Anyone surprised the M8 isn't a 4/3's camera?

I find my Olympus 11-22 lens quite handy, in fact. Offset microlens array (at least, one with an invariable offset) is useless for a versatile SLR system like EF or FourThirds. It is only the Leica M's hugely compromised design parameters that allow such a thing to be used. Using a rangefinder with anythin longer than a normal is a real chore.

--
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The new 21mm f3.2 Limited should fit the bill for the wide. No tiny
super-wide from Pentax (yet?).

Greg
The wide zooms and FA 14 pretty much fit that focal length but are not quite tiny. At the moment, I am using a Zenitar 16 for the extreme wide side and like it a lot. The DA21 looks like a keeper. I like the small size and the fact that it can also work as a closeup lens.

The DA 40 looks good but there are plenty of FA50/1.4 and 50/1.7 lenses out there fairly cheap. They are not that much bigger either.

I am astounded at the amount of mythology out there about what will work for digital and not. I shoot mostly film lenses and one of my worst lenses is made for digital. :-)
 
The new zooms are small, the optics in the 35mm are small, the
11-22 is about the same size as Nikon 12-24. The 7-14 is… well
huge, but it seems to work.
It actually works wonderfully well. The simple truth is that Nikon has the same challenges as Olympus with their DX format, though to a smaller extent, and they're solving them in the same way, albeit with their commitment to the F-mount. Olympus made the best move they could with FourThirds, and it's put them in 3rd or 4th place in the SLR market - much better than they have done since the mid '80s.
Wide angle is the hardest problem to solve with the smaller format,
but Olympus has a good, if large and expensive, solution. I
wouldn’t be shocked to see them quietly relax the telecentric
requirement and have smaller wides in the future.
This is already happening with their cheaper 'kit' lenses. FourThirds already has the ability to apply digital vignetting correction, I wouldn't be surprised to find these new, compact lenses triggering that function by default.
Is the telecentric design of the wide angles the reason they work
with the
teleconverter? If so, it is a handy side effect – I’ve use it to
fill the gap between the 11-22 and 50mm when I wanted to travel
light but still have
the wide angle lens.
Does that really work well? It had never occured to me to try. I usually carry the 11-22 and the 50 macro, is the EC-14 much lighter than the 50?

--
mumbo jumbo
 
21mm on a DX sensor is BARELY wide. The classic wides on 35mm film were the 24mm and the 28mm, usually at f/2.8.

--
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I expected APS or 4/3's. Instead, it appears to be a NEW format
produced by Kodak especially for Leica. In effect, Leica said
niether 4/3s or APS is good enough!
Actually, it's an old format, developed by Kodak, but not especially for Leica. Leica has been using it for years, in their Modul-R digital back, so anything other than that format would be something new for Leica.

Now, elsewhere in this thread, you added:
My statement saying I expected the M8 to be built around either APS
or 4/3s is built around two things. One, I think either are good
enough for a camera of similar quality. I was unaware that Leica
felt that either size format would compromise the output quality of
existing legacy lenses.
personally, I don't care about existing
legacy lenses, so I guess I don't care about that issue all that
much.
But Leica isn't catering to you, they're catering to people who already own Leica film systems. But that's neither here nor there...
I'd still like to see what kind of DRF camera could be built
around these formats.
I don't know how familiar you are with either lens design, or rangefinders. I'd assume not very familiar with either, from your comments.

So, to fill you in...

A rangefinder doesn't view through the shooting lens, it views and focuses through a viewfinder and rangefinder system that has two windows on the front of the camera, near the top. In order for this to happen, the lenses must be relatively small, otherwise, you can see the taking lens in the viewfinder. I assume you've either seen a Leica rangefinder in use, or at least seen pictures. Did you notice the weird cutouts on the back of lens hoods? That's so the viewfinder can see through part of the hood from the back, reducing the amount that the lens hood intrudes into the viewfinder image.

Rangefinder wide angle and normal lenses are symmetrical (or nearly so). Aside from leading to very sharp, low distortion optics, the symmetry makes them as short and narrow as possible. Reducing length and diameter keeps them out of the viewfinder's field of view. The wider the lens's field of view, the shorter it needs to be to keep out of view.

