Olympus' "New Concept D-SLR"

The noise or lack thereof is actually pretty good with the 20D. As for the 70-200 with 1.4x combo: it is on the 70mm end but on the longer end it is not much difference(I usually only use the longer end of the zoom for my bird/wildlife and even insect pictures). This is because the 50-200 is not a constant F2.8 and the 70-200 am talking about is a constant F2.8.

I would personally not want to use a camera with an FF sensor, since the weight would be enormous for my uses(bird/wildlife mainly).
but if you REALLY care about noise, 35mmFF is the kiddie.

The 70-200 with 1.4TC on a 20D is similar to the 50-200 on an Oly,
but surely the TC makes it a stop or more slower?
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get too bogged down int his example, but if you add the TC then the APS-C lens:

Weights 50% more (1.5KG verus 1KG - no small difference).

Is a stop slower through most of the range (f2.8-f3.5 v f4).

This is roughly what I would expect.

4/3rds brings a substantial weight saving over APS, and a massive one over 35mmFF.

Which is why I'll be sticking with it, if they produce a reasonable performance body, even if that body is a stop noisier than Canon.
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I do prefer Olympus, but just stating that my experience was that it wasn't all that much of a difference in weight. F3.5 verses F4 was also not much of a difference imo. Often the buildin metering would choose an F setting of F5.6 or higher anyways. I guess this is where most people find the advantage of the Canon working for them, as they can then increase the iso to above iso 800 for keeping the aperture more wide open if necessary. I usually don't like apertures that are too open and prefer more overall depth of sharpness in my pictures, especially with birds and macros. There is indeed an advantage to be had with the weight and size of lenses, but I haven't encountered it as yet with the equiptment I have had. The Nikons are indeed much heavier.(have the D200 and it weights a ton with the long zooms).
get too bogged down int his example, but if you add the TC then the
APS-C lens:

Weights 50% more (1.5KG verus 1KG - no small difference).

Is a stop slower through most of the range (f2.8-f3.5 v f4).

This is roughly what I would expect.

4/3rds brings a substantial weight saving over APS, and a massive
one over 35mmFF.

Which is why I'll be sticking with it, if they produce a reasonable
performance body, even if that body is a stop noisier than Canon.
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On the one side "four thirds compact", on the other side "new
concept DSLR".

Does that mean the "new concept DSLR" is not compact ?
Does that mean the "new concept DSLR" is not fourthirds ?
Maybe Oly is going to come out with a small fixed lens non-SLR camera using the same 4/3 sensor and firmware as the E330?
 
Amy,
Now you're on to something! No reason why they couldn't.
JW
 
Oh, there's all sorts of fun one can have with an open mind! If you think about the image circle that a 35mm lens illuminates, and then place a 4:3 ratio sensor within that circle I wonder where the sensor area would shake out? I would think it would encompass more square mm than a 35mm film shaped sensor. Now how fun would THAT be?!!

A new mount that is easily adaptable to existing Sigma and Tamron 35mm products (with both companies along for the launch) with a few Zuikos thrown in at launch as well? Hooah! Just like Canon only better - a two sensor line of DSLRs: Standard 4:3rds and "Mega 4:3rds". Seems like a marketing maven's delight to me, but what do I know.

Okay...sorry 'bout that - extreme waste of brain cell activity there...

Best,
Oly
 
Let's say the Nikonflex Digirama costs US$999 to the consumer at a
competitive retailer in the U.S. (like, say, B&H)....
Nikon USA pays Nikon Japan about US$500 for that camera. U.S.
distributor, or wholesale, margins runs about 30-40% under normal
circumstances. So "factory gates" price is about $500
Am i correctly that this $500 is still not the cost? I learnt that, as a rule of thumb, anything that costs X dollars to make will retail for about 3X dollars. If I apply this formula, the cost is $999 / 3 = $333 which gives Nikon Japan a 50% gross profit margin.
Another point: most regions of the world run higher distributor
margins than the U.S.
I can confirm that this is still the case in Australia. Nikon stuff in Australia is about 20% more expensive than US. (10% of that is GST/VAT.)
--
John
 
......... no smaller than that for the old (35mm film) OM mount. This means that Olympus could design 4/3 mount lenses capable of focussing on a FF-sized sensor. It also means that (as with the old OM lenses) such lenses could also be used on a 4/3 sensor camera. End of story. I have no doubt that Olympus WILL eventually produce a FF-sensor camera - they have to. In other words they will redefine exactly what "4/3" means, with emphasis being placed on the lens mount rather than sensor size.
 
Contax, who no longer exist... brought out an auto focus SLR using manual focus lenses. How by using a motorised film back and a vacuum pump to hold the film against a ceramic film pressure plate.

Cost £2000 when it came out...complete commercial failure.

FORGET the OM system for digital....you are dreaming!!

The 4/3 system still has major potential, the sensor size stays the same but KODAK, who make the sensors, need, ideally two sensors:-

8-10Mpixel with low noise to 1600asa+++

and a 12-18Mpixel with low noise to 800ASAn++

The money in the camera industry right now is in making and selling budget SLR's. The promarket is tiny in comparison and the margins are smaller (Economy of scale).

Forget Canon 1D killers from Olympus/Panasonic/Kodak... there is NO money for them there.

The money is in innovative £500-900 DSLR that are obsolete after 12 months.

Wake up boys
--
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Am i correctly that this $500 is still not the cost? I learnt that,
as a rule of thumb, anything that costs X dollars to make will
retail for about 3X dollars. If I apply this formula, the cost is
$999 / 3 = $333 which gives Nikon Japan a 50% gross profit margin.
Yes, the $500 price would include Nikon Japan's profit on the camera. The actual cost of manufacture would be substantially less.

