Anyone surprised the M8 isn't a 4/3's camera?

They'll say whatever it takes to sell a product :)
In effect, Leica said neither 4/3s or APS is good enough!
Leica said today that 4/3 both is and is not good enough, depending
on your purpose.

Leica suggests that 4/3 and APS-C (1.5x or 1.6x crops) are not good
enough to get good value out of existing Leica M rangefinder lenses
designed for 35mm format: the smaller crop factor 1.33 (3/4 size)
is better for that purpose.

But Leica also says that 4/3 is good enough for a new digital SLR
format with new lenses, by having introduced a 4/3 format Digilux 3
SLR to go with the Leica/Panasonic 4/3 format 14-50/2.8-3.5 OIS
lens.
Up till now, I've been somewhat sanguine about the future of 4/3s,
and yet Leica's introducing its first 4/3 body today changed your
mind?
--
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Definitely. Kodak gave Leica the offset microlens sensor I've been
advocating for years. It's the first fairly small camera with a
fairly large sensor (1.33x) to use fairly small lenses (Leica
rangefinder primes).
Out of curiosity is it possible to make a flexable sensor that
could change its shape with different lenses bayonetted on the
camera? that is to say a compound curved sensor that would flatten
out for telly and curl for wide so as to maintain the ange more
precicly for a wide range of focal lengths or perhapes even be
electronicly coupled to a zoom to do this change.
As has already been pointed out, it's not possible to do with current technology.

Even if it were, lenses focus light onto basically a flat plane. There are some minor deviations from the plane, caused by such things as spherical aberration, but these are very small effects, nowhere near in proportion to the exit pupil location. So, if you were to curve the sensor enough to match the exit pupil location and eliminate problems with off angle light, you would have curved it way too much to bring the image into focus from center to edge.
I am not sure it can be done but it would soleve the problems
around the edges? Just a thought I had
I was always rather partial to trying to alter the angles of the microlenses under computer control. There are DLP projectors that aim arrays of micromirrors, so it should e possible to aim arrays of microlenses.

--
The Pistons led the NBA, and lost in the playoffs.
The Red Wings led the NHL, and lost in the playoffs.

It's up to the Tigers now...
Leading the league, and going all the way!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Four-thirds is a screw-up on a grand scale. Olympus correctly
identified a problem: "existing film SLR wide angle lenses don't
work well with existing sensors, because of problems with the angle
at which light strikes the sensor".

Well, if sensors and lenses aren't compatible, there are two
obvious solutions: fix the lenses or fix the sensors.

So Oly decided to fix the lens. The big problem was that they not
only decided to fix it, they applied a policy of massive overkill.
I think the four thirds standard either has (a) one more goal which
is not published, and which requires telecentricity. For example
3-CCD cameras or whatever.
The 3-CCD camera doesn't necessarily require telecentricity. It does require a huge back focus (distance from sensor to rear element of the lens), about three times the sensor diagonal. For four thirds (tm), that's about 66mm. But four thirds only has a back focus of about half that, 38.68mm from the lens mount flange to the sensor, and the rear elements of the lens protrude about 8mm past the lens flange into the mirror box.

The only "goal which is not published" that I can see for the four thirds mount is to make it patentable for Oly. The patents on all other mounts have expired. Some, like the Nikon, Canon, Minolta, and Pentax AF mounts are recent, having expired in the last 5 years. Some, like the mechanical parts of the Nikon, Pentax, and Leica mounts expired decades ago. The only mount currently under patent protection is the "open" four thirds. And the only way that they could patent it was by having something new (otherwise, it's basically a copy of the Canon EOS mount).
Or (b) you are right and the telectricity is not necessary in that
amount. Then this is one thing that can be fixed: Simply weaken the
telecentricity specification of the standard slowly.
That's already being done. The Sigma 30mm f1.4 doesn't meet the Oly spec. The exit pupil is about 64mm, so the angle on a four thirds camera is about 9.6 degrees. That's a great angle, a lot better than the 15.5 degree angle of a 50mm f1.8 Nikkor on a D2X (which does perform very well center to corner). As Sigma puts more of their line into four thirds mount (and if Tamron and Tokina start doing four thirds lenses) there will be more and more lenses that don't meet Oly telecentricity.
The old lenses
will continue to work, so thats no problem for the users.
Yup. Just an annoyance, if the new lenses end up smaller, lighter, and probably cheaper, but work just as well.