Four thirds (tm) lenses are not symmetrical. In fact, to achieve Oly's ideas of telecentricity, they're less symmetrical than any other SLR lenses in production. This makes them very large for their field of view. A Leica 21mm f2.8 Elmirat is 43mm long, and 57mm in diameter. The Oly 11-22mm f2.8-3.5, in comparison, is 93mm long and 75mm in diameter. You wouldn't be able to see around that lens in the viewfinder of a rangefinder, unless you made a very big rangefinder, 30mm wider and taller than an M. And it's not just a zooms vs. primes issue, an Oly 35mm f3.5 has a greater diameter and length than a Leica 30mm f1.4, despite the Leica being nearly three stops faster.

Next issue is that rangefinder lenses must couple the lens's focusing mechanism to the camera body's rangefinder mechanism. In existing rangefinders, this is done mechanically: you focus the lens, and a cam on the back of the lens moves the camera's rangefinder mechanism. For four-thirds, it would have to be done electronically. I don't know if the Olympus rangefinders transmit focus distance information back to the camera accurately enough to use for a rangefinder. I do know the Sigma four thirds lenses do not.

And the last issue is intended use. Rangefinder users are street shooters and event shooters. Cartier Bressan and "The Decisive Moment", all that sort of jazz. The four thirds patents advise against lenses faster than f2.0. The Leica line contains five different lenses faster than f2.0, including a 50mm f1.0. Voigtlander makes 3 more. People shoot the dang things wide open, indoors in dim light. The classic Leica shooter uses pretty high speed films. That's one reason Leica opted for a sensor twice the size of four thirds, an extra full stop of low light shooting ability.

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Personally I think the FF sensor that went in the slr/n would have been a better choice.
Leica has given several reasons for using the modest 1.33x crop of an 18x27mm sensor.
  • For the M8, range-finder wide angle lenses send light to the corners of the 35mm frame at a highly off-perpendicular angle (far more so that SLR wide angle lenses). Even with the clever Kodak off-set micro-lenses, these would still cause a significant "vignetting" problem.
  • For the R-modul digital back, the sensor, including some stuff at the sides of the active area, needs to fit through the 24x36mm film gate, so the active area needs to be somewhat smaller. That is probably the same reason why medium format backs have leveled out at a maximum of 37x49mm (and 36x48 from Dalsa), a slight crop from the 42.5x56mm of 645 film format. In each case the smallest difference in dimensions from the film format is about 6mm, so maybe sensors need about an extra 3mm along each side.
But it is interesting that the two Leica products use the same dimensions in different sensors, with different pixel characteristics as well as different micro-lenses, and so apparently quite different fabrications. Surely the corner vignetting size limit is not exactly the same as the film gate size limit.

(Leica's other new DSLR products are for an even smaller format, 4/3: the 14-50/2.8-3.5 OIS lens, and the slightly modified Panasonic body to bundle with it.)

My guess is that there is a significant cost jump in going above 18x27, due to 18x27 being about the largest size that can be made with the standard method of a single exposure on IC fabrication steppers or steper-scanners. Canon has said that its 1DMkII sensor (also about 18x27) can be made in a single exposure, while its 24x36mm sensors require a more complicated and expensive three exposure fabrication, with this as a major factor in the huge price difference between 1DMkII and 1DsMkII.
 
The 4/3 systems best feature is the cross platform lens mount, and
that wont work on a M_ rangefinder without an adapter.
But Leica already has a "cross platform lens mount", with wider acceptance than four thirds (tm).

Leica, Zeiss, and Voigtlander, all producing lenses and bodies.
Besides the red dot, Leica is all about those fantastic lenses anyway.

Also what if you want to shoot at 28mm. that means you would have
to buy a 14mm Leica lens for 4/3. That would cost about 5G.
Optomist!
I am surprised they put a crop sensor in the camera at all.
I'm not.
Personally I think the FF sensor that went in the slr/n would have
been a better choice.
The IBIS sensor that was in SLR/n was made by Fill Factory. It used a unique "shallow well" CMOS design that could be produced on a "stock" CMOS fab along side memory chips and microprocessors (Canon or Sony style CMOS uses a deeper process that requires a specialized fab). One of the major disadvantages of the IBIS is an angular sensitivity problem, even though it has no microlenses. This lead to what Kodak users called "the Italian flag" effect, color shifts across the image. That was with lenses that have a worst case angle of incidence of 22.6 degrees to the sensor (52mm exit pupil location, 43.3mm sensor diagonal). Kodak tried a software fix called "lens optimization", but it couldn't completely cure the problem. You should know, you shot one longer than I did. Mine drove me up the wall within two weeks.

Rangefinder lenses are symmetrical (except some extreme wide angles). So, a 24mm has an exit pupil about 24mm from the sensor, and an angle of incidence of 42 degrees. That would produce such a strong Italian flag that lens optimization software wouldn't stand a chance.

