"If I only had the S3 sensor in a D200 body" !!

--

Or before that , "the S2 sensor in a good Nikon body", "the S2 sensor in a D70 body", "that's all I want" !!! We heard it over and over, I've said it myself. So what's the problem now ? It sounds to me like we are getting that from Fuji plus a little dressing.

Certainly in the wedding industry it should work. I feel it will work for me, there are still unanswered questions but only time will answer those ( cost , buffer etc..).

I guess what I'm saying is so far they are speaking of delivering what many of us asked for.
David

The first problem that springs to mind is having to wait until next year to get hold of it.

Adrian

Adrian Roy said:

The first problem that springs to mind is having to wait until next
year to get hold of it.

Adrian

Click to expand...

--

That's typical Fuji. i just hope they deliver this time, I waited similarly for the S3 and didn't bite ! I really hope they don't dumb down the D200 too badly. I'm nearly 100% sure the image quality will be what I need for weddings and portraits.
David

it would be nicer if Fuji comes out with a Full Frame sensor, but I guess that is the S6 or S7 or S30 ?

you just might get it.
--
See them walking hand in hand across the bridge at midnight
Heads turning as the lights flashing out it's so bright
Then walk right out to the fourline track
There's a camera rolling on her back, on her back
And I sense the rhythm humming in a frenzy all the way down her spine

but the problem with fuji is that their dslrs are way overprized ...
and shelling out 2300 $ for a sensor i already have will be some annoyance.
--
greetz, pam

I need more resolution, not same resolution, in a good quality imaging !

My only beef with the S5 at this point is frame per second. 3 fps is ok, not great. But according to Thom Hogan's response to one of my posts, 3 fps only applies to no extended DR. With extended DR, it 's only 1 or 1.5 fps.

KTH said:

My only beef with the S5 at this point is frame per second. 3 fps
is ok, not great. But according to Thom Hogan's response to one of
my posts, 3 fps only applies to no extended DR. With extended DR,
it 's only 1 or 1.5 fps.

Click to expand...

It's 1.5 fps.

The speedier Nikon D200 moves 10 milion pixels x 12 bit = 15 MB over 4 channels at 5 fps, which is 75 MB/sec or 18.75/channel/sec.

The Fuji S5 has to move 12 milion pixels x 14 bit = 21 MB over "?" channels at 1.5 fps, which is 31.5 MB/sec. If there is only one channel, this is almost double what the D200 can do over a single channel.

So the real problem is that the S5 sensor does not have more than 2 channels.

Do not forget that even the Fuji S5 is "a mere 6 MP camera" it really has 12 million pixels and records 14 bit of info from all of them, about 1.4 times more than the Nikon D200 at 10MP and 12 bit.

--
Radu Grozescu

http://www.RaduGrozescu.com
Corporate & Editorial Photography

Radu Grozescu said:

So the real problem is that the S5 sensor does not have more than 2
channels.

Click to expand...

Can you explain what this means?

--
JCDoss

if they came out with this camera for the 4Q of 2005 or 1Q for 2006 than it would be good. But being realistic this camera will not be available until 2Q of 2007, by that time Nikon and Canon will be releasing 12MP consumer level DSLR.

the less convincing it looks. They must be the only company that seems to suggest a technological standstill (sensor) 3 years later. This is - when you take a step back - almost impossible to believe. 6+6/ 400% DR is exactly the same thing as 3y ago. That is nice, but once that I have become used to get sharp 12MP pictures from my 5d, I have a hard time to accept the soft FUji look of fake upinterpolated 6MP images.

Even if any have said they wanted the S3 sensor in a d200 body, in reality Fuji should deliver both - a better body with an upgraded sensor. And the sensor should not only be "just acceptable" in resolution right now, but also able to compete in lets say the next 3 years.

I cannot see to pay 1600 (or whatever it may cost) for a camera that is in reality 2-3 years behind what it should be. At the time of its release.

Fact is: The S5 is what the S3 should have been - 3y ago, nothing else...

regards, Bernie

Unfortunately those 10-12mp consumer cameras also come with banding issues, poor low light capabilities, worse DR, and dull, flat colors. Oh yeah, a less capable body. But hey, the wonderful thing about being a consumer these days is that you can buy what you want, pass on what you don't, and make fun of everyone who doesn't totally agree with you.

1.5 fps is a pretty bad joke! What is Fuji thinking????

FWIW, I'm OK with the 6x6 sensor res but the lack of speed is not acceptable. Shame on you Fuji!

Fool me once shame on you .......... fool me twice......

Regards
JohnG

Radu Grozescu said:

KTH said:

My only beef with the S5 at this point is frame per second. 3 fps
is ok, not great. But according to Thom Hogan's response to one of
my posts, 3 fps only applies to no extended DR. With extended DR,
it 's only 1 or 1.5 fps.

Click to expand...

It's 1.5 fps.

The speedier Nikon D200 moves 10 milion pixels x 12 bit = 15 MB
over 4 channels at 5 fps, which is 75 MB/sec or 18.75/channel/sec.

The Fuji S5 has to move 12 milion pixels x 14 bit = 21 MB over "?"
channels at 1.5 fps, which is 31.5 MB/sec. If there is only one
channel, this is almost double what the D200 can do over a single
channel.

So the real problem is that the S5 sensor does not have more than 2
channels.

Do not forget that even the Fuji S5 is "a mere 6 MP camera" it
really has 12 million pixels and records 14 bit of info from all of
them, about 1.4 times more than the Nikon D200 at 10MP and 12 bit.

--
Radu Grozescu

http://www.RaduGrozescu.com
Corporate & Editorial Photography

Click to expand...

