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Review = OUCH
- Thread starter Joe Griffo
- Start date
Len Caplan
Member
HARSH? Since when is the word harsh synonomous with factual and honest.
This comment, as well as the complaints about the percent rating proves that too many people are not really interested in a fair and honest review, but a verification that what they have already decided, or worse, have already done.
I normally do not put much credence in either reviews or reviewers, but my feelings have really changed. Phill really nailed it, and called a spade a spade.
What came out is that this is a resonably decent camera with some many advanced features, but not the best thing since sliced bread.
It is one great review for those who wanted a real world eveluation, and a real bummer for those who did not want the facts, but wanted a reason to buy the newest toy and needed permission to do so.
Those who wanted an honest review will read it all, and then decide for themselves whether it is worthwhile for them, and if it is worth the expenditure. I for one will sit this one out and stick with my 995.
Great review Plil!
Len
This comment, as well as the complaints about the percent rating proves that too many people are not really interested in a fair and honest review, but a verification that what they have already decided, or worse, have already done.
I normally do not put much credence in either reviews or reviewers, but my feelings have really changed. Phill really nailed it, and called a spade a spade.
What came out is that this is a resonably decent camera with some many advanced features, but not the best thing since sliced bread.
It is one great review for those who wanted a real world eveluation, and a real bummer for those who did not want the facts, but wanted a reason to buy the newest toy and needed permission to do so.
Those who wanted an honest review will read it all, and then decide for themselves whether it is worthwhile for them, and if it is worth the expenditure. I for one will sit this one out and stick with my 995.
Great review Plil!
Len
Jerrold
New member
The lens sharpness hurt the 5000 more than any thing else. 5 mega pixel cameras require the sharpest lens you can get (fast is nice too). Had the CP5000 been the one with the sharpest lens in this review it would have been one large step towards "Highly Recomended"
Phil,
Keep the 'Recommended, etc.' ratings. You give page after page of objective information. I personally am happy to see one option of subjectivity when it comes to these things and the 'word' review works well for this. You've seen all of these cameras and heck, you should have some 'feeling' about it by now.
mix
Keep the 'Recommended, etc.' ratings. You give page after page of objective information. I personally am happy to see one option of subjectivity when it comes to these things and the 'word' review works well for this. You've seen all of these cameras and heck, you should have some 'feeling' about it by now.
mix
S
stripes
Guest
You could rate the non-lens features (construction quality, features, ergonomics)...you could also rate the image quality of a lens/camera combination. That would be more work, but it would also provide additonal incentave for Contax/Canon/Nikon to send you good lenses to do the review with
Or you could keep on doing what your doing, it sure is useful even without the 1-10 rating.
(P.S.please keep the overall rating Recomended/Highly Recomended, it is a good reminder that it is a subjectave raiting, more so then the other comments in the review because they reflect not just your idea of image quality/build quality/so on, but also how you weigh each component)
F
FJBrad
Guest
Great review, Phil!
Some of us, including me, are dissapointed that the 5k didn't perform or rate better, but I think your review accurately described it's good and bad points and did so without putting undue emphasis anywhere where it might be construed as bias.
I'm still a Nikon guy, but as you pointed out, the competition is blurring the lines of distinction ( forgive my paraphrasing ). Hopefully, with the intense level of competition, we consumers will be the ultimate beneficiaries.
Still happy with my 995 until a prosumer level SLR similar to the Canon D30 comes on line from Nikon.--FJBrad
Richard Butz
New member
Phil- First of all, thanks for the review and for graciously accepting all the "review-it-now demands" that have come at you over the last few weeks. (They must have been substantial!) Personally, I like the 'Recommended - Highly Recomended..." approach. The overall rating is just part of the review. I read the whole thing and then try to match to my personal wants and needs. I never even considered whether this or any other review was a "good" or "bad" review of the product - just was it useful to me in considering the particular camera. They have all always been very helpful! If it ain't broke (and it ain't!), don't fix it. Thanks!
Arvin Chang
Senior Member
Well when he follows up the "recommended" rating with the following:
"look out Nikon, those manufacturers which used to be a distant dot in your rear view mirror are now overtaking you. Try harder."
It's hard not to say that he's not suggesting you should check out some other cameras (namely the G2 and the 707). That's not to say the CP5000 isn't a improvement over previous models, it's just that it isn't quite on the same lines as some other models.
