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It's me. I wrote something reasonable and well-founded.

You called me stupid. Don't apologize. You're just showing your ignorance. Sorry about that. You no doubt MEAN well. In a neo-con sort of way. Your viewpoint is just a wee bit narrow. I don't like self-mutilation. I don't think it's great art. I think it's immature go-for-the-shock tactics, for whatever motivation (art, profits, commercial appeal, whatever). I recently warned a 4-year old against watching a violent TV show. He responded, "I like violence". So be it. Too young to understand what's behind it. I doubt he'll ever become a self-mutilating artist.
 
PIXSurgeon said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
PIXSurgeon said:
And
keeping your body's and life's integrity (which is one of the most
precious gifts on this universe) is one of them.
Click to expand...
Sez who? You?
Click to expand...
... I say it. ME, ME, ME. Ands if you want more "MEs", please,
let's embrace my challenge and address the open audience as I
proposed you. Let's gauge the temperature. 8-)
Click to expand...
Sure, if you like. I'll bet you a dollar that over 90% of the audience has no problems with earrings.
PIXSurgeon said:
PIXSurgeon said:
Let's see how consistent you are. Do you find that all of the
following are ABSOLUTE, UNQUESTIONABLE violations of the SACRED?
  • Breast implants
  • Tattoos
  • Earrings
  • Piercings
...and let's not even get into smoking, drinking, and Kentucky
Fried Chicken.
Click to expand...
In essence, YES. The difference here is the degree of
"constructiveness". We are, indeed, violating these principles, but
the effects are less evident or the message sent "less destructive"
(that's the difference). But, in any case, you are CORRECT, and we
are also dealing with cultural left-overs.
Click to expand...
Ah, so suddenly your ABSOLUTE UNQUESTIONABLES become matters of degree. Now who's the relativist?
PIXSurgeon said:
PIXSurgeon said:
If you do not find some of these ABSOLUTE, UNQUESTIONABLE
violations of the SACRED, would you please explain why, and how you
reconcile this with your stated premise?
Click to expand...
Well, it is very simple: I do not have:
PIXSurgeon said:
  • Breast implants
  • Tattoos
  • Earrings
  • Piercings
Click to expand...
nor I get into get into smoking, drinking, and Kentucky, Fried
Chicken, etc. All these our kids are seeing, and that's their
reference (you should see their friends faces and drooling when
they come and taste our home-made food which is so FREAKING RARE to
have parents cooking at home around here... :- )

That it may later be shaken / broken / destroyed, it may... but it
will not because of me or my wife (for sure). I will not carry the
weight of such inmense lack of responsibility (that is, for a
disfuntional core values system).
Click to expand...
Hm. Didn't you just say that we should take the question to the wider public? If what you're saying is true (that home cooking is rare and KFC is common), what does this do to your argument?

You appear to be contradicting yourself on a number of points.

(1) You're repeatedly appealing to the "wider public," which implies that norms for what's acceptable and what isn't are socially determined, yet

(2) You repeatedly refer to "absolute values", yet

(3) You admit that (a) pierced ears are not the same as (b) breast implants which are not the same as (c) lacerating yourself as artistic expression, yet

(4) You fail to explain, relative to a consistent value system, why (c) is worse than (b) or (a).

Bottom line: I think you're mistaking your personal "ewww!" reaction for a universal moral absolute.
PIXSurgeon said:
PIXSurgeon said:
Which is kinda odd, if they are so simple and elemental.
Click to expand...
...Because people take the basics for granted and... they just forget!
PIXSurgeon said:
Pix, you lost me here completely. What exactly are you saying? From
where I'm at, you're the one dodging the questions, not me or
anyone else.
Click to expand...
...Check my post, below...

Now, if you excuse me, a delicious lunch awaits me in our kitchen
(courtesy of my wife) and the smell already calls for a "pause"
here. I know it's a bit late here (1:55pm EST, Florida) but, in any
case, see you after lunch!
Click to expand...
Same here, only it's dinner. :-)

Petteri
--
[ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
[ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
What about it do you object to that much? There's nothing particularly dangerous about hardcore punk rock concerts, other than the noise levels, and I wear earplugs to them myself so on the kid they'd go without saying.

(Of course I'd get the kid out of there if s/he didn't enjoy it. I certainly wouldn't drag them there against their will, but if a kid wanted to go, I can't see any reason why I shouldn't take them. Not that I go to hardcore punk rock concerts much these days.)

