Reading mode: Light Dark

I don't get it....

Go to last post
Would love to see the results!

Tim
DMillier said:
I can often tell Kodak shots, too. But distinguishing doesn't
always mean better!

I've decided to try and answer my own "challenge" to you the other
day by getting hold of a leica and perhaps zeiss lens for the 5D to
see if I can tell any difference between them and cheaper lenses.

The R series leica lenses and Zeiss lenses will fit the canon with
a cheap adapter.
tashley said:
I'm not claiming that I would always be able to tell, less still
that at screen size and in jpeg I couldn't be easily mislead, but I
DO think there's a difference - probably mainly to do with the
glass but who knows?

Best

Tim
DavidMaven said:
At commonly published enlargement
sizes, I doubt one can see a difference between Leica and other
brands in objective comparisons.

--
[email protected]
Click to expand...
--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/
Click to expand...
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
Click to expand...
--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/
 
DMillier said:
I've decided to try and answer my own "challenge" to you the other
day by getting hold of a leica and perhaps zeiss lens for the 5D to
see if I can tell any difference between them and cheaper lenses.

The R series leica lenses and Zeiss lenses will fit the canon with
a cheap adapter.
Click to expand...
You'll find the Leitz/Zeiss will be better especially at 20-35mm focal lengths.
here is some info:
http://nemeng.com/leica/002f.shtml
Mark
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
...is people's obsession with exposure compensation controls. Look, all an exposure compensation system does is create an exposure setting over or above what the camera's onboard system has judged to be the proper exposure. But what the heck is the camera exposing for anyway? What is the "proper" exposure? Your camera can't possibly know what you have in your mind's eye for a particular photo. So all the exp comp function does is make an exposure setting under or over an already questionable "proper" exposure.

Exp comp only make sense in two cases:

1) On P&S cameras that otherwise have no real exposure control

2) On modern digital cameras (including most DSLRs) for which manual exposure control is awkward

On the Leica, exp comp just doesn't make sense, because the manual controls are so simple and straightforward to use. Manual exposure control on any M camera is much simpler than the exp comp setting on almost any digital camera.

Also realize that the Leica presents an expert interface. It is optimized for people who understand basic photography and who want a simple and direct way to control the basic parameters of photography: aperture, shutter speed and focus. When you boil it down, those are the only "technical" things you have to deal with when taking a photo. Scene modes, exposure compensation, and other unnecessary functions just clutter the interface and make it harder to use.

--Jim
DMillier said:
Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?
tashley said:
In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim
Hemidart said:
tashley said:
He was being ironic
Click to expand...
Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
Click to expand...
--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/
Click to expand...
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
Click to expand...
 
I'm not sure I understand your point criticising exp comp.

With my camera, my way of working is:

set camera to Ap priority, choose aperture, shoot, check histogram, adjust exp up or down using thumb wheel, reshoot.

What could be simpler or quicker?
Jim Laurel said:
Exp comp only make sense in two cases:

1) On P&S cameras that otherwise have no real exposure control
2) On modern digital cameras (including most DSLRs) for which
manual exposure control is awkward

On the Leica, exp comp just doesn't make sense, because the manual
controls are so simple and straightforward to use. Manual exposure
control on any M camera is much simpler than the exp comp setting
on almost any digital camera.

Also realize that the Leica presents an expert interface. It is
optimized for people who understand basic photography and who want
a simple and direct way to control the basic parameters of
photography: aperture, shutter speed and focus. When you boil it
down, those are the only "technical" things you have to deal with
when taking a photo. Scene modes, exposure compensation, and other
unnecessary functions just clutter the interface and make it harder
to use.

--Jim
DMillier said:
Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?
tashley said:
In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim
Hemidart said:
tashley said:
He was being ironic
Click to expand...
Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
Click to expand...
--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/
Click to expand...
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
 
DMillier said:
I'm not sure I understand your point criticising exp comp.

With my camera, my way of working is:

set camera to Ap priority, choose aperture, shoot, check histogram,
adjust exp up or down using thumb wheel, reshoot.