--arvin
Matthew W. Mengerink
Member
Howdy,
It's relative to the $$$ the feature set, etc.. That you highly recommended a 2MP camera is not an indication that it is superior to the recommended camera of 2X+ MP, feature sets, etc..
I think it would be interesting to take features or categories of features (image quality, value per price, etc.) and map them out in order to hierarchiclly order the available cameras. If you keep the spreadsheet around, each new camera only takes an insert.
Folks seem to fail to see that if you're looking for a feature like say great colors and manual macro mode that accounts for bizarre lighting that your review is something that is favorable towards the CP5K. If you're looking for high quality zoom w/out lenses, extra lenses, it's not the one.
Cheers,
Matthew
ps. Thanks for the G2 comparison.
I think people often times forget that this is a relative recommendation.
It's relative to the $$$ the feature set, etc.. That you highly recommended a 2MP camera is not an indication that it is superior to the recommended camera of 2X+ MP, feature sets, etc..
I think it would be interesting to take features or categories of features (image quality, value per price, etc.) and map them out in order to hierarchiclly order the available cameras. If you keep the spreadsheet around, each new camera only takes an insert.
Folks seem to fail to see that if you're looking for a feature like say great colors and manual macro mode that accounts for bizarre lighting that your review is something that is favorable towards the CP5K. If you're looking for high quality zoom w/out lenses, extra lenses, it's not the one.
Cheers,
Matthew
ps. Thanks for the G2 comparison.
C
Chris Eley
Guest
Thanks Phil for a comprehensive and honest review-
I'm glad I waited! I have pored over the details...
otherwise I might have already bought a Canon G2.
I'd like to think Nikon are working on fixes for the high-ISO noise,
blown-out highlights, internal flash non-cancel and purple fringing
right now, so I'm going to wait a bit longer!
But keeping things in perspective, look at the progress all the
leaders in this field have achieved in the last few years...--Chris Eley
I'm glad I waited! I have pored over the details...
However, I still prefer the Nikon's compact size and feature set,
otherwise I might have already bought a Canon G2.
I'd like to think Nikon are working on fixes for the high-ISO noise,
blown-out highlights, internal flash non-cancel and purple fringing
right now, so I'm going to wait a bit longer!
But keeping things in perspective, look at the progress all the
leaders in this field have achieved in the last few years...--Chris Eley
I think the message is much more blunt and to the point. My interpretation of his remarks are that the CP5K is a disappointment and now lags the competition. "Try harder" says it all, no?
Jim
http://www.pbase.com/jiml
Arvin Chang
Senior Member
I'm replying to two posts in one reply to save space.
--arvin
True, but they can't really fix big problem of having a poor lens - which is a big part in the lack of detail... although they "might" be able to squeeze out a little more detail with new image processing algorithms.
Yes, yes... I was trying to look at it "optimistically" because they are a lot of concerned CP5000 users who are now upset that their new camera is being called sub-par. Wouldn't you be a little supportive to someone who just spent $1000+ on a CP5000? If you want to see the flip side of the story, go to the Sony Forum - where you can see 707 owners high-fiving each other and doing little dances
--arvin
Teski
Forum Pro
Man.....You really love to start it up....The CP5000 was never rated as sub-par....That would have given a rating of average or below average. Phil still recommends this camera....It is a great camera for a lot of reasons that the 707 and Dimage just can't meet....Why can't you accept that all of these are excellent cameras....Go enjoy yours.
Teski
Teski
True, but they can't really fix big problem of having a poor lens -
which is a big part in the lack of detail... although they "might"
be able to squeeze out a little more detail with new image
processing algorithms.
Yes, yes... I was trying to look at it "optimistically" because
they are a lot of concerned CP5000 users who are now upset that
their new camera is being called sub-par. Wouldn't you be a little
supportive to someone who just spent $1000+ on a CP5000? If you
want to see the flip side of the story, go to the Sony Forum -
where you can see 707 owners high-fiving each other and doing
little dances
--arvin
Arvin Chang
Senior Member
Dang it... I try to be nice and then one person says I'm interpreting the review conclusion comments too optimistically, then I try to be a little "even-minded" and someone complains about me now leaning to far on the "harsh" side of things.
Ok, I rephrase it as "image quality that is slightly below the level set by previous 4MP/5MP models" I you right that I used "par" incorrectly. I in-advertently used it because I just read a post by this guy named Ron Parr who said it was sub-par and then people were joking about it being "sub-parr"... errrr... nevermind
I really wanted to say in comparison to other top-end prosumer models, the CP5000 is only in the middle of the pack and not top dog in image quality (it does perform better than the Minolta D7 in resolution).