And rangefinder shooters love low light. They need a good high ISO sensor. Don't know if the new Kodak sensor is the one, but I'm pretty sure the IBIS wasn't.

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Personally I think the FF sensor that went in the slr/n would have been a better choice.
Leica has given several reasons for using the modest 1.33x crop of
an 18x27mm sensor.
  • For the M8, range-finder wide angle lenses send light to the
corners of the 35mm frame at a highly off-perpendicular angle (far
more so that SLR wide angle lenses). Even with the clever Kodak
off-set micro-lenses,
That's "clever Wisniewski microlenses". ;)
these would still cause a significant
"vignetting" problem.
  • For the R-modul digital back, the sensor, including some stuff at
the sides of the active area, needs to fit through the 24x36mm film
gate, so the active area needs to be somewhat smaller. That is
probably the same reason why medium format backs have leveled out
at a maximum of 37x49mm (and 36x48 from Dalsa), a slight crop from
the 42.5x56mm of 645 film format.
Medium format backs are a bit different, they can go full frame, or even past full frame. I've used a scanning back on a 6x7, quite a pleasure.

I think the 36x48mm comes from two things: cost and tradition. Full frame 645 is 42x56mm. That's 1.36x the area of a 36x48. Since large sensors increase in cost exponentially, at greater than the square of area, you're looking at at least double the price of a 36x48mm sensor, and that's only if they can get the quantity up. I'm not sure the market is there.

As far as tradition, Kodak and DALSA did a "half and double" thing with their sensors. They had 24x36mm full frame sensors (DALSA even managed to get theirs into a production 35mm DSLR, the Contax Digital N). Double up the 24x36 and you get 36x48.
In each case the smallest
difference in dimensions from the film format is about 6mm, so
maybe sensors need about an extra 3mm along each side.

But it is interesting that the two Leica products use the same
dimensions in different sensors, with different pixel
characteristics as well as different micro-lenses, and so
apparently quite different fabrications. Surely the corner
vignetting size limit is not exactly the same as the film gate size
limit.
I would guess, because Leica is building new metal castings, that there is no "film gate limit" on the M8, just like there isn't on a Canon 1Ds II or 5D.

Idon't expect Kodak to keep making two small quantity sensors for Leica, so I'm expecting to see a running change to a Modul-R II or DMRs or something any day now. Depends on how many of the existing sensors are in the warehouse ;)
(Leica's other new DSLR products are for an even smaller format,
4/3: the 14-50/2.8-3.5 OIS lens, and the slightly modified
Panasonic body to bundle with it.)
If you call those Leica's products...
My guess is that there is a significant cost jump in going above
18x27, due to 18x27 being about the largest size that can be made
with the standard method of a single exposure on IC fabrication
steppers or steper-scanners. Canon has said that its 1DMkII sensor
(also about 18x27) can be made in a single exposure, while its
24x36mm sensors require a more complicated and expensive three
exposure fabrication, with this as a major factor in the huge price
difference between 1DMkII and 1DsMkII.
Yup. But I get conflicting reports on that. Canon had also said 5D was the first single exposure full frame sensor.

But you're quite probably right, because we're not talking Canon quantities here. Leica had trouble getting a few thousand units of Modul-R out the door at $5k each. And I'm not expecting M8 to fly past 10k units/year.

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From sample pictures, the digital modul R had great edge
performance, and Leica did state that the M would be 1.33x, so
there's no reason for surprise.
It surprised me. I wasn't expecting Kodak to fab a brand new sensor with such a small size increment over the old one. I honestly thought M8 would be 1.37x like Modul-R.
Rather than ask about the future of 4/3rds, which I believe to be
as sound as any camera system, so long as the system plays to its
strengths, I want to ask a question of our more informed posters.

While there exists a constant calll for ff 35mm cameras in Nikon,
Pentax, and Alpha (Sony/Minolta), might 1.33x represent the future,
rather than ff?
It might. I've referred to it as a close to ideal format before.
In a Canon document regarding sensor size and cost, it was stated
that FF would always be orders of magnitude more expensive than
APS-C, and that this differnce would not diminish in any forseeable
future owing to present and near future production methods. In the
same document, they stated that 1.3x was the limit of "affordable"
sensor production.

So, with that in mind, is it plausible that 1.33x could replace
1.5x given current lense roadmaps, or would DX and "digital only"
lense work with 1.33x
Some would. I measured the coverage circles of a few. Some worked to 1.37, some to 1.33, some to 1.30.

