope to compete at home, anything I fancy working on or printing my self I scan it. The Leica M cameras are fantastic for travel nice and small and optically fantastic. The digital I shoot is on a Nikon D2x and does much of the work the Leica is no good at, sports ,big long lens stuff etc but I have to say I spend a massive amount of time in front of a computor after a digital shoot, sorting and saving pictures, somthing I hate. I find I am shooting more film these days.

Hello Malcom,

Do yourself a favor and at least check out the Leica M5. I have the 50mm f/1.4 Summilux and that combo is giving my Canon 1Ds Mark II and "L" lenses a good run for the money. The Leica is producing images that are exceptional. I will provide a link to a very good discussion on the camera on the bottom of my post.

What I like about the M5 is:
1. Same size as M8.
2. TTL match needle. M6,7 & 8 all have diodes to indicate exposure.
3. Shutter speed dial overhangs the top front of camera.
4. Shutter speed diplayed in viewfinder via mechanical link.
5. Spot metering.

I have added the Leica 1.25 magnifier and a +0.5 Leica Diopter so my old eyes can perfectly focus the image in the bright rangefinder patch.

Also I am using size 675 Zinc Air Batteries at 1.4 V hearing Aid Batteries and the exposures are accurat. Those batteries are available in most drug stores for a low cost. They last 4-6 months each and comein a six pack. I also got a Leica semi hard brown leather carring case that allows the camera to be hung frommy neck using the 2 lug's, so the camera hangs verticaly. That prevents it from flipping over as you are walking around.

The M5 while having all these features still cost less than the M6, M7 & MP and M8. In fact it costs just a little more than a new Voightlander.

Here is the link.

" http://cameraquest.com/m5.htm "

Good luck with any camera that you choose. You will reap the benifits of having a small and silent camera with very sharp lenses.

--
Artist Eyes

I say go M6/M7 over M8...film is so much more satisfying with those cameras. While the M8 is an M in thought, imho the last M is the M7.

I started shooting a lot of film lately and have been carrying my F4s a lot. Slightly more bulky then my D200. But I am after the shot and could care less if people notice me.

I used to own a M3 and plan to get a M6 or M7 someday.....
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0

There are multiple questions here, None have simple answers and the answers are intensely personal. Like Jono and others, I have an E1 which I absolutely love and switched (largely) from the Canon 1D line,

My main reasons were weight, size, portability, quality, ergonomics, etc. Frankly I love the camera. I used a 1D & !Ds but found the bulk was just too much for 35mm and I felt that I might as well carry a MF. I love to shoot Cityscapes and love the detail of Medium Format and frankly the E1 was perfect but the 5MP ws not adequate for large prints (for what I wanted). I still own it, use it, and await (some day), an upgraded E1. I tried the Canon 5d for a year, could not warm up to it, had a defective one, sold a replacement one and do not miss it.

Rangefinders require a new learning curve. if you have never used one. They require a different way of visualizing the image. I have used them for almost 40 years and frankly find that they allow me to better visualize an image than an SLR, in much the same way than a waist level vfndr does in a TLR, but that is my taste. I also enjoy using accessory finders and the entire process of being more involved in the photographic process.. That said, prior to Leica's announcement that they would actually produce the M8, I had sold some of my Leica equipment in response to their announcement that they would not.

OTOH I had become so disenchanted with dSLRs, I had purchased a MF scanner (used Nikon 8000) and had the intention of purchasing a MF rfndr such as the Mamiya 7 in addition to my Leica M7/MP to produce large printable files using a relatively small sized camera.

Since the M8 I no longer feel that need and will be selling the 8000. I will continue to hold on to my film M's but for ME at least, I see no particular advantage to film. There is no high quality processing lab in my location, Scanning the film requires an extra step (which to do correctly so as to make it worth doing requires considerable skill and time) is not inexpensive and adds approximately $15-$20/roll. Frankly I am keeping my M7 for backup,to provide ultrawide with the TriElmar and investment with the MP3 (and i can't bear to sell it...lol)

The simple matter is that IMHO the image quality 99% of the time will be better from the digital M8 than from the film files with less work and less overall cost, unless you desire to stay in an entirely analog environment. I grew up developing and printing in that environment doing both b/w and color requiring plumbing, chemistry, etc and the results today using hybrid environments or straight digital in most cases for most individuals rivals or exceeds it for all but master printmakers (who have largely switched as well) and has the advantage of a much shorter learning curve due to digital's "instant feedback (no I am not advocating "chimping") affords.

I would recommend separating your decision process into 2 parts: 1) decide whether a rangefinder is right for you; 2) decide whether you wish to return to a film envrionment whether hybrid or fully analog. These are 2 entirely separate and distinct decisions. If I did not already own film M's I do not know that I would buy one. I own many Canon EF lenses but currently no SLR body. I may buy (eventually) another Canon dSLR. I will NEVER buy another Canon film SLR

hope this rambling helps.