--arvin
Ok, I rephrase it as "image quality that is slightly below the level set by previous 4MP/5MP models" I you right that I used "par" incorrectly. I in-advertently used it because I just read a post by this guy named Ron Parr who said it was sub-par and then people were joking about it being "sub-parr"... errrr... nevermind
I really wanted to say in comparison to other top-end prosumer models, the CP5000 is only in the middle of the pack and not top dog in image quality (it does perform better than the Minolta D7 in resolution).
Definitely as many Nikon forum members have already mentioned, it's small, has great white balance and exposure metering, has a hot shoe adapter... has a very wide lens... did I mention it was light?
some people are way too serious... there are those who claim Phil's reviews are wrong, some claim that review don't matter (after the review came out). some are complaining of some poor sap's (i.e. Me) poor choice for a single adjective.
--arvin
Teski
Forum Pro
You're right Arvin....Some people get too serious on this forum, including me at some things....If you regularly follow this forum though, you'll see how many stupid comments get thrown out there that are from Canon and Sony people that just want to make themselves feel better by crapping on Nikon. It gets old.
I'm not saying your doing this, it just comes off this way, especially since Phil's review.
Teski
I'm not saying your doing this, it just comes off this way, especially since Phil's review.
Teski
Ok, I rephrase it as "image quality that is slightly below the
level set by previous 4MP/5MP models" I you right that I used "par"
incorrectly. I in-advertently used it because I just read a post by
this guy named Ron Parr who said it was sub-par and then people
were joking about it being "sub-parr"... errrr... nevermind
I really wanted to say in comparison to other top-end prosumer
models, the CP5000 is only in the middle of the pack and not top
dog in image quality (it does perform better than the Minolta D7 in
resolution).
Definitely as many Nikon forum members have already mentioned, it's
small, has great white balance and exposure metering, has a hot
shoe adapter... has a very wide lens... did I mention it was light?
some people are way too serious... there are those who claim Phil's
reviews are wrong, some claim that review don't matter (after the
review came out). some are complaining of some poor sap's (i.e. Me)
poor choice for a single adjective.
--arvin
Now after all the reading and comparing you still have to either buy or not, and once you have, learn to use the equipment. There isn't a camera without faults nor is there a camera which can make an adequate picture without the skill of the operator. Skill circumvents the faults. If we were all pro, we'd buy the camera that gets in our way the least. We'd be able to express our vision using various makers cameras and lenses.
I'm just thinking that the CP5000, many of it's older siblings, or even most of its competitors would be enough of a camera to enable us to learn something new about capturing a scene, an event, an emotion. I appreciate the detail Phil puts in his reviews. I learn various points from the variety of posts read here and on other sites. But when it comes to becoming a better image-maker, no time counts like that which I spend squinting through the viewfinder and moving around until this or that is in the right place.
Sure, I'm going to buy another camera - I want more pixels, better lens, easier menu system than whatever I've had before, but during the time I'm using the current purchase is when I'm overcoming my camera's shortcomings and adding to my own skills base. Summary - photography is a very rich field of endeavor, and the camera - technical part of it is relatively small.
-Pat
I'm just thinking that the CP5000, many of it's older siblings, or even most of its competitors would be enough of a camera to enable us to learn something new about capturing a scene, an event, an emotion. I appreciate the detail Phil puts in his reviews. I learn various points from the variety of posts read here and on other sites. But when it comes to becoming a better image-maker, no time counts like that which I spend squinting through the viewfinder and moving around until this or that is in the right place.
Sure, I'm going to buy another camera - I want more pixels, better lens, easier menu system than whatever I've had before, but during the time I'm using the current purchase is when I'm overcoming my camera's shortcomings and adding to my own skills base. Summary - photography is a very rich field of endeavor, and the camera - technical part of it is relatively small.
-Pat
Joe Griffo
Well-known member
I hope that no one is misinterpretting me here. I feel Phil has done an excellent job. There is no other web site that I know of that I would trust for a fair and balanced review. However, criticism is an important part of the success here. Just as Phil criticizes cameras, I believe our criticism is just as important, both of the camera and the review itself.
Once a reviewer becomes immune to his audience, then he no longer needs to review. I hope I didn't offend you Phil. I would appreciate a response, because if I did, I apologize. I believe the strength of your web site comes from everyone on it.
