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K10 / XTi: All things being equal...

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As I posted elsewhere in response to a similar question, if I were you I would choose the Pentax for its:
  • Viewfinder
  • Ergonomics
  • Shake Reduction
IQ is likely to be similar at practical image sizes.

If small size/weight are paramount then the Canon might be what you are looking for. You will give up some significant other features/characteristics, though.

--
Jim King - Retired Colormonger - Suburban Detroit, Michigan, USA; GMT -4h (EDT)



* * * * *
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
  • Sir Winston Churchill
* * * * *
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
  • Albert Einstein
 
well, I cannot speak for his review.....I can only give you my practical experience. I shoot mostly dance competitions and ballets....in very strange and low light, always at 1600 or 3200 iso and the original istD delivers the lowest noise. I have friends using the newer Pentax DS and DL that would have a different opinion. It seems to be only the original that has the low noise. With that said, I am getting rid of the XTi and getting a MKII N to replace it, but the Ist D I am keeping.
 
You and others are looking at a snapshot in time. A few months from now, a lot may have happened. Canon may have released another camera that competes better with the Pentax. New lenses may come out. Regardless of what you buy now, you may decide to upgrade camera bodies in the future. Which brand (not necessarily Canon or Pentax) might provide the best path to whereever?
--
Leon
http://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm
 
Ken, you must be joking. You try to compare cameras which are from completely different levels.

Canon 400D is an Canon's entry level. Pentax K10D is supposed to compete (featurewise) with Canon 30D and Nikon D80-D200. It is just so underpriced that pricewise it looks like and competitor for 400D.

Currently DSLRs are so good at image quality that you must be real measurbator pixelpeeper and compare 100% crops to find small differences. All that matters are features, ergonomics, usability. And in this area K10D is outstanding, 400D isn't competitor for it at all.

--
Edvinas
 
1) K10D have environmental seals. 5D does not. All Pro bodie like 1D or D2 series have.
2) K10D has ISO in viewfinder. 5D does not. 1D series has.

3) K10D has more RAW process option, including the RAW button. RAW handling is most important for Professionals.

Why K10D is way above D30?
1) K10D has no pre-programed shooting modes (i.e. Sports, Portrait...)
2) K10D has USER (Custom) mode instead, just like 5D has.

As for reasons why K10D not perceived as PRO?
1) Price too low to be PRO?
2) Has SR and Dust Reduction, these are totally unpro-ish?
3) APC sensor? D2x uses APC sensor, thus unprofessional?

4) K10D not fast enough? 1Ds only 4fps, 5D is 3fsp, all not as fast as 30D. Which is more pro?
--
Muzi
Steven Noyes said:
It is closer (but not quite) a 30D class beast and a bit more below
the D200. But it offers some amazing performance for the buck and
it would be hard not to choose it if:

1) you have no glass.

2) 10MP is enough for you.

3) you are looking at under $1000.

It is a sweet looking option offering most (plus some extras) of
what the D200/D30 offer at a cheaper price.

But it is along way from the 1 series and D2 series.

Steven
Click to expand...
 
645D said:
1) K10D have environmental seals. 5D does not. All Pro bodie like
1D or D2 series have.
Click to expand...
1) 5D has a huge 17 frame RAW buffer. K10D only has a 9 frame buffer. This is extremely important in operation when shooting RAW. Much more than DNG as an option.
645D said:
2) K10D has ISO in viewfinder. 5D does not. 1D series has.
Click to expand...
2) 5D has a MUCH large sensor. Pro cameras like the 1 series also have a larger sensor.
645D said:
3) K10D has more RAW process option, including the RAW button. RAW
handling is most important for Professionals.
Click to expand...
3) 5D has a true MLU (like the 1 series and D2 series) the K10D does not. This is critical when using long lenses and other big glass like many pros use. What is the point of the RAW button. I know what it does, but what is the point. Sounds lots like the print button to me IMHO.

4) 5D has more JPEG procession options. For many pros this is very important.
645D said:
Why K10D is way above D30?
1) K10D has no pre-programed shooting modes (i.e. Sports, Portrait...)
Click to expand...
1) The 30D is what ??? 5 fps?
645D said:
2) K10D has USER (Custom) mode instead, just like 5D has.
Click to expand...
2) The 3D has a magnesium composite body. Like the 1 series and D2/D200
645D said:
As for reasons why K10D not perceived as PRO?
1) Price too low to be PRO?
Click to expand...
Plastic body?
645D said:
2) Has SR and Dust Reduction, these are totally unpro-ish?
Click to expand...
the 30D has ISO 3200 ISO extension. Also already has a huge selection of in lens IS already available. I question the Dust Reduction of the A100 (so-so ability) VS the Olympus SWF (Canon uses a similar technique).
645D said:
3) APC sensor? D2x uses APC sensor, thus unprofessional?
Click to expand...
Don't fool yourself on having a 30D as a backup to a 5D/1Ds/1Ds Mk II FF body is a great option.
645D said:
4) K10D not fast enough? 1Ds only 4fps, 5D is 3fsp, all not as fast
Click to expand...
1Ds is 4 years old, 3 fps and > 1MP more.
1Ds Mk II is 2 years old, 1 fps more + almost 7MP more.