--
The Pistons led the NBA, and lost in the playoffs.
The Red Wings led the NHL, and lost in the playoffs.

It's up to the Tigers now...
Leading the league, and going all the way!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Joe and I seem to agree on the desirability of the goal of low total size and weight of a camera body plus lenses covering some suitable FOV range, like 24mm to 105mm in 35mm format, meaning for 4/3 format from about 12 to 14mm at the wide end to 52-57mm at the narrow end.

The new kit of E-400 (380g), 14-42/3.5-5.6 (190g) and 40-150/4-5.6 (220g) seems aimed at this goal.

Any idea as to whether
a) these new lenses ignore the 7º(?) telecentricity requirement
b) they satisfy the telecentricity requirement and yet are small and light

c) the 7º figure was in fact never a requirement of FourThirds: all I have seen is comments about some degree of telecenticity as desirable or a target, not a rigid requirement.
 
From the company that has made the historic down-leap from medium and large films to 35mm, wouldn't you expect a similar move with digital sensors: go down in size for the best viable compromise.
They now have folks with $3k wide angle lenses who won't be happy if these are now not quite so wide. 1.37x is about s far as Leica can go.
Exactly: 18x27 is a good choice for backward compatibility with existing 35mm format lenses; optically better than 1.5x or 1.6x, if one can afford the more expensive sensor, which Leica customers probably can.

But what if one starts with all new lenses, as Leica did many years ago, Olympus is doing with 4/3, and every camera maker is doing with fixed lens digital cameras? without backward lens compatibility issues, the uniform pattern is to move to newer, distinctly smaller formats. In fact, 4/3 is about the largest format used so far in that situation, with only the Sony R1 slightly larger, and the rest of the market dominating fixed lens digicam formats all far smaller, and still shrinking.
APS seems to have hit that happy medium of small enough to be inexpensive but large enough for quality. 4/3 is simply smaller, for little perceivable advantage in price or size.
The new E system kit of E-400 (380g), 14-42/3.5-5.6 (190g) and 40-150/4-5.6 (220g) seems to do quit well for size and weight advantage, though of course compact digicams do far better for size, and hence sell vastly better than DSLR's of any format.

Of course there will always be a trade-off between usable shutter speed and lens weight, whether one increases speed (and weight) with lenses of lower minimum f-stops in the same format or with a larger format and longer focal lengths at the same minimum f-stop.
 
I expected APS or 4/3's.
What is so favorable about the 4/3 format?

It does not give lighter, smaller and cheaper lenses. It gives lesser quality than larger sensor formats due to smaller photosites and the resultant worsened dynamic range and a less favorable S/N ratio.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
 
I have no intention of getting into an argument over the merits of 4/3s. You either like it or you don't. I do happen to like it. I mean no offense to you, but your opinion on this issue is irrelevant to me. So you'll have to take that fight somewhere else. I simply won't defend my choice to anyone. I think my photos are enough defense anyway.

My statement saying I expected the M8 to be built around either APS or 4/3s is built around two things. One, I think either are good enough for a camera of similar quality. I was unaware that Leica felt that either size format would compromise the output quality of existing legacy lenses. personally, I don't care about existing legacy lenses, so I guess I don't care about that issue all that much. I'd still like to see what kind of DRF camera could be built around these formats.

Two, I believed that in order to save money, Leica would try to use existing technology as much as possible so long as it provided adequate quality. My first assumption and my lack of concern for legacy lenses made me believe that one of these sensor formats would be used.

Also, I assumed that a LOT of what Leica was saying about a DRF was misdirection (a reasonable assumption in today's world), so I naturally assumed that much of what I was hearing was bunk

--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'
 
Back in the film days indeed? Are you aware that Leica released the M7 35mm film camera at approx. the same time as the M8 digital?
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.
 
Back in the film days indeed? Are you aware that Leica released
the M7 35mm film camera at approx. the same time as the M8 digital?
Actually, they released the M7 in 2002, at a time when they had not yet announced the M8. Even as much as two years later, in 2004, Leica was publicaly stating that a digital M was not possible.