Petteri
--
[ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
[ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Steve Mitchell said:
It's not fake (see earlier post). May be tame to you. Not ashamed
to say it shook me up a bit being a few feet away. I'm not
de-sensitized enough to think this was tame.
Click to expand...
Your photos may be fine photographs of the musicians, but are a failure if you wanted to convey the shocking scene you witnessed from close-up. My attitude about the singer's action changed when I read your description of what he did to shed the blood. Just looking at the photos don't bring much shock or disgust.

I guess you were in too much shock to focus your creativity on capturing truly shocking photos.

Mr. Steve
 
Petteri Sulonen said:
Some hard core punk rockers I know have kids. They're perfectly
responsible parents. The kids sort of tag along to practice and
even the occasional gig, and don't seem any the worse for it.

Petteri
--
Click to expand...
I've seen very young children brought to loud rock concerts and the parents have them near the big amplifiers. That's parental negligence/abuse, and I'm glad to hear you'd use ear plugs. But since you say that hard core punk rock concerts are fine for little kids, I guess you must be going to some pretty tame concerts. Or the punks aren't what they used to be. Even sweet-heart pre-debutantes may dress up in leather/chains/spiky clothing/accessories.

One question: How do you explain to a 4-year old why somebody has metal objects stuck through their lips, tongue, and eyebrows?
 
Petteri Sulonen said:
What about it do you object to that much? There's nothing
particularly dangerous about hardcore punk rock concerts, other
than the noise levels, and I wear earplugs to them myself so on the
kid they'd go without saying.

(Of course I'd get the kid out of there if s/he didn't enjoy it. I
certainly wouldn't drag them there against their will, but if a kid
wanted to go, I can't see any reason why I shouldn't take them. Not
that I go to hardcore punk rock concerts much these days.)
Click to expand...
I was thinking about the noise levels. Also, some groups do scary things on stage (scary to a 4-year old anyway). Also, is anybody at these concerts on drugs and if so, do you really want your 4-year old kid to be surrounded by drugged-up hard-core punk rock fans?
What'd you just eat for dinner?
 
Mr Steve wrote:
[snip]
Mr Steve said:
I've seen very young children brought to loud rock concerts and the
parents have them near the big amplifiers. That's parental
negligence/abuse, and I'm glad to hear you'd use ear plugs.
Click to expand...
I'm with you there.
Mr Steve said:
But
since you say that hard core punk rock concerts are fine for little
kids, I guess you must be going to some pretty tame concerts. Or
the punks aren't what they used to be. Even sweet-heart
pre-debutantes may dress up in leather/chains/spiky
clothing/accessories.
Click to expand...
Could be. I don't even see too many spikes in the punk rock concerts I'm thinking of. But they're definitely loud and obnoxious. :-)
Mr Steve said:
One question: How do you explain to a 4-year old why somebody has
metal objects stuck through their lips, tongue, and eyebrows?
Click to expand...
Easy. "Because they think it's pretty." :-)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying kids ought to be dragged to punk rock concerts.

Petteri
--
[ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
[ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Mr Steve wrote:
[snip]
Mr Steve said:
I was thinking about the noise levels. Also, some groups do scary
things on stage (scary to a 4-year old anyway).
Click to expand...
That's quite true. There are some concerts where I definitely would not take a 4-year-old. Dimmu Borgir for example. Hell, they scare the willies out of me , and I'm 35. :-)
Mr Steve said:
Also, is anybody at
these concerts on drugs and if so, do you really want your 4-year
old kid to be surrounded by drugged-up hard-core punk rock fans?
Click to expand...
No, I wouldn't take the kid to a concert where people are on drugs or even drunk. But there the issue wouldn't be the punk rock -- it'd be the dope and the booze. Straightedge punk rock exists too, you know.
Mr Steve said:
What'd you just eat for dinner?
Click to expand...
Tortellini with a fresh basil sauce. :-)

Petteri
--
[ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
[ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Petteri Sulonen said:
Mr Steve wrote:

[snip]

I don't even see too many spikes in the punk rock
concerts I'm thinking of. But they're definitely loud and
obnoxious. :-)
Click to expand...
But what about the drugged and the drunk spectators?
Petteri Sulonen said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
One question: How do you explain to a 4-year old why somebody has
metal objects stuck through their lips, tongue, and eyebrows?
Click to expand...
Easy. "Because they think it's pretty." :-)
Click to expand...
Cute response, but that might encourage the kid to want the same thing and they might try to do it to themselves. Oh, and is a metal ring through a tongue really pretty?
 
may be in a little bit too direct and "shock-oriented" form but still - much more interesting than "blue heron in difficult light".

