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Foveon X3
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David Blehar
Forum Enthusiast
Here's a question: What do you think the resolution works out to be for the 3.5 MP sensor. In one place it lists it as 3.5 x 3 and then in that article posted in another thread it says its comparable to 7 MP. I wonder where that number comes from.
It certainly looks interesting and gives pause to anyone on the brink of making a new purchase. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for it to make it into other manufacturer's cameras and as well what it will do to cameras just coming out. For example, I here all this buzz about Olympus and Kodak having a joint venture for a new camera to be announced soon, the Fugi S2 just came out, etc. If there is a new sensor out there that makes CCD's the "old technology" I wonder if people will shy away from dropping big bucks on these new cameras.
Time will tell I suppose. Fortunately for me I have no money to buy anything, not for a few years anyway. So I guess I'll just sit back and watch this all unfurl.
-David
It certainly looks interesting and gives pause to anyone on the brink of making a new purchase. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for it to make it into other manufacturer's cameras and as well what it will do to cameras just coming out. For example, I here all this buzz about Olympus and Kodak having a joint venture for a new camera to be announced soon, the Fugi S2 just came out, etc. If there is a new sensor out there that makes CCD's the "old technology" I wonder if people will shy away from dropping big bucks on these new cameras.
Time will tell I suppose. Fortunately for me I have no money to buy anything, not for a few years anyway. So I guess I'll just sit back and watch this all unfurl.
-David
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Phil Askey
Guest
Look at the diagrams, it's still a x b pixels (say 2048 x 1536) but Foveon use 'x 3' suffix to indicate the sensor captures all three colours FOR EACH PIXEL.
Keith25106
Senior Member
What seems to be implied here is that the unnerving NOISE present in almost all digital cameras (the best in that respect being seemingly the D30) is a thing from the past with this technology. Is this correct ?
This is quite astounding and may provide 35mm equivalent quality without gouing to huge and impractical resolutions (10mp+). This seemed to be a dead end anyway due to the "mechanical" increase of noise with higher density sensors.
All I can say is WOW !
This is quite astounding and may provide 35mm equivalent quality without gouing to huge and impractical resolutions (10mp+). This seemed to be a dead end anyway due to the "mechanical" increase of noise with higher density sensors.
All I can say is WOW !
This is really a breakthrough in digicam technology !!! As the press released said --- both picture quality & camera speed will be greatly enhanced on this new "platform" !!!
Looking forward to see the real production models soon !
Jason.
Looking forward to see the real production models soon !
Jason.
Yes it does sound like a very promising chip, technology wise. I just hope it's used in other cameras beside the Sigma and soon. But a 1.7X multiplier? That sucks!! I'll pass till they can give me a full-frame sensor or nothing worse than 1.2X. Also, I would be surprised if Sigma was the only camera manufacturer with this breakthrough chip. Thirteen days till PMA and counting.
bluh
Forum Enthusiast
At a few thousand dollars I'm not going to be one of the people getting this anyway. Sure does make the future of digicams look brighter now, especially since there should be cameras under $1000 within the next year or two I suppose.
Real impressive. Will be interesting to see some DPreview tests later on.--Farewell, Bob H.
Well, I suspect that there will still be generic sensor noise, but this may well be the end of that noise taking the form of way whacko pixels.
It will certainly be the end of color-interpolation artifacting and fuzziness. We may see raw files that don't need sharpening, for example, because each pixel's value is true rather than "guessed" from its neighbors.
And now we know why Sigma has been so "out-front" with digital-ready lenses. The SA-9 is a good body to build from, too.
It will certainly be the end of color-interpolation artifacting and fuzziness. We may see raw files that don't need sharpening, for example, because each pixel's value is true rather than "guessed" from its neighbors.
And now we know why Sigma has been so "out-front" with digital-ready lenses. The SA-9 is a good body to build from, too.
- Woody -
jkirk@oz
Senior Member
Hey wait, Askey knew about this for 3 months and didn't TELL US !!!
I say we go get the rope boys .. hanging time is here ..