5D is almost 2MP more and same fps with a 17 RAW buffer VS a 9 frame RAW buffer. Not bad for a driver chip three years older.
645D said:
as 30D. Which is more pro?
Click to expand...
Mostly because of construction and higher speed of operation, the 30D still has a slight edge. The K10D is a sweet camera (I have been saying that over and over) but it is WAY below the 1 series and really is between the rebel and the 30D. In many aspects it is right below the 30D and way above the Rebel. The fun part is the K10D is clearly above the D80 and still cheaper.

Steven

--
---
2006 Southern Arizona Monsoon Wildflowers
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_summer_2006_ii

Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006

 
hardsuit wrote:
10mp = the canon is useing the smaller cmos 10mp sensor.
not like the 20/30d with a bigger and better quality sensor.
the pentax is useing a bigger 10mp ccd compared to canon.

noise = look at phils reviews cmos vs ccd.
while the cmos (canon) is lower noise its quality suffers.
pentax uses the same sony ccd used by minolta, samsung, nikon.
while the ccd is noiser by default , it produces more like film grain.
canon rife with high color noise wich mars low contrast subjects.
i.e. hair, dark skin, trees, etc.

durability.
the K10d is a metal body . canon plastic matchbox kit body.
the K10d is a dustproof/ water resistant body.
oh, canon cannot get wet or play in the sand.
oh, and lets not forget the pentax
is standard with a metal mount lens. canon is still a plastic kit kens.
--
' lets see what's out there.....engage'
 
Ken,

My bias first . . . my first SLR was/is a Pentax MX that I purchased in 1976. Still have it and it still functions perfectly. Two years ago, I purchased my first dSLR, again a Pentax. I've ordered and paid for a K10D and expect delivery sometime in November.

Now . . . if you shoot sports, or any fast action and need a high fps count, then the Canon is a better camera for you. Canon also has fantastic long focal length lenses.

If the above is not that important to you, then the Pentax K10D would be a better camera. Keep in mind that you can use every Pentax lens manufactured in the past 50 years, including M42 screw mount, medium format 645 and 6x7 lenses as well as every Pentax K-mount lens; (the M42 and MF lenses need an adapter).

I'm happy and satisfied with my Pentax bodies and lenses, but realize that they are not the best choice for sports. However, shake reduction for every lens ever manufactured as well as weather seals are quite an attractive 'feature'.

Bottom line . . . both cameras are good. Read up on the specs, go to the store and handle them side-by-side, review the images . . . then decide in confidence that you have made the best choice for your circumstances.

p.s. The Pentax kit lens (18-55) is the "best" kit lens available from any manufacturer. Not the best lens of any focal length nor the fastest, but quite a bargain for what it costs.

--
Steven
GMT -8
 
if the Pentax people were as warlike as most of the other brand users ;)

If you don't want to start a war, the best bet is actually to make separate threads in each brand forum. That way you keep the fanatics from each brand off each others' necks because they won't see each other in the same thread! :)
 
why the 30D is derided as little more than a firmware upgrade of the 20D with a larger screen: because the 20D still has just about everything the 30D has!

In terms of build, shooting speed and image quality the two are identical and just as much above the D80 as each other.
DougJGreen said:
It's a lesser, older camera, period. The D80 is closer to the
Canon 30D except that it's higher in resolution. And I am sure,
BTW, that the Canon 30D is soon to be replaced by a 10 MP 40D by
the time PMA rolls around.

Also, I think you really ought to wait for the K10D to actually
prove to be as wonderful as Pentax claims it to be, before
anointing it with your TWO top slots.

Whether or not you think the Pentax K10D is better than the Nikon
D80, or vice versa is obviously a matter of subjective opinion, as
they are pretty clearly very close to each other in ability and
features, with The Pentax having the edge of in-body IS, which may
or may not be a big deal, depending on the needs of the particular
user, and the Nikon D80 pretty clearly having the edge of a vast
choice of modern system accessories behind it which dwarfs that of
the Pentax, not the least of which is an upgrade path to
pro-caliber gear if you need it (something completely lacking for
every system besides Nikon and Canon).

And FYI, I am NOT a Nikon DSLR user, just an objective observer
(who happens to be an Olympus user). Were I deciding on an entry
point TODAY, I would certainly be choosing between the Pentax K10D
and the Nikon D80, but I clearly don't see any vast superiority of
the Pentax relative to the Nikon, which happens to be available
sooner than the Pentax, quite possibly explaining Pentax's need to
undercut the Nikon D80 on price.

