Leica knew

Karl, you can choose not to trust me, that's a personal decision but I won't have others reading your message and assuming it's correct.

I only noticed this issue perhaps a week before the camera shipped, at the time I had no idea what I had found (although IR was an obvious suspect) or if it was isolated to the camera I had.

It would have been far worse to write an 'expose' article on a problem which was either isolated to the one camera I had and/or could be fixed. You also have to understand that when I received my camera I thought (as I had been told) that M8's weren't shipping until the end of November. We pushed Leica to make a public statement as quickly as possible.
Phil is not to be trusted either. MR was going in as an innocent,
and got burned. Phil sat silent, which might have been worse.

Any journalist has the duty to report on problems. Especially when
they are serious problems. How many cameras are sold before these
reviews actually come out?...
--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com
 
Looks like you just helped yourself! That's why I'm still waiting for my M8! But I do think that Leica will fix this without the long term expedient of front-mounted filters. Maybe not 100% but enough

And I have to say that about three weeks ago I posted some M8 shots here from a demonstrator and when I run over the originals now with an eyedropper and then really strain my eyes I can JUST make out a tiny magenta cast in some of the blacks. Nobody noticed it at the time but now we're all wearing magenta coloured contact lenses we see it everywhere. Magenta is the new terrorism.

Tim
Tim,

Perhaps you can help me?

From the depths of my ignorance I am trying to figure why would
Michael Richmann buy a M8 knowing that it was a flawed camera. The
only thing I can deduce is he truly believed the M8's positive
qualities trancended what he thought was a software fix which
haunts most pre-release cameras.

--
jrisc
--
http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html

 
With no offense intended (but I am sure much will be taken) I have a feeling that many of those who regard this whole review issue as a moral one are probably from the USA.

It is my favourite country after the UK, I live the people and I have travelled there very extensively, but I think that most international observers are of the quiet opinion that US moral outrage on an issue is not always constructive and can sometimes sound somewhat self-righteous.

Second in line for this sort of aspersion are we good ol' Brits. There, now everybody will be P* d off.

Tim

--
http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html

 
Hi There

I think your argument is the basis of the 'blame' society which I hate so much. I was just listening to a piece about an evangelist preacher (Father Ted?!) who had been preaching for years against homosexuality, and now a male prostitue has told his story.

I know this is different, but I find it easy to see that Phil and Sean and Michael, and, indeed Leica all could have acted in good faith - we all make mistakes - it depends on how we resolve them.

You seem to be setting yourself up as judge and jury here - with the defence (apart from Phil) being unable to answer.

It feels like a lynch mob to me and I don't like it.

kind regards
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
you've nothing to complain about.

Thinking about it, I can't think of many things I've bought that
didn't have some kind of a fault - from computers to cars to
whatever - I can't remember a single company that warned me in
advance that they were sending me defective product.
Well said Jono, my experience and sentiments exactly.

Sean
 
I'm really sorry this is happening - it's quite reminiscent of the slating that Bjorn Rorslett got over his glowing review of the D2x.

People seem to assume that you're enthusiasm was feigned.

Anyway, I've argued enough - I find the blame society attitude so tiresome - it seems to me that everybody has acted in good faith (including Leica) .

I'm going to shut up and enjoy my camera, banding, magenta and green spots notwithstanding!

kind regards
--
Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk
 
This article on Luminous Landscape curled what is left...
I agree, but for different reasons...
The November 11, 2006, "A Clarification" also sheds some light on the dynamics of LL and other camera websites respectively their interaction with manufactorers. Further, there have been several reports in the press a couple of months ago who maunfactorers and marketing professionals are systematically targeting online forums.

In my opinion, the "Leica case" is more about the stakeholders involved and their interaction rather than a technical "camera issue". Of course, trying to discuss that in exactly one of these forums is a contradition in itself.
 
Earlier this year, on finding out that Leica would come out with a digital rangefinder, I was very excited and started reading almost everything I could lay my eyes on. When the magenta issue came up, I told myself 'Oh dear, I hope this doesn't hurt the company and let us hope they will survive this and the IR problems are not going to hurt sales'. But I may be wrong to worry. There are going to be very few IR contaminated cameras and as with all cult things they may be madly sought after several years from now. And how about a real Leica colour signature - the new magenta, no aa filter, superb optics, low shutter speeds with no blur. Why not turn the supposed weaknesses into strengths. And remember to mark the serial number. I would advise owners against returning their 'faulty' copies. Obviously apart from the magenta issues the camera is as good as it gets. If I could afford one, I would never return it. I probably wouldn't even bother to 'remedy' the IR issue. In the meantime I will shoot with the Contax G1 and the 45/2 Planar. Enjoy your rangefinders, whatever the brand. Theo
 
I agree. What I have learned from this episode is that some photo websites - DP Review, for example - observe the standards that one might expect of a Journal of Record. Just like the UK publication 'Amateur Photographer' it has postponed its review until the fault in the camera is fixed.