1.33x is enough to let you cut the pentaprism weight in half, drop the shutter weight by a factor of 1.77 and mirror moment by 2.35 (which does great things for speed and vibration).

It's a viewfinder that's half a stop brighter than 1.5x crop, or 27% bigger, or split the difference.

The rest of your reasoning was also sound.

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I find my Olympus 11-22 lens quite handy, in fact. Offset microlens
array (at least, one with an invariable offset) is useless for a
versatile SLR system like EF or FourThirds.
This is simply not true, and I've explained it more than once.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=20077504
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=20006094
It is only the Leica
M's hugely compromised design parameters that allow such a thing to
be used.
They work fine in the Leica DMR, too. Uses "film" lenses, has twice the sensor area of four thirds (tm) and excellent image quality from center to corner.

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And rangefinder shooters love low light. They need a good high ISO
sensor. Don't know if the new Kodak sensor is the one, but I'm
pretty sure the IBIS wasn't.
I saw a preview somewhere that had crops from a test shot at ISO 2500. They looked good enough that I wouldn't be afraid to go there for low light shooting. Combine that with a Summilux or a Noctilux and the rangefinder's lower vibration and you'll have a killer low light machine. It would be even more impressive if Leica released a B&W version with the higher native ISO that you'd get be removing the CFA.
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BJL wrote:
That's "clever Wisniewski microlenses". ;)
I stand corrected!
I think the 36x48mm comes from two things: cost and tradition.
A quite plausible alternative explanation: Kodak has been reported (by Michael Reichmann) to have said that increasing beyond 37x49 would cause substantial problems, like fitting far fewer sensors onto a wafer.
I would guess, because Leica is building new metal castings, that there is no "film gate limit" on the M8
That was my point: the two products have no common size restriction, so why is the size the same? You offer a good hypothesis of reusability in both of Leica's low volume lens backward compatibility products:
I don't expect Kodak to keep making two small quantity sensors for Leica, so I'm expecting to see a running change to a Modul-R II or DMRs or something any day now.
(Leica's other new DSLR products are for an even smaller format, 4/3: the 14-50/2.8-3.5 OIS lens, and the slightly modified Panasonic body to bundle with it.)
If you call those Leica's products...
Not the body, but Leica does seem to be involved in designing 4/3 format lenses: this one, and several that Panasonic (not Leica!) has said are coming in 2007. Designing lenses (and making a few high end ones themselves) might be a major part of Leica's survival strategy.
 
You think they could have afforded to use a full frame chip. Gees add another $500-1000 and put in a 13.5 mp full frame chip and be done with it. Personally I think the slr/n/c chip would have worked very well as people use Leica R lenses on the slr/c and love them.

I read the justifications, but I dont buy half that malarkey.

So the camera cost less with a cropped chip in it, but you have to buy a $4000 19mm lens or $3500 for a 21mm lens to shoot normal WA. Forget shooting SWA. Even if you lay out $7000 for the 15mm lens that still only buys you 20mm equiv.

One of the best lenses on the planet is the 35mm asph. 35mm FL is the best all around RF length but that equiv just went to 47mm.

If you want to shoot at around a true 35mm equiv you have to now use your previous WA lens 28mm and that will get you close.

It needs a full frame chip IMO but I guess a 1.33 crop is better than a 1.5 or 1.6.

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Also what if you want to shoot at 28mm. that means you would have
to buy a 14mm Leica lens for 4/3. That would cost about 5G.
Optomist!
True make that 15mm and 7G.
And rangefinder shooters love low light. They need a good high ISO
sensor. Don't know if the new Kodak sensor is the one, but I'm
pretty sure the IBIS wasn't.
I dont know, but I got some decent iso 400 and 800 shots. It also has a huge DR that you can recover highlight details from, but you cant use the kodak software and it should be raw only.

True the sensor would be too close to the lenses, but it looks like Leica has a ML solution for that.

Maybe Sigma will make a few M lenses now. Just joking.
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There are interesting arguments for a DSLR format of about 18x27mm, especially if it is true that there is big production cost jump for formats larger than this, due to this being about the largest chip that can be fabricated in a more or less standard and thus cost effective way.

So why did Sony/Nikon, Canon and Kodak/Olympus all choose smaller formats for their mainstream DSLR products, and tie themselves to those formats with their digital specific lens systems? Surely they all new the facts about sensor fabrication, especially Nikon and Canon, who are major makers of sensor fab. equipment.