I might also point out that NEITHER the Nikon nor Pentax 18-55mm
kit lens (nor the Canon's for that matter) is, frankly, worthy of
serious use. Nikon, however, offers quite a few more interesting
reasonably priced choices (such as the 18-70 and 18-135, both of
which are clearly better).
Click to expand...
 
volosong said:
Now . . . if you shoot sports, or any fast action and need a high
fps count, then the Canon is a better camera for you. Canon also
has fantastic long focal length lenses.
Click to expand...
Well, it would be true if you would talk about Pentax *ist series and K100D/110D. However K10D is another story. Both 400D and K10D are capable of 3fps, 10 RAW and 9 RAW respectively, K10D can shoot JPEG forever (i.e. until you have space on your memory card). So, no advantage for 400D here. BTW, it seems that K10D AF focus is quicker than AF of 400D (source -- movie in youtobe where AF speed of 400D and Samsung relabelled K10D was compared). So no advantage here either.

--
Edvinas
 
DougJGreen said:
It's a lesser, older camera, period. The D80 is closer to the
Canon 30D except that it's higher in resolution.
Click to expand...
so what! 2mp isn't foing to make that much difference anyway and 5fps is unreplaceable if one needs the rapid fire.
DougJGreen said:
BTW, that the Canon 30D is soon to be replaced by a 10 MP 40D by
the time PMA rolls around.
Click to expand...
that doesn't make the slightest difference, it's beside the point and totaly irelevant here.
DougJGreen said:
Also, I think you really ought to wait for the K10D to actually
prove to be as wonderful as Pentax claims it to be, before
anointing it with your TWO top slots.
Click to expand...
the k10d can't be much worse than the a100 as far as jpeg quality goes. and being a pro body and offereing good raw (think d80/a100) for that price makes all the difference in the world.
DougJGreen said:
Whether or not you think the Pentax K10D is better than the Nikon
D80, or vice versa is obviously a matter of subjective opinion, as
they are pretty clearly very close to each other in ability and
features, with The Pentax having the edge of in-body IS, which
or may not be a big deal, depending on the needs of the particular
Click to expand...
pentax also offers a rugged weather sealed body. again, a pro feature that is irreplaceable. speaking of which, how about k10d's backwards compatibility?
DougJGreen said:
user, and the Nikon D80 pretty clearly having the edge of a vast
choice of modern system accessories behind it which dwarfs that of
the Pentax, not the least of which is an upgrade path to
pro-caliber gear if you need it (something completely lacking for
every system besides Nikon and Canon).
Click to expand...
i think you might be overbidding on the d80 just a bit, my friend. i like the d80 a lot myself but let's not trash the k10d for that.

so, your point is that no-one should be anything else but niko and canon because they might wanna upgrade later?!? silly boy! some might say the same thing only considering just canon. ff, that's why.

needless to say, i completely disagree. i think one should buy the body that suits him now. when the time comes to upgrade, the market will already have changed and who knows what things will look like then.
DougJGreen said:
And FYI, I am NOT a Nikon DSLR user, just an objective observer
(who happens to be an Olympus user). Were I deciding on an
point TODAY, I would certainly be choosing between the Pentax
K10D
and the Nikon D80, but I clearly don't see any vast superiority of
the Pentax relative to the Nikon, which happens to be available
sooner than the Pentax, quite possibly explaining Pentax's need to
undercut the Nikon D80 on price.
Click to expand...
i AM a nikon owner and user. as for the pentax pricing, i think it is a little much more than that. i don't think it's just about the d80. i think pentax is pushed from the back by samsung and wants to establish themselves as the number 3 dSLR brand. the agressive pricing the k10d comes with is nothing more than acquiring a bigger customer base.
DougJGreen said:
I might also point out that NEITHER the Nikon nor Pentax 18-55mm
kit lens (nor the Canon's for that matter) is, frankly, worthy of
serious use. Nikon, however, offers quite a few more interesting
reasonably priced choices (such as the 18-70 and 18-135, both of
which are clearly better).
Click to expand...
again, that is completely beside the point. people that buy these sorts of lenses will also take a look at third party lenses like sigma/tamron and the choices there are much more relevant than the fact that nikon has a few lenses that the competition does not.

cheery-o!
 
True. Given a choice, I would opt for 5fps for the high school sports that I frequently shoot for the local paper. My *istDs bodies don't autofocus fast enough nor have a (relatively) high fps. More times than not, I manual focus and shoot JPEG just to get a higher fps. Still miss too many shots and post processing is a little more difficult since RAW images are not available.