What could be simpler or quicker?
Click to expand...
the M8's aperture priority metering system is CWA and really almost spot ...in aperture priority mode it will set shutter speed in smaller increments that that available on the dial as well, which helps with fine tuning metering

I find it a delight to use because of its simplicity ...you can adjust exposure by using exposure lock (a half press on the shutter release does this) and quite quickly obtain the exposure you want ...by choosing different light zones to meter, you effectively dial in compensation and do this very quickly once you get the hang of it

by and large I find this simple system far preferable to dialing in exposure compensation or using more complex systems such as matrix metering
for me at least, this simpler system is a more effective way to meter
having immediate feedback from the histogram helps as well

it is hard to beat the simplicity of the M8's metering system which seems ideal for a digital camera
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
Jim Laurel said:
...is people's obsession with exposure compensation controls.
Look, all an exposure compensation system does is create an
exposure setting over or above what the camera's onboard system has
judged to be the proper exposure. But what the heck is the camera
exposing for anyway? What is the "proper" exposure? Your camera
can't possibly know what you have in your mind's eye for a
particular photo. So all the exp comp function does is make an
exposure setting under or over an already questionable "proper"
exposure.

Exp comp only make sense in two cases:

1) On P&S cameras that otherwise have no real exposure control
2) On modern digital cameras (including most DSLRs) for which
manual exposure control is awkward

On the Leica, exp comp just doesn't make sense, because the manual
controls are so simple and straightforward to use. Manual exposure
control on any M camera is much simpler than the exp comp setting
on almost any digital camera.

Also realize that the Leica presents an expert interface. It is
optimized for people who understand basic photography and who want
a simple and direct way to control the basic parameters of
photography: aperture, shutter speed and focus. When you boil it
down, those are the only "technical" things you have to deal with
when taking a photo. Scene modes, exposure compensation, and other
unnecessary functions just clutter the interface and make it harder
to use.

--Jim
Click to expand...
I love the way the exposure comp works on my GR. Small toggle switch that rests near where my thumb sits....I use it all the time. Come to think about it...I used it on my F3 and F4....and my D200. All within easy reach.
Jim Laurel said:
DMillier said:
Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?
tashley said:
In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim
Hemidart said:
tashley said:
He was being ironic
Click to expand...
Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
Click to expand...
--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/
Click to expand...
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
 
I couldn't agree mroe - it's a different and more direct way of working and I greatly prefer it!
Artichoke said:
DMillier said:
I'm not sure I understand your point criticising exp comp.

With my camera, my way of working is:

set camera to Ap priority, choose aperture, shoot, check histogram,
adjust exp up or down using thumb wheel, reshoot.

What could be simpler or quicker?
Click to expand...
the M8's aperture priority metering system is CWA and really almost
spot ...in aperture priority mode it will set shutter speed in
smaller increments that that available on the dial as well, which
helps with fine tuning metering
I find it a delight to use because of its simplicity ...you can
adjust exposure by using exposure lock (a half press on the shutter
release does this) and quite quickly obtain the exposure you want
...by choosing different light zones to meter, you effectively dial
in compensation and do this very quickly once you get the hang of it
by and large I find this simple system far preferable to dialing in
exposure compensation or using more complex systems such as matrix
metering
for me at least, this simpler system is a more effective way to meter
having immediate feedback from the histogram helps as well
it is hard to beat the simplicity of the M8's metering system which
seems ideal for a digital camera
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
Click to expand...
--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/
 
Hemidart said:
I love the way the exposure comp works on my GR. Small toggle
switch that rests near where my thumb sits....I use it all the
time. Come to think about it...I used it on my F3 and F4....and my
D200. All within easy reach.
Click to expand...
I think we've all done it . . . . but the 'simplicity' of the M8 does get under your skin after a day or so.

Today I bought a Contax G2 (because it came with a Zeiss 35-70 zoom which I wanted for my dad's birthday). Playing with it for a couple of hours really brought home the reason why I love the M8 - the G2 is splendid - lots of clever ideas, and it really works - in fact, although quite different, it's rather reminiscent of the Epson R-D1.

