I really like B&H, but....

Richard Smith41318 · Oct 16, 2006

It would be interesting to know why they made the change.

I own an oven that can turn itself on and off at preset times, this is done
for the benefit of Jewish people who aren't allowed to operate machinery
during the sabbath and similar holy days, so they can start their meal
preparation before sundown without worrying about turning off the oven
after the start of sabbath. Rabbinical authorities have long understood and
accepted this.

Setting up an automated system to take orders over the internet is kind
of the same thing. At the very least I'd like to hear what the Rabbinical
line of reasoning is to say otherwise.

semorg · Oct 16, 2006

Have you been happy with them?

I bought my Pocket Wizards from Adray and they seem very good. But like to have a few more options when I am shopping for best deals or etc.

Thanks.
--
must watch: http://www.climatecrisis.net/
My Latest Gallery: From Peru to Chile: http://www.pbase.com/salim/peruchile2005

semorg · Oct 16, 2006

John Devereux said:
I love B&H. they almost always have the products they say they
have and sell them for the prices they post. It's a solid
professional business. 98% of my online photo purchases are from
B&H.

That being said, I find these times when B&H is closed very
annoying. Why not just let us subit our orders and then fulfill
them when the business next opens? Is this really shameful? We
decide what we want to buy when we're ready, you serve us when you
are ready to come to work.

Most on-line stores don't service your weekend orders until Sunday
night or Monday morning.

The whole fun of online shopping is you get to do it when you have
the information and the time you need to make a buying choice. B&H
is a fairly good site for researching an intended purchase. If B&H
really wants to make shopping on jewish holidays inconvenient for
non-jews they should take down the whole web site so that we can't
do the research and populate our wishlists before making an order.

They need to face this honestly. Putting things on a wish list is
the start of working on an order.
Yup, take it down, it's materially assisting their business during
the sabbath--for shame.

John Devereux
--
Alas, it's not the camera.

I agree with you about the convenient factor and my overall experience with BH in general. However my last experience was not best and I like to find other sellers so I have more options next time.

Also, the whole idea of the internet is that it's 24/7....many store accept order at night and fulfil and ship the next day.

I am not a Rabai or anything, but I can imagine if following sabbath is that important then perhaps they can put up a proxy server in Japan or somewhere else (wher the time zone is a day ahead) and let that server take the saturday orders where it's sunday for the proxy server. And then on Sunday BH can pull all the orders from the japan server and process them

--
must watch: http://www.climatecrisis.net/
My Latest Gallery: From Peru to Chile: http://www.pbase.com/salim/peruchile2005

richardkra · Oct 16, 2006

Because taking the order on the Sabbath or a Holy Day is doing business which is prohibited.
--
Rick

PhotoTraveler · Oct 16, 2006

Sorry, but BH runs a very regular schedule, it's pretty easy to work around. I don't think they have lost very many customers. They haven't gotten to where they are by doing things that destroy their business.

Anyways. Why not complain about all those stores that close on Xmas, or Easter. Those really anoy me. Or simply that the whole end of December gets wasted for this kind of stuff.

Howard · Oct 16, 2006

David,

During my last visit (I work 20 minutes away), a sales person in the store told me that one reason for the change was people placing orders when the store was closed and then complaining they did not get a confirmation email within a reasonable amount of time.

In any event, I see no reason why you can't place the order on Sunday and be just as happy as placing it on Saturday. At least you know someone is monitoring inventory when you place the order, something that did not occur when they accepted orders during the Sabbath.

Howard
-----------------

DRP said:
What has changed during the past year is the ability to place an
online order when they are closed.

I accept and support the observation of their faith, but it still
seems like their website could accept an order anytime it is
convienient for their customers.

The best time for me is normally Saturday morning, but I no longer
have that option.

I hope they consider making this change. - David

Nill Toulme · Oct 16, 2006

DRP said:
It seems like they are becoming much less customer focused.
Success is not always the best teacher, and when it comes to
customer interface issues like the times when they are actually
accepting orders on their website - they seem to be much more
focused much more on their own convenience and holidays than they
are on what is ideal for their customers.

I purchase many things from them, but as a person who works very
long hours during the week, it's always a challenge to get the
timing right to order from them on the weekend. Doing things in a
way that keeps customers coming back is what has made them so
successful; however, it seems like they have made some changes (not
for the better as it relates to their customers). The good news is
that this approach will certainly create a fantastic market
opportunity for an eventual competitor!

I hope they are listening! - David

Jim F. · Oct 16, 2006

Actually the savage (smearedblue) is pretty new here and doesn't really understand much.