The only explanation I can see is that the cost-benefit analysis for the DSLR market, including Nikon's high end DSLR ambitions, instead favor somewhat smaller formats, no bigger than 16x24mm. And favor those smaller formats not just in the short term but considerably into the future, as reflected by the lens format commitment (and the total failure of Nikon, Sony, Fuji etc. to upsize, about seven years after the arrival of the Nikon D1 and then the Fuji S1). Maybe DX and EF-S were chosen for being about the smallest format at which 35mm format lenses gave tolerable wide angle performance during the transition period before DX and EF-S lenses existed.
 
"Well, if Kodak and Leica applied my offset microlenses the way I recommended, it won't be a problem."

What extraordinary hubris.

--
mumbo jumbo
 
What extraordinary hubris.
I quite agree, your statement that "Offset microlens array (at least, one with an invariable offset) is useless for a versatile SLR system" is definitely extraordinary hubris.

After all, Leica used them on Modul-R, "a versatile SLR system". But then again, "It's really easy to spend your life on a web forum taking pot shots at a companies' products, but what does it achieve?"

But hey, if you want to believe that you know more about this than Leica, that's fine. Why, I bet you even thing you are "ALWAYS right, and knows more about optoelectronic systems that any of the engineers at Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, Sigma, Samsung, Leica, Kodak, Fujifilm, Mamiya, Casio, Ricoh, Carl Zeiss et al".

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Also what if you want to shoot at 28mm. that means you would have
to buy a 14mm Leica lens for 4/3. That would cost about 5G.
Optomist!
True make that 15mm and 7G.
;)
And rangefinder shooters love low light. They need a good high ISO
sensor. Don't know if the new Kodak sensor is the one, but I'm
pretty sure the IBIS wasn't.
I dont know, but I got some decent iso 400 and 800 shots. It also
has a huge DR that you can recover highlight details from, but you
cant use the kodak software and it should be raw only.

True the sensor would be too close to the lenses, but it looks like
Leica has a ML solution for that.

Maybe Sigma will make a few M lenses now. Just joking.
Don't joke about that one. Do you remember the rumor about two years ago that Sigma was out to buy Leica? Right before ACM road in...

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There are interesting arguments for a DSLR format of about 18x27mm,
especially if it is true that there is big production cost jump for
formats larger than this, due to this being about the largest chip
that can be fabricated in a more or less standard and thus cost
effective way.

So why did Sony/Nikon, Canon and Kodak/Olympus all choose smaller
formats for their mainstream DSLR products,
Because at the time, the cost difference between 16x24mm (Nikon 1.5x) or Canon 22.2x14.8mm (1.6x) sensors and an 18x27mm 1.33x was pretty substantial. Nikon "inherited" the 1.5x from Kodak. Those where the days when yields on sensors were so poor that the 26.5% area increase from Nikon 1.5x to 1.33x might have doubled sensor cost, not something Nikon wanted to do on the dawn of their D1 launch.

And I'd guess that Canon, when they launched their first 30D had a particular cost target in mind, and gave us the biggest sensor that fit the target price.
and tie themselves to
those formats with their digital specific lens systems?
I'm not sure that Nikon tied anything they've done to 1.5x. The DX lenses that I've measured cover larger circles. All of them make it to 1.37x. Some can make 1.33x.
Surely they
all new the facts about sensor fabrication, especially Nikon and
Canon, who are major makers of sensor fab. equipment.
Definitely.
The only explanation I can see is that the cost-benefit analysis
for the DSLR market, including Nikon's high end DSLR ambitions,
instead favor somewhat smaller formats, no bigger than 16x24mm. And
favor those smaller formats not just in the short term but
considerably into the future, as reflected by the lens format
commitment (and the total failure of Nikon, Sony, Fuji etc. to
upsize, about seven years after the arrival of the Nikon D1 and
then the Fuji S1).
Quite likely.
Maybe DX and EF-S were chosen for being about
the smallest format at which 35mm format lenses gave tolerable wide
angle performance during the transition period before DX and EF-S
lenses existed.
Although I still think Nikon left room to head up towards 1.33x.

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Maybe Sigma will make a few M lenses now. Just joking.
Don't joke about that one. Do you remember the rumor about two
years ago that Sigma was out to buy Leica? Right before ACM road
in...
Yes i remember that and an anonymous person mentioned it turned into a bunch of egomaniacs arguing until one or both of them bailed.

If Sigma would have bought Leica and left it as is it probably would have done okay, but how many excellent restaurants have you been to that were sold, changed and belly up.

Leica is 100% about excellence, so Sigma making lenses for a leica would probably be a wasted effort.
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