But taking a photograph is really simple:

focus
exposure
composition
composure
shoot.

the M8 keeps it right there - as soon as you complicate it, it becomes very complex.

best wishes

--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
Jono Slack said:
I think we've all done it . . . . but the 'simplicity' of the M8
does get under your skin after a day or so.

Today I bought a Contax G2 (because it came with a Zeiss 35-70 zoom
which I wanted for my dad's birthday). Playing with it for a couple
of hours really brought home the reason why I love the M8 - the G2
is splendid - lots of clever ideas, and it really works - in fact,
although quite different, it's rather reminiscent of the Epson R-D1.

But taking a photograph is really simple:

focus
exposure
composition
composure
shoot.

the M8 keeps it right there - as soon as you complicate it, it
becomes very complex.
Click to expand...
Not as simple as a P&S....Point and Shoot.

--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
 
There are many dicussions all over the place about photographers and the fact that a better camera produces a more interesting image and will make you a better photographer, there is some truth in this depending on the direction you are coming from and who you are but if you havent got the eye it wont work.

I thought I would just throw in this little snippet about a great UK photographer that proves beyond doubt that its who is behind the camera that matters, a piece I found on the net., I should post this on every photography forum out there!

--------------------------------------------------------------

After the end of the war, photography in Britain was at a very low ebb. Due to post-war shortages and rationing it was not until about 1954 that it became easy to buy photographic equipment and consumables. As new cameras began to appear, there was debate over the ability to take 'good' pictures using old pre-war cameras. This argument was famously answered by Picture Post photographer Bert Hardy, who went to the seaside with a simple old Box Brownie camera and came back with some of the most iconic images of England in the mid 1950s.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bert Hardy was a Leica user.

Barrie

--
Barrie
 
Why would you want to post it.

I wonder who could believe that a good tool alone can do the job without the right person behind the tool.

Everbody knows that the photographer takes the image , not the camera.
I dont think we have to tell this to people.

Still its not a bad thing to use a good tool/camera.
 
A good camera makes things a lot easier - the brownie is of limited use for sport or wildlife...
Barrie Marshall said:
There are many dicussions all over the place about photographers
and the fact that a better camera produces a more interesting image
and will make you a better photographer, there is some truth in
this depending on the direction you are coming from and who you are
but if you havent got the eye it wont work.

I thought I would just throw in this little snippet about a great
UK photographer that proves beyond doubt that its who is behind the
camera that matters, a piece I found on the net., I should post
this on every photography forum out there!

--------------------------------------------------------------

After the end of the war, photography in Britain was at a very low
ebb. Due to post-war shortages and rationing it was not until about
1954 that it became easy to buy photographic equipment and
consumables. As new cameras began to appear, there was debate over
the ability to take 'good' pictures using old pre-war cameras. This
argument was famously answered by Picture Post photographer Bert
Hardy, who went to the seaside with a simple old Box Brownie camera
and came back with some of the most iconic images of England in the
mid 1950s.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bert Hardy was a Leica user.

Barrie

--
Barrie
Click to expand...
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
 
DMillier said:
A good camera makes things a lot easier - the brownie is of limited
use for sport or wildlife...
Click to expand...
As is the M8...

But I'd use the M8 for Street, Architecture and People.
DavidMillier said:
Barrie Marshall said:
There are many dicussions all over the place about photographers
and the fact that a better camera produces a more interesting image
and will make you a better photographer, there is some truth in
this depending on the direction you are coming from and who you are
but if you havent got the eye it wont work.

I thought I would just throw in this little snippet about a great
UK photographer that proves beyond doubt that its who is behind the
camera that matters, a piece I found on the net., I should post
this on every photography forum out there!