Just kidding ... sheesh
Yesiree 2002 is going to be a great year for DC Technology, save your $$'s.
JKirk
I say we go get the rope boys .. hanging time is here ..
Just kidding ... sheesh
Yesiree 2002 is going to be a great year for DC Technology, save your $$'s.
JKirk
dorgill
New member
This is exciting news, something I've been waiting to see happen. I’ve thought for a long time that “mosaic” CCD techology was lacking. and I’m excited that some new technology addressing this is on the horizon. I am, however, skeptical about Foveon’s claim to "approach medium format" in this quote from their website comparing film to their digital technology;
“The two are similar in that the color image capture mechanism relies on a layered structure in both cases. However, due to the grain structure inherent in film, Foveon X3 enjoys an image quality advantage for any given image capture area. Indeed, images from Foveon's APS-sized 3.5MP X3 image sensor approach medium format (roughly 56mm film) in the quality of their results, even when enlarged to 40x40 inches.”
I've worked for the past six years in an all digital photo studio. We started out with the Dicomed scanback system, which is essentially a scanning CCD array inserted into the back of a 4X5 camera. It produces very large files, but is quite slow, with exposures in minutes. We have been using a Leaf Volare "3 shot" back on our 4X5 for about 3 years now. The Volare is a professional level digital back designed to mount on a 4X5 camera system, and is very expensive (our cost 3 years ago was about $30,000 for the digital back). It incorporates a 6 megapixel monochrome CCD (the CCD is roughly the size of 35mm film) and takes 3 shots using red, green, and blue filters, then combines them to produce a full color image. This process takes about 15 seconds. This process also uses every pixel on the CCD to produce red, green, and blue pixels. We end up with about an 18 mebabyte rgb tiff file after the image has been processed from the original proprietary "HDR" file. this system produces very detailed, sharp images. In comparing the images from our digital system to scans from medium format film however, the film has the edge when making very large enlargements (40X40 images). Although our camera system is very good, and I'm guessing this new Foveon system is good as well, when it comes to big enlargements I don’t think a 3.5 megapixel CCD can compare to the resolution found in a medim format piece of film. I think its more realistic to say that our 6 megapixel 3 shot system "approaches" 35mm film. And that is concluded by comparing scans done on a high end drum scanner from 35mm film to the captures from our digital system.
Just my 2 cents.
DCO
“The two are similar in that the color image capture mechanism relies on a layered structure in both cases. However, due to the grain structure inherent in film, Foveon X3 enjoys an image quality advantage for any given image capture area. Indeed, images from Foveon's APS-sized 3.5MP X3 image sensor approach medium format (roughly 56mm film) in the quality of their results, even when enlarged to 40x40 inches.”
I've worked for the past six years in an all digital photo studio. We started out with the Dicomed scanback system, which is essentially a scanning CCD array inserted into the back of a 4X5 camera. It produces very large files, but is quite slow, with exposures in minutes. We have been using a Leaf Volare "3 shot" back on our 4X5 for about 3 years now. The Volare is a professional level digital back designed to mount on a 4X5 camera system, and is very expensive (our cost 3 years ago was about $30,000 for the digital back). It incorporates a 6 megapixel monochrome CCD (the CCD is roughly the size of 35mm film) and takes 3 shots using red, green, and blue filters, then combines them to produce a full color image. This process takes about 15 seconds. This process also uses every pixel on the CCD to produce red, green, and blue pixels. We end up with about an 18 mebabyte rgb tiff file after the image has been processed from the original proprietary "HDR" file. this system produces very detailed, sharp images. In comparing the images from our digital system to scans from medium format film however, the film has the edge when making very large enlargements (40X40 images). Although our camera system is very good, and I'm guessing this new Foveon system is good as well, when it comes to big enlargements I don’t think a 3.5 megapixel CCD can compare to the resolution found in a medim format piece of film. I think its more realistic to say that our 6 megapixel 3 shot system "approaches" 35mm film. And that is concluded by comparing scans done on a high end drum scanner from 35mm film to the captures from our digital system.
Just my 2 cents.
