30D vs 5D For a beginner

Just starting out in digital photography & Seem to be leaning towards the 30D, however the specks and what I read about the 5D seems like the camera I need for the type of photogrpahy I wish to grow into (Mainly portraits and family events and blowing them up to mainly A4 but also some A3 and larger) The lower rating Megapixels on the 30D raises some concerm, especially when blowing up shots and cropping.

5D not really in my price range, but I may just be able to stretch it and manage it wiht a minimal loan. My main question is:

Is the 5D just too much camera for a beginner. Would it better to start with the 30D and buy a 5D later on?

the 5D is just as easy to learn as the 20 or 30d. The 5D produces portraits that rival that of the 1dsmk2. To me and from what I've herd the 5D and 1dsmk2 are the best portrait/wedding DSLRs money can buy aside from medium format DSLRs. the 5d and 1dsmk2 produce photos on par with medium format film, but they are sharper and with less noise.

Leggy said:

The lower rating
Megapixels on the 30D raises some concerm, especially when blowing
up shots and cropping.

Click to expand...

It shouldn't.

Leggy said:

5D not really in my price range, but I may just be able to stretch
it and manage it wiht a minimal loan. My main question is:
Is the 5D just too much camera for a beginner.

Click to expand...

No.

Leggy said:

Would it better to
start with the 30D and buy a 5D later on?

Click to expand...

Possibly. The main thing about the 5D for me is a stop better performance in low-light. Next is lens availability, especially fast wides.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

I don't see anything wrong with it. If you were in the film age, you would have bought a "full frame" camera with the features found on a 5D- of course at a much lower cost. The 5D is a classic. It harkens back to the film age in many ways.

If you are serious about learning photography and not just being a gear head, either camera will do just fine. The camera isn't going to do it for you anyway. They are both fine tools.

So cost is an issue. You can get the results you are looking for on a 30D- probably more than you will ever need. You could also put the differenc in price into lenses and, very importantly, you would not be in debt at a high interest rate.

Basically, you have a choice that has no downside in terms of the cameras, so you can make the decision for other reasons if you need to.
Good luck with that.
--
Wendell
http://www.wendellworld.com

'Not everything that counts can be counted, not everything that can be counted counts.'
Albert Einstein

There's a difference in sensor size between the two cameras and I think that creates some non-trivial differences between them. I'd suggest researching the implication of a full-frame sensor vs. a cropped sensor before making your decision. Personally I could see an argument for having both cameras and using them in different situations.

Just FYI, my 30D can do 8x10s at 300dpi with only very slight uprezzing.

the 5D is super. The 30D is not shabby either. If you plan to shoot sports, the 1DmkIIN is the proper camera. It's the lenses that are most important. You might want to get a 30D and buy some good lenses.
--
Juli
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
Canon FiveDee, Canon 2oD, Canon Gee3, and Canon S7o, Fuji Eff30.

with my old Olympus 2100 UZ which was only 2 megapixels. The 30D will probably do most of what you want; if you should want to shoot some sports, it has 5 fps instead of 3 fps with the 5D. Buy a couple of decent lenses. 17-40L for landscapes and a 70-200L for more reach. There are several different 70-200Ls with different attributes.
--
Juli
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
Canon FiveDee, Canon 2oD, Canon Gee3, and Canon S7o, Fuji Eff30.

--You really want good glass on the 5D, which can easily cost much more than the 5D. Otherwise it's a great camera to start with if you can afford it.

-nothing beats a fast lense, except a fast girl-

A couple of questions. You mentioned family events - what sort of events? Are fast moving kids involved? That may be an argument fo the 30D. Or perhaps adults, where you wouldn't be in such a rush? In which case either camera will do the job admirably.

Most importantly though, what sort of budget do you have in mind? What lens(s) will you be getting etc. Because whatever you think you will spend, I guarantee it'll cost you more, it always does

--
Regards
Mark

Leggy said:

Just starting out in digital photography & Seem to be leaning
towards the 30D, however the specks and what I read about the 5D
seems like the camera I need for the type of photogrpahy I wish to
grow into (Mainly portraits and family events and blowing them up
to mainly A4 but also some A3 and larger) The lower rating
Megapixels on the 30D raises some concerm, especially when blowing
up shots and cropping.

