Why FF?

There is no physics behind your BS, just pure unfounded
speculations that 5D photodiode size is larger than 30ds one. I'm
not aware Canon ever announced it. Prove me wrong, if you can, and
I will be gladly stand corrected.
The photodiode size is irrelevant. What matters is the capture area of each microlens. The assumption, a perfectly reasonable one and one supported by experiment, is that the fill-ratio is approximately the same from pixel size to pixel size. There is no reason it shouldn't be. In fact, given the same manufacturing technology, there's reason to expect that the fill ratio would go up slightly with larger pixels.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Total light is what matters
BS. Total light per pixel of the same total area is what matter.
From this and your other posts, I see where you're going. You're going to say that a bigger sensor gets more total signal, but also gets more total noise, so it all cancels out. However, there's one critical element to realize here: noise is random, whereas signal is coherent. The more signal you have, the more redundancy that can be "spent" fighting (canceling) the noise. Think about, for example, noise reduction by image averaging. By your theory, when you add more images, you add both signal and noise, so there should be no improvement. But the signal adds up, whereas the noise cancels itself out. Total light matters.

Victor
 
There is no physics behind your BS, just pure unfounded
speculations that 5D photodiode size is larger than 30ds one. I'm
not aware Canon ever announced it. Prove me wrong, if you can, and
I will be gladly stand corrected.
The photodiode size is irrelevant. What matters is the capture
area of each microlens. The assumption, a perfectly reasonable one
and one supported by experiment, is that the fill-ratio is
approximately the same from pixel size to pixel size. There is no
reason it shouldn't be. In fact, given the same manufacturing
technology, there's reason to expect that the fill ratio would go
up slightly with larger pixels.
Even if these assumptions are correct (until proven otherwise these are just assumptions), there is NO evidence that there is a 1-1 correlation between microlens area and sensor sensitivity/noise performance. In other words, how can you be sure that doubling the microlens area results in a two-fold increase in sensitivity? Any scientific document to prove that?

So, since there is no scientific evidence that FF cameras are 2.56x more capable of gathering light, it cannot be said that an f/2.8 lens on 1.6x crop is equivalent to f/4.5 lens on FF camera.
 
So, since there is no scientific evidence that FF cameras are 2.56x
more capable of gathering light, it cannot be said that an f/2.8
lens on 1.6x crop is equivalent to f/4.5 lens on FF camera.
I'd call this evidence. About the same detail and noise, 1 1/3 stops apart.



--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
...have lower noise than current FF.
Perhaps.
That day, FF sensor images will be yet cleaner.
No doubts about that. But I'm already completely satisfied with the
noise level of 30D sensor, so I could not care less. My point is -
cropped sensor will stay on advanced DSLRs.
I'm never satisfied...when it comes to image degradation...the better they can make it look,...I'm all for it.. :-)

JP
--
http://www.onemodelplace.com/johnpaul
Myspace = jpphotographer

 
If you think you might like a FF camera rent or borrow a 5D for a
weekend. When I tried a 5D my 20D was gone the next week. Why?

Much larger, brighter viewfinder.
Better IQ, especially at lower light levels
My lenses worked better. The seem to give sharper clearer
pictures, especially at low light.
Better AF than the 20 D.
Better flash pictures. Less FEC was required.

jerry

--
jerryk.smugmug.com
I can totally relate!

I thought I would be happy owning a 5D, and two 20D bodies,... but once I bought my 5D,...the 20D bodies, which were used for event, and action photography, suddenly had "For Sale" written all over them, and I upgraded to the two 1DMkII bodies, which are much better than 1.6! (& overall, much better cameras)....but my main body had since been the 5D for a good 85% of my work.. :-)

As they say,....."It's a full frame thang that you won't understand until you try it! " :-)

JP

--
http://www.onemodelplace.com/johnpaul
Myspace = jpphotographer

 
Even if these assumptions are correct (until proven otherwise these
are just assumptions), there is NO evidence that there is a 1-1
correlation between microlens area and sensor sensitivity/noise
performance. In other words, how can you be sure that doubling the
microlens area results in a two-fold increase in sensitivity?
There is no certainty.. Except that in the limit that the sensor is 'good', or that in both cases the sensor performs in the same regime of operation, the microlens that receives twice as many photons gains one extra "bit" of information over the smaller microlens. This is a purely physical constraint. Quantum mechanics cannot be overcome with any amount of engineering, alas.
Any
scientific document to prove that?
I think LJ's experiments were reasonably rigorously conducted, yes.
So, since there is no scientific evidence that FF cameras are 2.56x
more capable of gathering light, it cannot be said that an f/2.8
lens on 1.6x crop is equivalent to f/4.5 lens on FF camera.
Well, how much could the difference really be (from 2.56x)? We're talking of a linear scaling of about 1.6, so presumably Canon's manufacturing processes aren't that drastically different. They're also both CMOS. So it's a number somewhere between 1x and maybe 3x. Care to make a guess?