Others have 'reviewed' the camera without referring to the fault. Knowing which they are will make me better able to judge their value in future.
--
MarkG
 
Others have 'reviewed' the camera without referring to the fault.
No, others submit their reviews for final editing to the manufactorers before publishing...

...while others are "working together closely with manufactorers" before "getting it right".

Additionally, several photography website make money with advertising, not to mention the "colnstructive claboration" it takes in order to preview pre-production models an be "in the loop" for news.
 
Get rid of this pre-production model BS. The present situation is VERY convenient for both manufacturers and reviewers.

"Opps, I did omit something from the review", say the web journalists, "but it's because the model is pre-production. By the time it comes out it might be fixed. Only being fair to the company."

"Please, show us the review before you post it" say the companies, "it was only a pre-production model, so we are entitled to a pre-look at your article."

All very cosy and easyly allows to pass the buck back and forth when things go wrong, like in the case of M8.

Let us NOT review pre-production models. The DAY the product comes out officially, you get it and test it. It is now a production model. No excuses possible. And no need to show the Co. a pre-look of the review. It (the camera) lives or dies on its own merits.

That is the only way to go, IMO.
 
'Oh dear, I hope this doesn't hurt the company and
let us hope they will survive this and the IR problems are not
going to hurt sales'.
Don't worry: All major digital camera manfucatorers have released dodgy products over the last couple of years (banding and other interfering issues, obvious firmware mistakes etc.) - this market is still young, products still immature. Especially if you buy a "pioneering" camera (and Leica is a pioneer both with the M8 and also their digital back for the R system), expect to be a "beta tester". Leica is very well known for their client centricity. It's better to have "issues" with Leica than with monsterous organisations like Canon, Nikon or Sony, where "more serious" photographic equipment makes only a small percentage of financial contribution and therefore ranks low on priority list.
 
Any color of an object which reflects IR will not have the color rendered correctly.

You can't ever get a GertagMacbeth color chart to render correctly even when shot oustide.

l
--
---
****************************************

'Giving a camera to Diane Arbus is like putting a live grenade in the hands of a child.'
Norman Mailer (b. 1923), U.S. author. Newsweek (New York, 22 Oct. 1984)
 
Let us NOT review pre-production models. The DAY the product comes
out officially, you get it and test it. It is now a production
model. No excuses possible. And no need to show the Co. a pre-look
of the review. It (the camera) lives or dies on its own merits.
That is the only way to go, IMO.
That makes sense, but I'm afraid goes against the "digital camera" game as it is played now. See for example this here...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0611/06110601nikond40.asp

Product cycles are very short, websites which are advertisement driven (like this one here) are forced to "stay ahead" (not just with pre-production models, but also a pole position in the rumour race is required) if they want to stay competitive and profitable.

The incentives to be "the first" are so strong, I don't think it's possible to publish product model information only: the time lag between announcement/availability of pre-production models and effective delivery of production models is several months, such information would be hopelessly "outdated" in an industry with product cycles of about maybe a year on average.
 
People still buy Ferraris knowing that they are gonna have fun with the electrics. How many of these drivers take their cars to the limit? Most M8 buyers buy the thing to admire the impeccable finish and workmanship. To touch and feel the silky controls. To show off to friends and maybe once in a while take it out of the display cabinet to take a few photos. So don't worry, the M8 will sell well and be a life saver for Leica.

--
'The majesticness of that duck is overwhelming!' - Bulbol
 
could be fixed. You also have to understand that when I received
my camera I thought (as I had been told) that M8's weren't shipping
until the end of November. We pushed Leica to make a public
statement as quickly as possible.
In my opinion, you did the right thing by holding back your review until you could get more information. Since Leica was aware that you and others had found serious issues wiht the camera, I am wondering if Leica might have spead up the release to get the camera out in advance of any negative reviews.

Alan Goldstein

http://www.goldsteinphoto.com
 
Phil is stating that a camera might not get
reviewed if there are problems, or that a review would be held back
at the request of the manafacturer so problems can be addressed.
I think you're leaving out the primary reason. As someone who is holding back a review at the moment (Nikon D80), I can tell you that the main reason that you hold back a review is that you're working with one sample of the product, and until you can determine whether a problem you find is sample-related or impacts all products produced, you really shouldn't go to print with your review. Yes, there are ways to "finesse" that, as in "MY sample showed a distinct X...", but that's not very useful to the reader, IMHO. They're left on their own to try to figure out whether the product they buy may or may not have the same problem.