DCO
Jack40001
Leading Member
Actually, he seemed to know it from 1 April 2000. 
I had saved money for something like the S2 or D60 (depending on reviews) already, but now I'll just wait what will come... very interesting!
Noise will still be there, but it will not be interpolated with other pixels making it worse. Instead I may appear ultra fine, not big problem.
I wonder why this Sigma camera is limited to ISO400, while they claim the sensor is more sensitive? (except for "pushing" the ISO...)
Jake.
I had saved money for something like the S2 or D60 (depending on reviews) already, but now I'll just wait what will come... very interesting!
Noise will still be there, but it will not be interpolated with other pixels making it worse. Instead I may appear ultra fine, not big problem.
I wonder why this Sigma camera is limited to ISO400, while they claim the sensor is more sensitive? (except for "pushing" the ISO...)
Jake.
--Jake.
ResIpsaLoquitur
Senior Member
You are right. Everyone is getting a bit too carried away. But it is still just a 3.5megapixel chip, no matter how good. We need to keep it in perspective.
I'd still buy a Fuji S2 or Canon D60 in preference to this. Fuji uses a moaic CCD, but with innovative design, and a new noise filter. I'd expect these iterations of current technology to out perform the X3 for a while yet.
--
Q
I'd still buy a Fuji S2 or Canon D60 in preference to this. Fuji uses a moaic CCD, but with innovative design, and a new noise filter. I'd expect these iterations of current technology to out perform the X3 for a while yet.
--
Q
Moshe Vainer
Leading Member
Where did you get that 400iso spec? I could not find any solid spec on the new SD9, like fps, sensitivity, storage format etc.
Rgrds,
Moshe
Rgrds,
Moshe
Jack40001
Leading Member
Hi Moshe,
I think you just overlooked it.
You can read "Sigma SD9 digital SLR specifications" on the news page of this site.
Regards,
Jake.
I think you just overlooked it.
You can read "Sigma SD9 digital SLR specifications" on the news page of this site.
Regards,
Jake.
--Jake.
Moshe Vainer
Leading Member
Fabio Amodeo
Senior Member
Foveon literature says that there is a green reading element for each pixel (compared from 1:2 in traditional CCDs or CMOSs). So they rate the capability to read detail as double from that of traditional sensors. The 3x factor means only that there is no interpolation. So no complcated software, no filtering, no anti aliasing filter, no girmos to make a digital interpolation look like the real thing. I think it's a huge idea.
Fabio
GURL
Leading Member
If I understand well explanations about VPS (Variable Pixel Size : http://www.foveon.com/X3_vps.html ) larger and faster - no lag ! - LCD screens will be easier to implement : those "large pixels" are better for displays and EVF because there is much less digital processing needed, etc.
Possibly, we will see digital still + video cameras with 2.5" or 3.5" LCD screen (many video cameras use those screen sizes...) and more electronic view finders ?
George Smith80814
Leading Member
It is a huge idea, and probably just the beginning. I really hesitate to plunk down too much money on any camera right now, because of the what may be some giant leaps in the very near future. This announcement puts a real twist on the whole game.
By the way Foveon is the company that partnered with Hasselblad a couple of years ago. Note that the Hasselblad/Foveon digital camera allowed for Canon EOS lenses with a special adapter. Could be an indication of a good inside relationship between Canon and Foveon. I can only hope.
GSmith
By the way Foveon is the company that partnered with Hasselblad a couple of years ago. Note that the Hasselblad/Foveon digital camera allowed for Canon EOS lenses with a special adapter. Could be an indication of a good inside relationship between Canon and Foveon. I can only hope.
GSmith
--GSmith
somebody mentioned RAW files, but since this chip records all colors on every piksel, there will not be any use for RAW-format (since it would be exactly the same as TIFF)
so, if they want to compress pictures losslessly, the most logical choise would be LZW (some licencing issues due to patented algorithm) or ZIP(my guess). they may name it something different though.
so, if they want to compress pictures losslessly, the most logical choise would be LZW (some licencing issues due to patented algorithm) or ZIP(my guess). they may name it something different though.
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