Now, are you aware that, according to the Leica Collector's Society 80% of current Leica film camera production will never have a single roll of film run through them? Even mounting a lens is considered an act that diminishes the collectability of the camera, because it scuffs the lens mount. It's like gun collectors, who won't even turn the tumbler of a new Colt, let alone load bullets.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
My statement saying I expected the M8 to be built around either APS
or 4/3s is built around two things. One, I think either are good
enough for a camera of similar quality. I was unaware that Leica
felt that either size format would compromise the output quality of
existing legacy lenses.
I'm not sure if it's a "compromising the output quality" as much as it is failing to take advantage of what the format offers. The big advantage of a rangefinder is in wide angle lenses. Since a crop factor reduces the width of wide angle lenses, any crop factor cuts into the whole point of using a rangefinder in the first place. Their widest lens is the new 16-18-21 Tri-Elmar, followed by their 21/2.8 M Elmarit. Those would barely be wide angle on a 4/3 sensor and would be only modestly wide on an APS-C sensor, so the whole point of the system would be compromised.
personally, I don't care about existing
legacy lenses, so I guess I don't care about that issue all that
much. I'd still like to see what kind of DRF camera could be built
around these formats.
Unfortunately, using legacy lenses is pretty much mandatory for any system, and more so for Leica than for most makers. Any camera system is more attractive if it has a complete lineup of lenses, and designing a complete lens lineup is an enormous expense. There's a reason that every interchangable lens digital camera system except for 4/3 is built to be compatible with a legacy lens lineup; it's too expensive to do it any other way. That's especially true of a fringe player like Leica that simply lacks the money to redesign its whole lens lineup even if it wanted to.

Users also like legacy lenses. Nobody likes the idea of starting over from scratch, so anyone who has a collection of legacy lenses is going to be interested in buying a camera that can use them. Again, that's something that's especially true of Leica users. They're unusually loyal to their brand- as I'm sure you've seen from posts here- and their lens collections are unusually expensive. They're used to buying multi-thousand dollar lenses, so the cost of the M8 isn't going to phase them nearly as much as the cost of buying a whole new set of Leica lenses.
Two, I believed that in order to save money, Leica would try to use
existing technology as much as possible so long as it provided
adequate quality. My first assumption and my lack of concern for
legacy lenses made me believe that one of these sensor formats
would be used.
Again, that logic only applies if sensor development were the most expensive part of the process. In Leica's case it was probably cheaper to develop the camera around a more expensive sensor that would largely preserve the company's investment in lens designs (and the photographers' investment in lenses) than to go with a cheaper off-the-shelf sensor that would require a whole new set of lenses.
Also, I assumed that a LOT of what Leica was saying about a DRF was
misdirection (a reasonable assumption in today's world), so I
naturally assumed that much of what I was hearing was bunk
I don't know about that. My impression is that most of the camera companies try to be vague so that they can't be held to a specific promise, but that when they do make a promise they tend to carry through with it. If they promise they'll make a camera that uses technology ABC, they may miss their release date- even badly- but they rarely come out with a camera that uses technology XYZ instead.
--

As with all creative work, the craft must be adequate for the demands of expression. I am disturbed when I find craft relegated to inferior consideration; I believe that the euphoric involvement with subject or self is not sufficient to justify the making and display of photographic images. --Ansel Adams
 
Thank you! While I really like my E-500, putting an E-500, or E-400 sensor in an M8 would have been... Wierd.

I think Leica did the best they could with current tech.
--
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http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com

Olympus E500
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Sony Video Cameras
Canon S9000
Epson 820

Apple PowerMac Dual 2GHz G5
 
Four-thirds is a screw-up on a grand scale. Olympus correctly
identified a problem: "existing film SLR wide angle lenses don't
work well with existing sensors, because of problems with the angle
at which light strikes the sensor".

Well, if sensors and lenses aren't compatible, there are two
obvious solutions: fix the lenses or fix the sensors.

So Oly decided to fix the lens.
So the lens company decided to fix the lenses. If all you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails.