Click to expand...

30D is more then good enough for A3

Leggy said:

5D not really in my price range, but I may just be able to stretch
it and manage it wiht a minimal loan. My main question is:
Is the 5D just too much camera for a beginner. Would it better to
start with the 30D and buy a 5D later on?

Click to expand...

The answer is : the 30D is more then good enough for a beginner, start with that camera or another camera in that price range. There's not that much sense in buying a 5D. Take a look at the Pentax K10D and Nikon D80 as well, both are cheaper, very good cameras

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I can crop at the long end myself if I want to

http://supermasj.zenfolio.com/

The main difference between the two are the pixel count and the viewing angle. Otherwise, they are almost identical. In some applications, such as birding and wildlife shooting, the 30D is in fact superior because of its higher pixel density, which is more important when cropping than total pixel count.

good points.

ed rader

--



'One often has mixed feelings about relatives, but few people could identify serious problems in their relationships with dogs.'

-- Anonymous

Family events will consist mainly of parties and gatherings but also extend to vacations & sporting events. Although there are no kids at the moment, hopefully in the near future so yes recording their lives on camera will be a big part of what we are aiming for. We are getting into photography now so we are half descent by the time they come along. I will also, especially once they come along, get into baby photography and portraits.

Thanks for your feedback and info

and soon means possibly an announcement within 3 weeks of the supposed 40D.

Nobody is saying if it is fact, or what it might be...it is all guess work based on the assumption that the 30D is not competitive with newer products from other manufacturers. (The 30D is just a warmed up 20D in reality.)

If you can wait just a bit the decision might be more clear cut, but you will likely lose the rebate on the 5D (if you are in the US).

Learning photography on either the 30D or 5D is not going to be much different. Functionally and ergonomically the 2 cameras are nearly identical.

One thing that will not be obvious, is that until you have a full frame (FF) camera, you will never get the full benefit of the lenses designed for FF sensors. The depth of field (DOF) will be narrower on a FF body, given the same focal length (FL). The image thru a FF viewfinder will be much larger and brighter than on a 1.6 FOV body. As mentioned, it is difficult to get wide angles on a 1.6, but telephotos become seemingly longer (you really just see a smaller portion of what that lens is capable of covering on a FF body.)

And as Lee said, you will not enjoy the same low light performance that the 5D provides. Though you will not have a pop-up flash in a 5D, either.

Photography is all about trade offs. But that so-so lens that works well on a 1.6 might be terrible on a FF, even if it was actually designed for FF. There are a lot of old design lenses out there, and newer coatings and tighter build standards and newer IS technology is making a marked difference. Look up the comparisons between the brand new 70/200/4.0 L IS vs. the old version, or even the older 2.8L zooms. But the cost differentials are shrinking. Progress ain't cheap.

The 1.6 FOV body can use a 17~55 mm Canon EF-S lens that is almost the equivalent of a 28~90 mm on a FF body. IMO that lens covers most, if not all, of what you expect to be shooting in groups, portraits and family events. The lens is in the $1000 range and might be compared to the 24~105/4.0 L IS on the 5D...though the 17~55 is not an L lens. No EF-S lens will fit the 5D or 1-Series body...and even if it did, it is not designed to optically cover the sensors larger than a 1.6 FOV.

The rule of thumb for best enlargements is to divide the horizontal # of pixels in the sensor by 300 (printers are good at 300 dpi) and that will give you the best print horizontal size without messing with post processing (up res, as mentioned, etc.). If you reduce the dpi count by 10% say to 270 dpi there will be some loss of print resolution, but an increase in print size. (Example, assume 3600 pixels horizontally... divide by 300 = 12" print horizontally. The same 3600 pixels divided by 270 dpi = 13.33" print at 10% fewer dpi.) It still may be an acceptable print...just not the best possible.

I hope some of this isn't too basic, but I don't know what you don't know.
--
Joe Sesto

Both are fine cameras, there is no inherent advantage to either if you're just learning.

Do Not go into debt for a hobby, gadget lust will not make you a better photographer.