Ed Rauschkolb

http://www.pbase.com/enradman/image/71306994/medium.jpg ;

Thanks to all you Leica lovers for taking tome to share your experiences and thoughts re the Leica film/digital route.

What is so interesting to me after 7 years of digital shooting as well as film that there is still a great hunger for 'something' in the world of photography that digital cannot provide (but film, in spite of its losing ground to digital still seems to satisfy).

Perhaps film is more human; more understandable. The Leica system itself full of craftsmanship– handmade not mould made. We like metal, not plastic.Yet the manufacturers seems to ingore this in the name of profit and convenience. One technology replaces another and we turn a blind eye to the cost (what will happen to all those digital cameras that are superseded?) and the jobs – where machines and cheap labour replace a lifetime of human skills. If they disappear then Leica as we know it today will too. There seems to be an inate distrust of 'technology' in all of us in spite of the 'benefits' it brings us.

And, because photography is really about life –in all its glory, beauty, ugliness and mystery (as opposed to equipment fascination) those of us who have trodden the digital route for a while do seem to tire of its attractions and, perhaps would smile after Robert Frost;

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

One day I may get that Leica M6/M7.

Something to debate in the pub over a few...

cheers,

Malcolm

Ed,

my last post and yours seem to have crossed in the post! Thanks for your 'ramblings'; they are exactly what I'm looking for and, although they haven't resolved the issue, certainly help in my decision process.

If only Lecia's were a cheap as chips (not those expensive 10.2mp kind) we would ALL have one.

Is there such a thing as a photographer who has only ever had one camera all his/her life? I remember seeing a video recently–an interview with Henri Cartier-Bresson– I was amazed that he only ever used the 50mm on his Leica; and he never cropped. We're spoilt silly these days.

take care,

Malcolm

You put it much better than I could, I think I agree with every word.

best wishes
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

I was in the same boat end of last year, somehow tired of carrying a bulky DSLR with zomm lens around for taking cityscapes and trying "street photography" ... Well a D1x even with a small prime lens isn't suitable for this ... Since I had no experience with rangefinder cameras and didn't shoot film for nearly 10 years, I bought the Epson R-1Ds (with a CV 35mm f/2.5 P II) as the cheapest way into the "digital rangefinder" world. Very soon, I found out that a rangefinder camera fits MY shooting style much better than a DSLR.

I am not interested into macro or sport or wildlife photography and even using a flash isn't something I like ... But ... Now I had a camera that I carry every day in my bag, when going to work or meeting with friends. The Epson allowed me to experiment a lot and learning focussing and framing using a rangefinder without spending all the money on film. After I realized, that rangefinder cameras is the way to go for me, I bought a Leica M6 and a Nikon film scanner and I am now back in the world of film.

With film everything slows down, sometimes I develop BW myself but usual I have to wait for the results until I get my developed films back from the lab. Also the scanning process takes some time but for me shooting film is more like "making" photos than "taking" photos.

I already sold one Nikon zoom (the second is going to be sold) and the D1x and flash and some primes will follow. I am now thinking about a second M6 or even MP and a Summilux 50mm. The R-D1s will be my "digital backup" for some time (since the M8 is still very expensive and in Japan difficult to get) but I guess that two M film bodies together with some 35mm and 50mm glass will do it for me.

Just my thoughts....

Regards,

Gabor

--
http://www.pbase.com/gsamj

http://www.flickr.com/people/maddoc2003jp

malcolm farrar said:

Is there such a thing as a photographer who has only ever had one
camera all his/her life?

Click to expand...

These days...I doubt it.

malcolm farrar said:

I remember seeing a video recently–an
interview with Henri Cartier-Bresson– I was amazed that he only
ever used the 50mm on his Leica; and he never cropped.

Click to expand...

I don't know about the lens, but I heard that the no-crop rule actually wasn't always the case with HC-B. In fact, the legendary man-jumping-over puddle was cropped considerably on the left side. I think there was a pole or something that caused a dark edge.

malcolm farrar said:

We're spoilt
silly these days.

Click to expand...

Yes, we are.

I actually just won a bid for a M6TTL/.58. I can't afford an M8 right now, and I just didn't want another "cropped" image sensor like my Canon 10D. I've been carrying around the 10D w/grip and 100-400 lens for a few years now, shooting wildlife. Tired of that load and I now find myself gravitating towards street photography (although I'll still hang on to my DSLR kit). So I've been playing around with a Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2...practicing "hip shots", prefocus, zone focus, and stuff like that. Now I'm just looking for a 35mm lens and I'm ready to re-enter the world of film. I figure it's worth a try.

I have a feeling that the Leica Ms are reaching a low price plateau, and even if I decide to sell the M at some point, I probably won't lose much and maybe even come out ahead. We'll see.

Good luck with your decision, and let us know what you decide.

--

• markE

http://www.wingsoflight.com

'Good wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'