Most ethical reviewers engage the manufacturer in a dialog when they find something that is a real problem or limitation. Additional samples and information are normally requested. In the case I'm dealing with right now, I had a statistically significant sample of owners perform a test so that I could predict to the total population of bodies, and that revealed something even more interesting, which I'll be reporting just as soon as I have the manufacturer's response.

In short, I think you're reading Phil's motives incorrectly. Phil found something in his sample, consulted the manufacturer and found that it is something that is found in all samples. Now Phil is in a difficult position. He can review the product "as is," or he can wait for the manufacturer to address the problem and review the "corrected" product. Here's where it gets tricky. Nothing in what I've read from Leica indicates that they are going to correct the spectrum response issue (other than to tell you to use a hot mirror filter). But they do seem to be saying that they plan to address the white balance issue. So, do you test now and report the results then retest when the product is updated, or do you wait for the updated product to test? The issues seem to overlap, after all (e.g. white balance response could be wrong because of spectrum width). Phil has a lot of product sitting on his desk for testing. I can't imagine that he wants to test and retest.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 
I thought that he simply didn't tell us all he knew, which is a
very different thing.
Yes. But the disturbing thing was his later comment about "only affected 1% of his photos." Let's see, if the shutter failed 1% of the time would he have written about that? I think so. What Michael revealed in that statement is more illuminating than the review, I think.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 
I agree entirely—what was revealed in M.R’s statement is MUCH more illuminating than the actual review itself. I wonder if this whole issue will bring in to question the process of “equipment review” and help to eventually install certain industry-wide standards that will serve to re-establish trust in the (by-now-jaded) consumer.
 
Ultimately, this all shows that all the reviewers are in bed with
the manafacturers to some degree.
In the sense that you can't review cameras unless cameras are made by someone, then, yes, we're all in the same bed. But it's a big bed, and only a few are sleeping together in it ; )
They either [sic]:
Having been involved with media ethics for over thirty years, I think you're painting with only a couple of colors. There are far more than three choices here.
1) Hold back on reviews until problems are addressed, or the
manafacturer "blesses" the review (Phil)
Phil said nothing of the sort. You have two independent clauses there, and they are not the same thing, nor are they what Phil said. Phil said he noticed the problem in casual use of the product while getting familiar with it before he started his testing. He has now chosen to not begin actual testing until the manufacturer makes a change to the product. And that has nothing to do with "blesses the review."
The lesson?.. none can be fully trusted, and we need to know that.
What's the old political phrase, "trust but verify"? I'm not exactly sure what it is you're "trusting," though. There is a difference between an anecdotal comment like "best camera ever" and an objective test result of 67 lppm on an MTF test. To trust the former you'd have to established that the person making the comment has both the ability to make such a comment (e.g. have they tested all cameras?) and the integrity necessary for you to rely upon it. To trust the latter, you need to know that the testing is done with some rigor and consistency. Phil falls into the latter category, and given that I've done many of the same tests he has and come up with the same results, I think I can vouch for his rigor and consistency.
While Phil's mode of operation seems to be OK with some, I still
see problems with the idea of sitting on your news when there is
such excitement about a camera.
What news is that? Phil made a news post about the problems when he got a response from Leica. Until he got a response, how would he have been able to tell whether the issue he saw was with his single sample or all product made? One problem with the Internet is that some feel that everything should be instantaneous. From what I can see, Phil did the right thing. He sought and got an official statement and published it as news once he had it.
Letting hundreds of people who
visit your site order a camera you know has issues is still
reprehensible to me.
Sorry, but publishing is about getting the balance right, and that doesn't often happen at warp speed. Let's change things just a bit. Let's say that Phil's sample and only his sample was defective in the same way. Does he issue a news story that says "The M8 I'm getting ready to test is defective?" No, he doesn't. He reports his problem to the manufacturer and asks for a response or explanation (or another sample). Based upon the response he gets, he makes a decision about what to do next. As far as I can tell, Phil acted in a timely way while balancing the needs of his readers against fairness to manufacturers.

As to people ordering a camera the day it appears, the old tech adage applies: live on the bleeding edge, get cut on the bleeding edge. Complex tech products have a long history of having issues out the gate. Product cycles have gotten so short that it's a rare product that comes out with serial number 0001 being perfect. As far as I can tell, there's no one on the planet that absolutely had to have an M8 on day one or else they would lose their job or die. Balance. It's important to get right, both in reviewing and in life.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
 

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