Larry

Start with a 30D. If you want to have decent zooms with your 5d, which it sounds like you'll want zooms over primes, then you'll end up spending 5 or 6K for a decent outfit (24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8 maybe to start + either something fast or a good flash for indoors). As far as portraiture goes, you can do that for pretty cheap. I (and most photogs, I think) feel zooms arent neccessary for portraits. You could get a 30d and 50 1.4, 85 1.8, and then maybe a 17-40f4L for your walkaround. you should probably get a decent beginners flash...430ex would work well for you with a stofen diffuser. That outfit would only cost around $2500 or so, and you'd be equipped for a pretty good range of photography types that way. No wildlife or sports yet, but another $1000 gets you a 70-200F4L and a 2x converter. 200x2x1.6=640mm equiv on your 30d...not the fastest supertele setup but dangit, it's cheap.

Seriously though, dont buy a 5d. I have a 5d and a rebelXT. the xt was my first dSLR (never had a film slr either) ever, and everything on my website was taken with it. I'm not saying i'm the best photographer ever (laffo) but most people think i have taken some pretty decent images for someone with 1 year of experience. If you had a huge bankroll, i'd say go for the 5d because it's an incredible camera. But you dont. So get the 30d and either the lenses I mentioned above, or work out your own setup. It's much better to have a nice armory of lenses, lots of fast storage and accessories than to have a better camera that

isnt equipped properly to get you the best photos possible. This is just my humble opinion of course, but seriously consider it. You come out in much better shape, especially not having to take out a loan.

PS: I kind of feel like we're on the verge of a sensor revolution or something...they're only getting cheaper. Practice with the 30d for a year or two, then see whats up with the new generation of cameras. There's no point waiting for a couple months for the next camera...camera's are announced all the time. there's always going to be something better coming out in a couple of months, or at least there will always be people telling you that.
--

http://www.thebestphotographerever.com (website is not yet completed, dont make fun of it YET...you can make fun of the url now, though)

If at this point you can't afford the 5D, why not learn on an xt? They're pretty cheap right now. Use it for a year, invest in good glass that will work on FF too, figure out what you're looking for in a body and go from there. And, in a year there will probably have been some upgrades that might make the jump even more worth your $. You'll lose less because of depreciation too. If you buy an xt now for $450 and sell it in a year for $300 you've essentially paid $150 to use it for the year. Either way go out there and have a good time.

Johnny

Leggy said:

We are getting into photography now so we are half descent by the
time they come along. I will also, especially once they come along,
get into baby photography and portraits.

Thanks for your feedback and info

Click to expand...

I would suggest you consider learning with a camera like the EOS 350D instead of going all out with an EOS 5D. Except for the physical size, the functional differences between the 350D and 30D are minor enough to be unnoticeable to a beginner. Same sensor, same noise levels, same for almost everything. And the 350D kit ($599) comes at a little over half the price of a EOS 30D.

I suggest your start off cheaply with the 350D, and revisit your EOS 5D question again at the end of the year. You'll be more experienced then, and have a far better idea of which camera and lenses would suit your needs. You can always sell your 350D for a small loss and make an informed decision. If you can afford $3500 for a EOS 5D with accompanying lens now, surely you can afford a net loss of ~$150 while learning on a 350D?

The EOS 5D is definitely overkill for a beginner. And quite frankly, a beginner wouldn't be able to take advantage of the nuances of such a fine tool. Whether you're using a EOS 350D or EOS 5D, I doubt there would be any appreciable difference in the quality of your work for the first several months. Consider the following EOS 350D gallery, for example:

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/favorite

Spend 30 seconds or so looking at the thumbnails that gallery, and ask yourself if your photography skill right now is anywhere near the limits of that particular camera.

will give you better high ISO performance. That's where they shine.
--
Juli
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
Canon FiveDee, Canon 2oD, Canon Gee3, and Canon S7o, Fuji Eff30.

You'd be better to start with a Rebel XTi. There is nothing about the 5D that makes it more difficult to use than the others but for paying for it.

The Rebel XTi being a higher pixel count has more potential for large prints than the 30D does. The 5D is actually a much lower pixel count camera when cropped to the same frame as the XTi. It is a lovely camera that gives wonderfully smooth results, but for big stuff it not really more able.
--
Dave Lewis