According to his previous posts, he only wants to buy things from Costco so he can use them and then return them when the new models are released. He doesn't really want to pay for anything, let alone buy something from B&H, but that store is way out of his class anyway.

He's a real piece of work.....

Numfar · Oct 16, 2006

Shop owners are, of course, free to conduct business as they wish. That's a given. What I think is being suggested, however, is that a website and web orders are about offering a convenience to the customer. It allows a shop to take orders from customers who are either too remote geographically to come to the store's physical location, or unable to come to the store's location at a time when it is open (or both).

I'm sure B&H allows it's incoming business mail to move on Sabbath and religious holidays. Were I to mail in an order on a Friday, the mail service would have it moving on Friday evening and Saturday, and possibly even on Sunday as it flew across the continent. It wouldn't be delivered to them until Monday (or later), but the fact is I'd be able to write out the order, walk to the mail box, and 'send' the order at my convenience, and I doubt B&H would reject any order post marked at a time when they were 'closed'.

So do many believe it should be for their website. We don't expect orders to be filled at 3am, or on a Sunday from any business. In B&H's case, I think most would willingly and respectfully extend that expectation of delay to Jewish observances. But placing an order? That's different to many people. Computers are like that - they can 'hold' an order until the owner is in a position to fill it. Convenient on both ends. And that is the point that is troubling some folks. Why not take an order on a Saturday? The computer is not observing a holiday any more than the mail box at the end of my street. To project holiday observances on the computer system seems, at best, a stretch of strict religious doctrine, and at worst, an imposition of a tenant of faith on customers who, while they may respect others' right to observe as they wish, seek for themselves the right to not be held to the same protocols.

At least that's how I see it.

B

henryp said:
DRP said:

they seem to be much more
focused much more on their own convenience and holidays than they
are on what is ideal for their customers.

Click to expand...

We are certainly sorry this has vexed you. B&H's web site won't
take orders from Friday evening through Saturday night and this has
been the case for about a year now. Our owner elects to put his
faith first and his beliefs before profit. His choice of course.

Even if you could place an order at B&H noon Saturday, it wouldn't
get read or fulfilled until Sunday because there's no one here
Saturday anyway. In the long run, from the satandpoint of when we'd
ship and when you'd get your merchandise, there's no change at all.

Autumn is full of holidays and this year due to the coincidence of
holidays and weekends it seems there are more of them, but we
observe the same schedule every Autumn. We're closed for the 2 days
of Rosh HaShannah and for Yom Kippur (a solemn fast day and a holy
day, but not a holiday per se) and for the week-long holiday of
Sukkos (or Sukkoth if you're from that side of town).

Again, I am sorry if this vexed you.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.

--

At the very begining, I found photography simple: Point the camera and push the button. After several weeks of practice, I discovered I could achieve even better results by turning the camera on and removing the lens cap.

DavidMaven · Oct 16, 2006

semorg said:
I am not a Rabai or anything,

...obvious from your unique spelling of "rabbi"...

semorg said:
but I can imagine if following
sabbath is that important then perhaps they can put up a proxy
server in Japan or somewhere else (wher the time zone is a day
ahead) and let that server take the saturday orders where it's
sunday for the proxy server. And then on Sunday BH can pull all the
orders from the japan server and process them

The good folks running B&H seem to interpret the prohibition against conducting business on the Sabbath strictly, which I totally admire. To them, it would appear, any business on the Sabbath in their home time zone (GMT -5) is business that is prohibited. It is their right to interpret that aspect of Jewish law so strictly.

They are entitled to close their business at any time they desire, and they may suffer an opportunity cost for it, but they seem to make a living despite it by having great selection and service and price.

It's ironic that non-Jewish merchants once used Sunday "Blue Laws" to keep Jews from operating on Sunday when they were already closed on Saturday, leaving them at competitive disadvantage (5-days of selling vs. 6-days) relative to non-Jewish merchants who operated on Saturday.

First people complained that Jews kept their stores open too much, now they complain they are not open enough!

--
[email protected]

Paul Amyes · Oct 16, 2006

DRP said:
I certainly support them taking some time away in observaion of
their faith, but as a great customer of theirs, I have noticed that
they often post a message saying that they are "not accepting
orders at this time". This message now shows up during the
majority of each weekend.

Sabbath runs from sundown on Friday evening to sundown Saturday evening.

Do you have the weekends off, Friday night night to Monday morning is your time right ?

I guess you have Christmas, Easter, and a whole bunch of other holidays, well Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hanah (I think that's how its spelt, I may be wrong) Succoth Chanucah and Purim.