At the end of the day, the effective f-stop is definitely considerably higher, even if not by exactly the idealised value of 2.56...
 
So, since there is no scientific evidence that FF cameras are 2.56x
more capable of gathering light, it cannot be said that an f/2.8
lens on 1.6x crop is equivalent to f/4.5 lens on FF camera.
I'd call this evidence. About the same detail and noise, 1 1/3
stops apart.
I’ve never argued that the 5D is a better camera than the 20D and that its ISO 1000 performance is equivalent to ISO 400 on the 20D. This has nothing to do with sensor size, though. It just happens that the 5D has a better sensor that the 20D. What if one day Canon release a 1.6x camera that takes the same quality shots at ISO 256000 as the 5D at ISO 400? How would sensor size matter than?
Since you have both cameras, why don't you do the following test:

Shoot the same scene with both the 20D and the 5D. Use equivalent focal lengths - for example, 85mm on the 20D and 135mm on the 5D. Set the ISO to 100 on both cameras and set the aperture to F2.8 on the 20D and to F4 on the 5D. Then tell us the exposure times of both shots. If they are the same, I would agree that the 5D hah a 1+ stop advantage over the 20D. If not, let’s just say that the 5D has a better sensor that the 20D but this has nothing to do with its size.
 
I don't have much practice with stitching, but I think since a picture taken with a longer focal length is basically just a crop preserving resolution, that the areas that you would overlap with a wider view won't have to be overlapped with a longer view, hence requiring about the same number of shots to cover the same view, right? I think I said before it would be less shots with a long lens, I got a little confused there.
Wide angles stitch just fine. Distortion of the lens should be
removed even for teles. I have stitched great things with 35mm,
24mm and 16mm focal lengths. The end result distortion depends
strictly on the final FOV and not the lens used.

Steven

--
---
2006 Southern Arizona Monsoon Wildflowers
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_summer_2006_ii

Summer 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/gallery/images_summer_2006

 
I'd call this evidence. About the same detail and noise, 1 1/3
stops apart.
I’ve never argued that the 5D is a better camera than the 20D and
that its ISO 1000 performance is equivalent to ISO 400 on the 20D.
This has nothing to do with sensor size, though. It just happens
that the 5D has a better sensor that the 20D.
The thesis here, supported by experiment, is that the reason the 5D has about 2.5x 'better' sensitivity w.r.t. ISO is not at all mysterious: it is the ratio of the total light collected by the respective sensors. (for const FOV and f-stop, as dictated in this case)
What if one day Canon
release a 1.6x camera that takes the same quality shots at ISO
256000 as the 5D at ISO 400?
You cannot increase s/n or ISO or whatever you want to call it indefinitely. Eventually you'll end up counting photons, like telescopes do...

But more importantly, the comparison between the 5D and the 20D is not at all unreasonable, seeing as they use sensors from about the same generation of Canon R&D.
How would sensor size matter than?
Actually, you are right: it is the total light collected for a given FOV that matters. It just so happens that if you keep the FOV and the f-stop constant, then the larger sensor must, by definition, collect more light. QED.

In fact, it collects 2.56x more light.
Since you have both cameras, why don't you do the following test:
Shoot the same scene with both the 20D and the 5D. Use equivalent
focal lengths - for example, 85mm on the 20D and 135mm on the 5D.
Set the ISO to 100 on both cameras and set the aperture to F2.8 on
the 20D and to F4 on the 5D. Then tell us the exposure times of
both shots. If they are the same, I would agree that the 5D hah a
1+ stop advantage over the 20D. If not, let’s just say that the 5D
has a better sensor that the 20D but this has nothing to do with
its size.
No.

Do the same experiment with ISO set to 260 and f4.5 in the 5D. Then the exposures will be equivalent. (I think. It's late. ;) ) Futhermore, the images should contain about the same amount of information.