--------------------------------------------------------------

After the end of the war, photography in Britain was at a very low
ebb. Due to post-war shortages and rationing it was not until about
1954 that it became easy to buy photographic equipment and
consumables. As new cameras began to appear, there was debate over
the ability to take 'good' pictures using old pre-war cameras. This
argument was famously answered by Picture Post photographer Bert
Hardy, who went to the seaside with a simple old Box Brownie camera
and came back with some of the most iconic images of England in the
mid 1950s.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bert Hardy was a Leica user.

Barrie

--
Barrie
Click to expand...
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
Click to expand...
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
 
The simple fact is that its the photographer taking the picture. Leica Schmeica. Leicas are great for giving mediocre photographers confidence that somehow their work will drastically improve or become 'art' upon being recored with one of those magical German cameras, the confidence in one self showing in the work, possibly improving it slightly. Other than that its a bunch of bolocks. The brand has taken on mythical proportions (hence so many rich amateurs and camera fondlers snapping them up and truthfully, keeping the brand from going bankrupt a long time ago) and the concepts of "Leica shots" or that "Leica look" or "Leica style photography" are so ingrained in consumers heads that they buy the camera and see what they want to see. Its a Leica, it must be the best. Not that I have anything against Leicas, it just bothers me when people try and attribute some magical made up garbage instead of simply saying "I, as a good capitalist, have made my money and like to enjoy it. I appreciate the finer things in life and know Leica is an elite brand therefor I bought one. I also admire much of the work that I have seen from famous Leica photogs and would like to emulate them."

Now optically, the lenses are very good and mechanically, the bodies are top-noch. Im not arguing that and if one like shooting test charts and brick walls then its possible that the Leica glass is better than most. I wouldnt know, ive never shot a chart or brick wall in my life. That said, equal optical quality can be had for much cheaper via Contax/Y/Zeiss, Mamiya, Konica, etc.

A large amount of the great Leica photogs of past who are still shooting professionally have switched to Canon/Nikon for all but personal or long-term documentary projects. For photojournalism id say nearly everyone has made the jump (just so people dont think im a Leica-hater, ill let you know that im one of those few out there running around with my Ms that hasnt made the jump yet, so dont try to give me any of that "you wont understand until you have used a genuine Leica brand camera with a genuine Leica brand lens" garbage). And no, the quality their work didnt suddenly plummet upon switching.

ITS THE PHOTOGRAPHER, not the camera. One can be more comfortable with a set of tools and produce better work because of that comfort level, but its still the person who is operating them. Period.

I hate this Leica artsy fartsy arrogance garbage. I see it so much on internet forums, its ridiculous and gives real photographers that happen to use Leicas a bad image.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

p.s. wow these dpreview forums are sensitive to language... i had to re-edit like 10 time and for the life of me still couldnt figure out what they had a problem with
 
Thanks....I couldn't of said that better myself.

--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
 
dasper said:
p.s. wow these dpreview forums are sensitive to language... i had
to re-edit like 10 time and for the life of me still couldnt figure
out what they had a problem with
Click to expand...
hahahah..ya been there....heck, I thought I was banned or something.
 
I just wanted to clear things up for these people that ask an innocent question and get slammed with this elitism "you just dont get it", "talk to me after youve used a leica" or "they simply make the finest glass in the universe" from a bunch of posers that (for the most part) take garbage for pictures and could get by fine with a Casio pocket cam.

Its your perrorgitive to be a consumer and buy nice things but dont for one second think youre an 'artist' or something just because you picked up a Leica. Thats ridiculous. Owning an M does not afford you some sort of legitimacy.

I remember one time in Tamarkin there was this older lady buying an MP setup, "So whats really the difference between the 35 Summilux and the 50 Summilux? I only need one but which is better? I want to have the best possible." Those are the type of people that will mostly be buying these M8s and you know what, theyll keep Leica alive. I dont want to see Leica die so go for it. And buy new please, I want them to get these M8 problems fixed ASAP.

p.s. i know i mentioned it before but this language filter is -completely- insane. will they even let me say insane? lets see...
 
But where else can you eavesdrop on so many naked people complimenting each other on their clothes?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top