Be grateful they could be Muslims because its the month of Ramadan.

Paul

nikonians · Oct 16, 2006

You have to give them credit! It's a lot of money being lost, but they keep faith. I kind of feel bad for ordering something form some place else, but I had to do it becuase of time.

Regards,
JohnnyK

--
http://www.johnk.smugmug.com

TJ Gator · Oct 16, 2006

B&H LOSES money to follow their faith by closing for religious holidays. I applaud such conviction. Thank God there are people like B&H who put their Faith in God over their love of money.

semorg · Oct 16, 2006

At least quote my earlier point as well:

"I agree with many. It's their store and they have the right to run it based on their religious tradition or how they want it...."

and not just pick a few things to get back to me...

DavidMaven said:
semorg said:

I am not a Rabai or anything,

Click to expand...

...obvious from your unique spelling of "rabbi"...

DavidMaven said:

but I can imagine if following
sabbath is that important then perhaps they can put up a proxy
server in Japan or somewhere else (wher the time zone is a day
ahead) and let that server take the saturday orders where it's
sunday for the proxy server. And then on Sunday BH can pull all the
orders from the japan server and process them

Click to expand...

The good folks running B&H seem to interpret the prohibition
against conducting business on the Sabbath strictly, which I
totally admire. To them, it would appear, any business on the
Sabbath in their home time zone (GMT -5) is business that is
prohibited. It is their right to interpret that aspect of Jewish
law so strictly.

They are entitled to close their business at any time they desire,
and they may suffer an opportunity cost for it, but they seem to
make a living despite it by having great selection and service and
price.

It's ironic that non-Jewish merchants once used Sunday "Blue Laws"
to keep Jews from operating on Sunday when they were already
closed on Saturday, leaving them at competitive disadvantage
(5-days of selling vs. 6-days) relative to non-Jewish merchants who
operated on Saturday.

First people complained that Jews kept their stores open too much,
now they complain they are not open enough!

--
[email protected]

--
must watch: http://www.climatecrisis.net/
My Latest Gallery: From Peru to Chile: http://www.pbase.com/salim/peruchile2005

Donald Cooper · Oct 16, 2006

DavidMaven said:
The good folks running B&H seem to interpret the prohibition
against conducting business on the Sabbath strictly, which I
totally admire.

Islamic religious principles prohibiting interest. Christian religious principles prohibiting blood tranfusions. Fundamental Christian religious principles prohibiting stem cell research. Jewish religious principles prohibiting "business on the Sabbath in their home time zone (GMT -5)". Every religion has its own oddball set of proscriptions. Some are just more detrimental than others. As they go this one is innocuous.

While I can't see any great harm, I find it hard to categorize this as admirable. Thankfully a lot of people not only don't admire this stuff, they ignore it. That's a good thing for otherwise we'd all still be eating turnips and living in straw huts.

Rdefen · Oct 16, 2006

Sunnyvale, CA? Off the boat how many days?

You should get out in the world and meet some more people. They come in many shapes and sizes and can be quite a lot of fun.

PhotoTraveler · Oct 16, 2006

sorry, didn't get the parent post. My apologies for responding to yours.

FretNoMore · Oct 17, 2006

Internet shopping may be a lot about convenience and being able to shop at other than normal business hours... however, I have on occasion made an impulse buys on weekends, once or twice when my judgment and restraint were suppressed by a bit of alcohol... not that I regret owning my fine Canon equipment but my economy would be better off if B&H were closed a little more often. Particularily at those times when I'm not working.

Anders @ http://www.andersostberg.com *

rb49 · Oct 17, 2006

Well, it's the Fall again. And just like last year and the year prior, there's a carping thread about how the Jewish holy days inconvenience all of us pious Christians. Kinda reminds me of the medieval massacres of Jews which took place around Easter. Just no bloodshed here.

What is so difficult to understand? B&H is owned by ultra-orthodox Jews; their faith rules every aspect of their lives. They will not do business or work or profit during their holy times. How refeshing! People who actually adhere to their beliefs.

We understand too little about our Jewish brothers... as this thread demonstrates. It's not too tough to learn a bit on the net to help put their practices in perspective. I was moved to learn that in the past, Jews have died rather than violate their sabbath or holy day regulations.

As a Quaker, B&H's unwavering steadfastness to their faith speaks to me.
--
rb49

Barugon · Oct 17, 2006

DRP said:
This is not a bash of B&H, it is constructive feedback designed to help them get better.

Then why are you posting it here instead of communicating it directly to them?

--
Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.

http://www.pbase.com/dot_borg

I really like B&H, but....

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