Olympus doesn’t make their own sensors. It makes sense they wouldn’t want to limit their options by requiring technology specific to one sensor supplier.

May not be the optimal solution, but it doesn’t seem like a grand scale screw up. The only company with offset micro lenses in a body has also made a serious commitment to 4/3’s lenses and bodies. Leica knows all the issues with both approaches, I wonder if they think it’s a grand scale screw up?
The end result, four-thirds simply cannot deliver on the promise of
smaller lenses.
The new zooms are small, the optics in the 35mm are small, the 11-22 is about the same size as Nikon 12-24. The 7-14 is… well huge, but it seems to work.

Wide angle is the hardest problem to solve with the smaller format, but Olympus has a good, if large and expensive, solution. I wouldn’t be shocked to see them quietly relax the telecentric requirement and have smaller wides in the future.

Is the telecentric design of the wide angles the reason they work with the

teleconverter? If so, it is a handy side effect – I’ve use it to fill the gap between the 11-22 and 50mm when I wanted to travel light but still have
the wide angle lens.

--
Jeff Taylor
http://www.pbase.com/jltaylor
 
So the lens company decided to fix the lenses. If all you have is a
hammer, all problems look like nails.
Leica isn't a lens company?
Olympus doesn’t make their own sensors.
Neither does Leica.
The only company with offset micro lenses in a body
has also made a serious commitment to 4/3’s lenses and bodies.
About as much commitment as has been shown with other rebadged Panasonic, or in this case rebadged-panasonic-rebadged-olympus.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
(and I reinserted, because context matters)
So Oly decided to fix the lens.
So the lens company decided to fix the lenses. If all you have is a
hammer, all problems look like nails.
Leica isn't a lens company?
A lens company with a line of existing lenses designed for 35mm format.

They have a different problem to solve.
Patents and supplier relationships can trump the best technical solution.
Olympus doesn’t make their own sensors.
Neither does Leica.
The only company with offset micro lenses in a body
has also made a serious commitment to 4/3’s lenses and bodies.
About as much commitment as has been shown with other rebadged
Panasonic, or in this case rebadged-panasonic-rebadged-olympus.
I was referring to the lenses. But I don't think they would put
their name on a grand scale screwup.

Offset microlenses might be a more elegant solution, but I doubt Olympus
was unaware of it when they opted for the telecentric approach.

They seem (to me) to working around it ok.

The E-400+the two new zooms is about 20% lighter and takes
20% less volume then a Pentax *ist DL + 18-35 + 50-200. Almost
40% less then a D-50 with 18-200.

Olympus also has the smallest/lightest solution if you want weather
sealed equipment in the same range.

--
Jeff Taylor
http://www.pbase.com/jltaylor
 
The 4/3 systems best feature is the cross platform lens mount, and that wont work on a M_ rangefinder without an adapter.

Besides the red dot, Leica is all about those fantastic lenses anyway.

Also what if you want to shoot at 28mm. that means you would have to buy a 14mm Leica lens for 4/3. That would cost about 5G.

I am surprised they put a crop sensor in the camera at all.

Personally I think the FF sensor that went in the slr/n would have been a better choice.

--
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(and I reinserted, because context matters)
So Oly decided to fix the lens.
So the lens company decided to fix the lenses. If all you have is a
hammer, all problems look like nails.
Leica isn't a lens company?
A lens company with a line of existing lenses designed for 35mm
format.
Ditto with Oly. Ever heard of OM?
They have a different problem to solve.
Patents and supplier relationships can trump the best technical
solution.
What patents and supplier relationships would Leica be trampling on by redesigning their lenses for their mount?
The only company with offset micro lenses in a body
has also made a serious commitment to 4/3’s lenses and bodies.
About as much commitment as has been shown with other rebadged
Panasonic, or in this case rebadged-panasonic-rebadged-olympus.
I was referring to the lenses.
Plural? There is 1 lens.
But I don't think they would put
their name on a grand scale screwup.
M5. CL. Some would say the entire reflex line.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed
 
From sample pictures, the digital modul R had great edge performance, and Leica did state that the M would be 1.33x, so there's no reason for surprise.

Rather than ask about the future of 4/3rds, which I believe to be as sound as any camera system, so long as the system plays to its strengths, I want to ask a question of our more informed posters.