Played with a pre-production 0.2 firmware K10D and it indeed focuses very, very quickly (compared to the Ds). Was told that a higher fps rate was not possible because of using a dual channel image processing algorithm that Pentax will employ in the K10D. Personally, I'll trade fps for image quality . . . and work harder on anticipation of sports action.
Edvinas said:
volosong said:
Now . . . if you shoot sports, or any fast action and need a high
fps count, then the Canon is a better camera for you. Canon also
has fantastic long focal length lenses.
Click to expand...
Well, it would be true if you would talk about Pentax *ist series
and K100D/110D. However K10D is another story. Both 400D and K10D
are capable of 3fps, 10 RAW and 9 RAW respectively, K10D can shoot
JPEG forever (i.e. until you have space on your memory card). So,
no advantage for 400D here. BTW, it seems that K10D AF focus is
quicker than AF of 400D (source -- movie in youtobe where AF speed
of 400D and Samsung relabelled K10D was compared). So no advantage
here either.

--
Edvinas
Click to expand...
--
Steven
GMT -8
 
Joe0Bloggs said:
if the Pentax people were as warlike as most of the other brand
users ;)
Click to expand...
We don't need to be. We let the quality of our cameras 'fight' for us. When you know all the cameras, the Pentax is obviously 'heads and shoulders' above all the rest.

Just kidding! Don't think anybody makes a "bad" dSLR these days. Just depends on what minor features one wants in their cameras and what existing glass they own. Most Pentax owners realize that their camera is not absoluetly perfect and that not one size fits all. Bodies come and go, good glass lasts forever.

--
Steven
GMT -8
 
Edvinas said:
Ken, you must be joking. You try to compare cameras which are from
completely different levels.

Canon 400D is an Canon's entry level. Pentax K10D is supposed to
compete (featurewise) with Canon 30D and Nikon D80-D200. It is just
so underpriced that pricewise it looks like and competitor for 400D.
Click to expand...
Is it under priced or are the others over priced?
If Pentax is making a profit on them, you can't claim they are under priced.
 
I think there are good reasons why certain brands' users tend to become fanatics while others' don't.

For example, Olympus and Sigma each have technological points that makes them different from others, such that they are superior in one way and inferior in another way.

Oly has sensor filter and (seems like) consistently high quality glass, vs noisy sensors and a lens design philosophy that makes no sense (extreme telecentricity), on which Oly even bases much propaganda.

Sigma of course has the Foveon, which gives per-pixel sharpness vs high noise, and also spartan camera features.

So brand supporters tout their strong points while critics concentrate on the bad points.

KM is more even--it had one standout point (AS) with numerous minor niggles. (mainly general reliability problems, I think, esp. focus & flash) I guess the niggles were serious enough to humble potential fanatics and also not obvious enough to be picked up and bashed on repeatedly.

Pentax cameras are the lowest profile--no selling point except for that elusive but all-important thing called 'handling'. And those who are sold on such a subtle point are also wise enough, it seems, to know that it's impossible to sell others on this point over the Internet. (although Phil's review comes close?) (maybe they'd have better luck in a camera shop :)
volosong said:
Joe0Bloggs said:
if the Pentax people were as warlike as most of the other brand
users ;)
Click to expand...
We don't need to be. We let the quality of our cameras 'fight' for
us. When you know all the cameras, the Pentax is obviously 'heads
and shoulders' above all the rest.

Just kidding! Don't think anybody makes a "bad" dSLR these days.
Just depends on what minor features one wants in their cameras and
what existing glass they own. Most Pentax owners realize that
their camera is not absoluetly perfect and that not one size fits
all. Bodies come and go, good glass lasts forever.

--
Steven
GMT -8
Click to expand...
 
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
Do you have any thought to the reasons why you want a DSLR, and the
kind of shooting you plan to do? What have you been shooting until
now? It seems like if you do not have glass you are probably
coming from a P&S but I don't want to make any assumptions as to
your experience...
Click to expand...
Kendall:

Thank you for not making assumptions..

I have been shooting with a Minolta Dimage 7 ever since it was introduced. The reason I want to step up because I feel I have used the D7 to its limitations and have grown tired of some of the issues with it such as high noise, extreme appetite for batteries, slow AF and the limitations of a fixed 7 times lens among other issues I suppose.

Don't get me wrong, the D7 has been a great camera for what it is/was, and it has allowed me to produce a lot of work of which I make my living at. I print a lot of my pieces on canvas and have been able to produce some fairly large work from 5MP, but I am getting a lot of requests for even larger pieces and a jump from 5 MP to 10, will be a substantial benefit to me.

Continuious shooting doesn't mean a lot to me as most of my work is florals, landscapes, occasionally some wildlife, etc.

If you are interested, take a look at http://www.klsimages.com for examples of the type of things I have been doing with the Minolta.

Thanks for your interest Kendall.

Sincerely,
--
Kenneth Lane Smith
 
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