90 replies in 2 days - and the heated emotions remind me discussion of Jill Greenberg photographs recently...

There exists photography which I like more than both of the cases - but to scream "absolutely wrong, sick and unforgivable" - it's really childish... Sorry - wrong word probably - children are much smarter.
--
Sergey
http://www.pbase.com/sergeyushakov/
http://www.photo.net/photos/SergeyUshakov
 
Petteri Sulonen said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
Also, is anybody at
these concerts on drugs and if so, do you really want your 4-year
old kid to be surrounded by drugged-up hard-core punk rock fans?
Click to expand...
No, I wouldn't take the kid to a concert where people are on drugs
or even drunk.
Click to expand...
Good for you.
Petteri Sulonen said:
Straightedge punk rock exists too,
you know.
Click to expand...
No, I didn't know, except I imagine punk rock concerts where everything was kept legal, and the music was the thing. Such that the pre-debutantes can go to without worrying mom and dad.
Petteri Sulonen said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
What'd you just eat for dinner?
Click to expand...
Tortellini with a fresh basil sauce. :-)
Click to expand...
With an antipasto and wine?
And the main dish was?
 
...You accidentally became a "casualty" in the middle of a cross-fire that did not have any basis for existence.

Therefore, my comment citing yours was born in a fictitious comment. Please, forget about it.

Kind regards,

PIX
 
Thanks, they were one of the 10 bands I shot that day. And the intent was to shoot all the musicians... so thanks for the compliment.
Mr Steve said:
Steve Mitchell said:
It's not fake (see earlier post). May be tame to you. Not ashamed
to say it shook me up a bit being a few feet away. I'm not
de-sensitized enough to think this was tame.
Click to expand...
Your photos may be fine photographs of the musicians, but are a
failure if you wanted to convey the shocking scene you witnessed
from close-up. My attitude about the singer's action changed when I
read your description of what he did to shed the blood. Just
looking at the photos don't bring much shock or disgust.
I guess you were in too much shock to focus your creativity on
capturing truly shocking photos.

Mr. Steve
Click to expand...
--
Steve Mitchell
http://www.dphoto.us
http://www.musicpix.net
 
Mr Steve said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
Mr Steve wrote:

[snip]

I don't even see too many spikes in the punk rock
concerts I'm thinking of. But they're definitely loud and
obnoxious. :-)
Click to expand...
But what about the drugged and the drunk spectators?
Click to expand...
As I said, I wouldn't take a kid somewhere people are drunk or stoned.
Mr Steve said:
Mr Steve said:
Mr Steve said:
One question: How do you explain to a 4-year old why somebody has
metal objects stuck through their lips, tongue, and eyebrows?
Click to expand...
Easy. "Because they think it's pretty." :-)
Click to expand...
Cute response, but that might encourage the kid to want the same
thing and they might try to do it to themselves. Oh, and is a metal
ring through a tongue really pretty?
Click to expand...
Come on, Steve -- when's the last time you saw a four-year-old with a piercing?

What's it got to do with it anyway? You don't need to go to concert to see people with piercings.

Petteri
--
[ http://www.prime-junta.net/ ]
[ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
OK, I won't trouble my brain for this thread any longer. I've forgotten it already.
 
Petteri Sulonen said:
Mr Steve said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
Mr Steve wrote:

[snip]
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Petteri Sulonen said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
Cute response, but that might encourage the kid to want the same
thing and they might try to do it to themselves. Oh, and is a metal
ring through a tongue really pretty?
Click to expand...
Come on, Steve -- when's the last time you saw a four-year-old with
a piercing?
Click to expand...
Pierced ears are common among little girls in many countries.
But I guess we're not talking about that, are we.
I can imagine a 4-year old with a scissors in an experimental mood.

(Don't bother to ask what's a 4-year old doing with a scissors and no adult supervision around. :-))
Petteri Sulonen said:
What's it got to do with it anyway? You don't need to go to concert
to see people with piercings.
Click to expand...
I know that. But this was about explaining to the kid why, and implanting a positive attitude about it. Ho, never mind.
 
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