While there exists a constant calll for ff 35mm cameras in Nikon, Pentax, and Alpha (Sony/Minolta), might 1.33x represent the future, rather than ff?

In a Canon document regarding sensor size and cost, it was stated that FF would always be orders of magnitude more expensive than APS-C, and that this differnce would not diminish in any forseeable future owing to present and near future production methods. In the same document, they stated that 1.3x was the limit of "affordable" sensor production.

So, with that in mind, is it plausible that 1.33x could replace 1.5x given current lense roadmaps, or would DX and "digital only" lense work with 1.33x

I assumed a sensor area of 24x16 for APS_C sensors are a tad smaller, and the proportions vary ever so slightly on different sensors, but it seems that this is form built to. That gives an image circle of 28.8mm, roughly.

27x18mm gives an image circle of just less than 32.5mm.

Now I don't know if Sony and Pentax are maintaining rear element clearance distances to the same spec as their 35mm film cameras, but I know Nikon is. So how much extra, if any, image circle do the DX type lenses project -- it needs only 3.5-4mm to work...

And it's a fairly practical "crop factor" too -- assuming it would work (which we can't without data)

ie. a 17-55 DX goes from a 25.5-82.5 equivalent FOV to 22.5-73

most of the traditional (35mm) primes jump a step.

21 gives roughly 28 equivalent

35 gives roughly 46

85 gives 113.

FOV equivalents from either 35 or DX would be workable

but likely it's just not worth it...
 
It wouldn't have been an 'M' if it had needed new lenses, would it? FourThirds is an interchangeable lens SLR standard.

--
mumbo jumbo
 
(and I reinserted, because context matters)
So Oly decided to fix the lens.
So the lens company decided to fix the lenses. If all you have is a
hammer, all problems look like nails.
Leica isn't a lens company?
A lens company with a line of existing lenses designed for 35mm
format.
Ditto with Oly. Ever heard of OM?
They're both lens companies with lines outside 35mm full frame. One third of Leica Camera's business is what they call "sport optics", spotting scopes and binoculars. Oly is possibly the largest player in the endoscopy business (which suggests all sorts of corporate slogans).

That's neither here nor there. It's more a question of who they want to sell to. As a wild guess, I'd say Leica sees their target market as mostly owners of existing M bodies and lenses. Oly has more freedom.

But I believe Oly "over fixed" the problem, and did it as a publicity stunt. As I've mentioned elsewhere, more than once, the math is easy, and the experiments are easy, to show that you don't need the degree of telecentricity that Oly talked up. They believed that they needed a mew mythology, rather than just a new camera (albeit an excellent new camera) to take mind share from Nikon and Canon.
They have a different problem to solve.
Patents and supplier relationships can trump the best technical
solution.
What patents and supplier relationships would Leica be trampling on
by redesigning their lenses for their mount?
Interesting question. I didn't know we were talking about Leica on that one, but if we are, there's only one Leica branded four thirds lens, and as far as I can tell, it's neither Leica, Panasonic, or Oly IP.
The only company with offset micro lenses in a body
has also made a serious commitment to 4/3’s lenses and bodies.
About as much commitment as has been shown with other rebadged
Panasonic, or in this case rebadged-panasonic-rebadged-olympus.
I was referring to the lenses.
Plural? There is 1 lens.
I wouldn't call that particular lens a Leica. Variable aperture f2.8-3.5 lenses are a bit rare, what are the odds that Leica and Oly, independently, would come up with a 14-50mm f2.8-3.5 and a 14-54mm f2.8-3.5, respectively. And, as I've pointed out before in my comments on the 14-54mm f2.8-3.5 and the 50-200mm f2.8-3.5, the designs are unusual, without the tightness of comparable lenses. There is an unusual open space in the rear area of the optical path that practically screams "insert stabilizer here".

So, the Leica label is, as far as I can tell, just another branding exercise.
But I don't think they would put
their name on a grand scale screwup.
M5. CL. Some would say the entire reflex line.
Again, I thought we were talking Olympus here, so...

OM-AF: the OM-77 AF body, OM-88 "power focus" body and the eight OM-AF lenses.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 

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