Once a reviewer becomes immune to his audience, then he no longer needs to review. I hope I didn't offend you Phil. I would appreciate a response, because if I did, I apologize. I believe the strength of your web site comes from everyone on it.
Arvin Chang
Senior Member
There are people like that in every forum. That is there are Sony people who put down Canon/Nikon/Minolta, Canon people put down Olympus/Nikon/Sony, etc... so it follows that are there are probably a lot of people here in the Nikon forum that also will trash other companies to make themselves feel better - they feel an attack on their camera is an attack on themselves and they become defensive.
If you go through my message history you will see that first I am loyal to no particular brand (I buy the camera that I think is best) and second (hopefully) I try to accomodate other people's opinions... as opposed to continually pushing my own camera to be the best regardless of what reviews or other people say.
Look at my comment in the F707 vs CP5000 and you still that I'm the first to admit that while I believe the 707 has an edge in resolution and sharpness... it's colors can be funky sometimes. Not to mention the issues with physical size and memory sticks.
--arvin
That's a weird comment.
--arvin
Ok, I rephrase it as "image quality that is slightly below the
level set by previous 4MP/5MP models" I you right that I used "par"
incorrectly. I in-advertently used it because I just read a post by
this guy named Ron Parr who said it was sub-par and then people
were joking about it being "sub-parr"... errrr... nevermind
I really wanted to say in comparison to other top-end prosumer
models, the CP5000 is only in the middle of the pack and not top
dog in image quality (it does perform better than the Minolta D7 in
resolution).
Definitely as many Nikon forum members have already mentioned, it's
small, has great white balance and exposure metering, has a hot
shoe adapter... has a very wide lens... did I mention it was light?
some people are way too serious... there are those who claim Phil's
reviews are wrong, some claim that review don't matter (after the
review came out). some are complaining of some poor sap's (i.e. Me)
poor choice for a single adjective.
--arvin
peripheralfocus
Veteran Member
Just my opinion, but I think the folks who equate your "recommended" rating with "this camera sucks" are filtering their responses through very high and rarefied expectations. They expected or hoped -- or maybe feared -- that the CP5000 would be a landmark camera, and the fact that it's "just" a pretty good advanced amateur digital camera seems like a let-down to them. (And, in one sense, it is a letdown.) To your credit, these forums attract lots of digital camera enthusiasts who are willing and able to argue over 5% differences in noise or lines resolved, but, in my experience, those folks don't always step back and ask themselves the bigger picture questions like "Would this camera satisfy most of the users it's designed for most of the time?" (Not that your forum readers necessarily should care about the overall view. It's a big world, and there's room for all kinds.)
As to the fineness of your rating scale, I'll just offer my own experience. I used to review digital cameras for a magazine called digitalFOTO, which used a 1-5 point scale (and they didn't allow fractions). I often wished for a finer scale, because I'd end up giving two cameras a rating of 4, say, when I really felt that one deserved a 3.8 and the other a 4.2.
So now I review cameras for CNET, which uses a 10-point scale. It's a little better, but I still find myself wishing for a finer scale. (Because, of course, I end up giving an 8 to two cameras, when I really feel that one should have a 7.8 and the other an 8.2. Oy.) Then there's the whole question of how meaningful a single numerical rating is for a thing as complex as a digital camera, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. People like numbers, so magazines give 'em numbers. My own opinion is that the only sensible solution to these kinds of problems is to try to make your written commentary communicate the particular nuances of each camera. I think you do a really good job of that for anyone who takes the time to carefully read your text.
You can't please everybody all the time, as they say.
Bill Liggett
Well-known member
Actually, Phil's review was very similar (but more detailed) to other major reviews. No one gave it "Highly Recommended". All were less enthusiastic than normal. There is a trend. Most of this was known before Phil's review.
This does not mean that you can not take Great Images with the CP5K. You can and many have and will. Also, iNova will sell more eBooks showing CP5K work arounds (rightly so) and remember many, many limitations can be overcome with the Digital Darkroon (PS 6). Just consider the Market for CP5K PhotoShop Actions! Actually, there is a Big PS Action market for most digital cameras. Adobe must be Proud.
This does not mean that you can not take Great Images with the CP5K. You can and many have and will. Also, iNova will sell more eBooks showing CP5K work arounds (rightly so) and remember many, many limitations can be overcome with the Digital Darkroon (PS 6). Just consider the Market for CP5K PhotoShop Actions! Actually, there is a Big PS Action market for most digital cameras. Adobe must be Proud.
--Bill Liggett
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