This is the experiment that LJ actually performed. You can be the judge of whether the images contain the same amount of info... (This depends on post-processing, of course, so it's a tricky question.)
 
Do the same experiment with ISO set to 260 and f4.5 in the 5D.
Then the exposures will be equivalent. (I think. It's late. ;) )
Futhermore, the images should contain about the same amount of
information.
Just wait for the results. We'll then see the merits of this annoyng bigger-sensor-collects-more-light conspiracy theory.

Btw, what happens if the exposure times turn out to be different - like close to 2x, as would be expected for f2/8 vs f4. Do we all get an apology for all the BS?
 
Do the same experiment with ISO set to 260 and f4.5 in the 5D.
Then the exposures will be equivalent. (I think. It's late. ;) )
Futhermore, the images should contain about the same amount of
information.
Just wait for the results. We'll then see the merits of this
annoyng bigger-sensor-collects-more-light conspiracy theory.
Hehehe... ;)

Have you had a look at ljfinger's other post, where he shows an experiment he's already done?
Btw, what happens if the exposure times turn out to be different -
like close to 2x, as would be expected for f2/8 vs f4. Do we all
get an apology for all the BS?
Huh? None of the 'conspirators' have ever mentioned exposure.

I would also prefer if you desisted from using the expression "BS", and if you used less emotive language when discussing physics.

And if you do the experiment as I outline above, you will, within Canon's tolerances for ISO accuracy, get the same exposure.

Just check ljfinger's post, for heaven's sake...
 
You are looking at the impact of noise on a single pixel. That is not what is important. What is important is the impact of noise on the ENTIRE image. In that case, the per pixel noise of a 8MP 1.6X sensor would be very similar to a 22MP FF sensor (using same level of tech). The kicker is with 14 million MORE pixels, the images overall SNR is much lower (you might want to read up on binning).

Steven

--
---
2006 Southern Arizona Monsoon Wildflowers
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_summer_2006_ii

Summer 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/gallery/images_summer_2006

 
"Those who idealise the past tend not to understand it; killing it in the process". Robert Lane Fox: The classical world, An epic Histroy of Greece and Rome

The average person is afraid of change, this is a fact of life which strongly applies here.

Suppose hypothetically If film SLRs were equivalent to 1.6x crop factor and for some reason most Current digital SLRs were FF. 'Average' People would have been crying for 1.6x cameras.
PLEASE CANON, dont Listen to these unwise voices
--
Hatem Tawfik, MD
Cairo Egypt
 
That's certainly true right now, but are there any physical
limitations that would prevent smaller sensors from improving to
the extent that the additional size and weight of bodies and lenses
to support ff sensors returned little benefit?
Yes. There is something called the diffraction limit. When you are diffraction limited, stopping down your lens loses you resolution. If your xxD had the same pixel density as a G6, you would only be able to get good sharpness out of your lenses at f/4 or better. Larger sensors also have the ability to collect more photons per unit time. This increases sensitivity.

See the following page for far better information than I can present on the topic:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

Another great article discussing a lot of the tradeoffs here is:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

-Mike
http://demosaic.blogspot.com
 
"Those who do not study the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana

What the photographers of the past learned was that you haul around the biggest bit of film that is practical. Even today 8x10" and 4x5" (full plate and quarter plate large format) are used by pro photographers to produce stunning prints. The 35mm format evolved as a compromise between camera size and quality. Since APS-C cameras are not significantly smaller than 35mm why compromise on quality?
"Those who idealise the past tend not to understand it; killing it
in the process". Robert Lane Fox: The classical world, An epic
Histroy of Greece and Rome

The average person is afraid of change, this is a fact of life
which strongly applies here.
Suppose hypothetically If film SLRs were equivalent to 1.6x crop
factor and for some reason most Current digital SLRs were FF.
'Average' People would have been crying for 1.6x cameras.
PLEASE CANON, dont Listen to these unwise voices
--
Hatem Tawfik, MD
Cairo Egypt
 
It's interesting that my pointing out a couple of disadvantages of crop bodies (which I believe your original post asked about), has convinced you EVEN MORE that you don't think you can see any advantage to FF. Sorry for taking up the bandwidth....
 
Forget film. As far as FF or 1.6, I'm more interested in your lens lineup, and experience in shooting weddings.
This is news to me! What format do you want me to use when I shoot
your wedding? 1.6X crop, FF (1x) or 2 1/4 film?

;) Fran
 

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