--
Fuji S3, Nikon D50 + a lot of Nikon glass.

JCDoss said:

Radu Grozescu said:

So the real problem is that the S5 sensor does not have more than 2
channels.

Click to expand...

Can you explain what this means?

Click to expand...

It was a reply to an earlier poster which was complaining about the low fps (frames per second) of the announced Fuji S5, especially in wide DR.

In this digital age, the fps is not a camera only function, we all know that the Nikon D200 body can do 5 fps, but depends on how fast you can move the data out of the sensor.

Nikon achieved 5 fps on the D200 by using a special designed sensor which has 4 parallel channels for data output. This means that the data is moved from the sensor (almost) 4 times faster than using a single channel.

The Nikon D80 has a 2 channel architecture, but it only do 3 fps, 10 MP x 3fps = 30 MP/sec.

D200: 10 MP x 5 fps = 50 MP/sec, almost as good as the D2x.

The D2x has 4 channels but for 8 fps it reduces the frame to about 7 MP, so 7MP x 8fps = 56 MP/sec and 12 MP x 5 fps = 60 MP/sec.

QED

On the other hand, the Fuji S5 have to move about 1.4 times more data from the sensor (as compared to a Nikon D200) and to achieve high fps would need a similar multi channel solution. But, probably for technical reasons, it could not be done.

You have the numbers in my previous post, just there I used MB (megabytes) because I compared the Fuji 14bit/pixel files with the Nikon 12 bit/pixel files and in this post I used MP (megapixels) since I compared only Nikon cameras.

Also, do not forget that all the "banding" in early D200 cameras was due to the multi channel architecture using multiple converters which were not perfectly matched to each other, unlike the D2x which had not any banding problems due to higher quality (and more costly) electronics.

I hope this explanation makes some sense, English is not my primary language.

--
Radu Grozescu

http://www.RaduGrozescu.com
Corporate & Editorial Photography

Bernie,

I'd have to agree with you if (and this is a big if) the sensor has not improved. Fuji does still state 100% to 400% DR but no-one currently knows if the 100% for the S5 sensor is the same as the 100% for the S3 sensor. It may turn out that the 100% for the S5 sensor is a stop or so more than the S3 sensor. It may also turn out that the noise levels are much better in the newer sensor. I will wait for tests before jumping to any conclusions.

--
Ulli Pietsch

Bernie Ess said:

I cannot see to pay 1600 (or whatever it may cost) for a camera
that is in reality 2-3 years behind what it should be. At the time
of its release.

Click to expand...

That's funny, because the Canon 30D is the Canon 20D with a bigger LCD, and tons of people switched just because it was newer. They did absolutely nothing to the sensor at all, period.

I'm not saying anything about the S5. All I'm saying is that Canon almost nothing to improve the 20D and they apparently cashed in.

--
JCDoss

Radu Grozescu wrote:
That made perfect sense! But my last question has to do with the following:

Member said:

Member said:

Radu Grozescu said:

So the real problem is that the S5 sensor does not have more than 2
channels.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

and

Member said:

On the other hand, the Fuji S5 have to move about 1.4 times more
data from the sensor (as compared to a Nikon D200) and to achieve
high fps would need a similar multi channel solution. But, probably
for technical reasons, it could not be done.

Click to expand...

How do you know how many channels the S5 sensor will have? It's not exactly the same sensor, after all.

Member said:

Also, do not forget that all the "banding" in early D200 cameras
was due to the multi channel architecture using multiple converters
which were not perfectly matched to each other...

Click to expand...

Also, wasn't this problem with the D200 fixed via firmware? I'm coming from the Canon side, so I don't know.

My Canon 20D has some problems with horizontal banding, but only with in-camera generated JPGs and only at high ISOs. I'm sure this is a different problem, since I can avoid it by processing RAW files with ACR.

--
JCDoss

JCDoss said:

I'm not saying anything about the S5. All I'm saying is that Canon
almost nothing to improve the 20D and they apparently cashed in.

Click to expand...

Well, you always have also those who will "upgrade" for just a new name of the camera. Even if the 30d were 10MP this would be a minor update, not worth upgrading.

The thing is that people have become used to buy a new camera every year almost, which of course is insane...

I am actually waiting for a kind of definitive camera which doesn't leave important wishes. So far all cameras are more or less compromises, thats why people jump on every minor upddate, because all the time something is missing.

For me that camera would be: A FF camera, with 12-16MP, high DR, low noise and good color would be enough for several years. Like a S6 pro.

But seeing what they have come up with after 3 years really completely made me loose my confidence in them. I doubt Fuji will ever deliver that "real thing". Their whole line-up seems like a moment- to moment bricolage with a few strong points, and a lot of compromises. No clear overall strategy.

I actually suppose that in the end Canon or even Nikon are more likely to offer an upgraded sensor technology because competition will force them to do so, and they are in full control of their own lens mount, bodies and sensors (Canon, that is...), whereas Fuji is always depending on Nikon. In the long run this will pull them in a less and less competitive position.

regards, Bernie

Ulli Pietsch said:

It may turn out that the 100% for the S5
sensor is a stop or so more than the S3 sensor. It may also turn
out that the noise levels are much better in the newer sensor.

Click to expand...

I am abolutely sure that the noise levels will be clearly better, but noise is not the most important thing.

Given their progress in compact camera sensors (F11/ F30) they should have translated that at least partly in their DSLR sensor. 10+10 is the least I would want to have. It is a minimum now. If they would drop the useless Fuji- up- interpolation and just leave it at 10, that would be great.

regards, Bernie