But your math, or rather your accounting terminology, is a little off -- if the camera cost $333 to make, and they sell it for $500, their gross profit margin is 33.4%. You calculated "markup", a different figure that is not generally used by cost accountants.

Profit margin is the percentage of the total price that is profit -- in this example, $167 is the amount of profit and 167 is 33.4% of 500 (167 / 500).

Markup is the profit amount expressed as a percentage of the cost (not the selling price) -- in this example 167 is 50% of 333 (167 / 333). But again, cost accountants generally do not use the concept of markup, and all corporate financial reporting uses profit margin.

And, of course, gross profit margin does not include other costs (so-called indirect costs) that Nikon (and any other company, of course) incurs -- sales, marketing, and R&D chief among them but also logistics and operations.

According to Japanese securities analysts (who probably got the information from the companies themselves) Nikon is making about 25% operating profit on its DSLR business these days, and Canon is making about 35% operating profit on its DSLR business. (Operating profit theoretically takes indirect costs into account.) Those are very high operating profit margins for electronics manufacturing, and they are the gaudy numbers that are drawing so many other players into the DSLR business (Sony, Samsung, Panasonic et. al.) It's a kind of gold rush.

Unfortunately, I have not seen any DSLR operating profit margin figures for anyone besides Nikon and Canon, but those two companies control 80% or more of the worldwide DSLR market, and it's pretty clear that nobody else is making those kinds of margins in DSLRs. But several companies think they can carve out a piece of that profit pie -- Olympus, obviously, is one such company. And while I think it's clear that the easy money is already gone (Nikon, and especially Canon, already ate most of it), it seems reasonable to think that, if a company like Sony or Olympus does a highly competent job of addressing this market, there is still some decent money to be made in it.

Finally, going back to the original issue of costs: cost accounting in a manufacturing operation is something of a black art. It's very difficult to accurately pin down exactly what any particular product costs to make. If you want to spend a couple of months in that bewildering thicket, just Google the term "activity-based cost accounting".
 
So Olympus UK/spain/France would each be a franchisee of Oly Japan but would operate under the umberella of Oly Europe..

That would mean each country runs it's own operation: they have total control over what they buy, have total control of how they handle advertising, servicing and repairs, etc, but they'll always be connected to the main Olympus empire who will make sure each territory performs to a decentish standard..

Are they run like that? Just curious.
 
But if it's in front of the other sensor,
how are you going to get accurate auto and
manual focus?

Unless you are talking about an "EVIL" camera.
They will utilize the 6th gen. Fuji, and make it a 16mp sensor.
Then they will add a smaller F30-sized 6,5 mp sensor which can
swing in front of the 16mp one, giving you a 5x "crop factor"
instead of the usual 2x. [...]

Now, flame. :-)
Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden
 
Olympus was always kinda of a niche player in the SLR market, and the OM system would be similar. They also should continue with the 4/3 line(I like it). The OM system was a good system and had a loyal following. Of course they will never win by going head to head with the big players such as Nikon and/or Canon, but they might not have to. The 4/3 system is already better designed and thought out than either of those two big ones has, imo. I have had the 20D and was not impressed. I also have the D200 and D70s now, but guess what? The E330 is being almost exclusively used by me right now. :) In similar vein, a lot of enthusiasts would love to have an option of using something like an OM system. I believe that Contax had way more problems then just going with that concept, but could be wrong there. Leica is also considering going with a digital M system camera and already have done so with their SLR system(Module R). They are not selling like hotcakes, but this was, imo, never the intention. These are all niche players who cater to people who love that kind of choice. Personally, I would get such a digital OM system to go with my 4/3 system. :)
Contax, who no longer exist... brought out an auto focus SLR using
manual focus lenses. How by using a motorised film back and a
vacuum pump to hold the film against a ceramic film pressure plate.

Cost £2000 when it came out...complete commercial failure.

FORGET the OM system for digital....you are dreaming!!

The 4/3 system still has major potential, the sensor size stays the
same but KODAK, who make the sensors, need, ideally two sensors:-

8-10Mpixel with low noise to 1600asa+++

and a 12-18Mpixel with low noise to 800ASAn++

The money in the camera industry right now is in making and selling
budget SLR's. The promarket is tiny in comparison and the margins
are smaller (Economy of scale).

Forget Canon 1D killers from Olympus/Panasonic/Kodak... there is
NO money for them there.

The money is in innovative £500-900 DSLR that are obsolete after 12
months.

Wake up boys
--
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--
soulsurfer
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I think that might appeal to pros, but wonder if the average person would buy such a camera. It might just get too expensive. The lenses would also need to be bigger. As a bird/wildlife and macro photographer, I actually like the 4/3 system as it is.
My guess is that they will continue to support four thirds as a
light/compact lower priced segment and open a new, larger format
sensor front to compete on the pro side. I think they they
misjudged the market when they concieved of four thirds, not
realizing that the competition would end up trying to create ISO
1600 low noise cameras.
Agree that Oly misjudged the market, they should have designed a
"4/3" system with a sensor sized similarly to what Canon and Nikon
had. (4/3 length/width ratio, but larger sensor).

But that's too late to change. Oly doesn't have the resources to
promote a SECOND standard when the 4/3 standard is still kind of
shaky. They don't even have a fast prime lens for 4/3 yet.

The future is the sensors we now have. Sensors sized like old 35mm
film will remain a high end niche market.
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Sorry in advance; this turned out to be a long, boring post:

I'm not all that familiar with Olympus's worldwide corporate structure, but nearly all multi-national corporations work more or less the same way, so we can make some very safe assumptions.

In all, or nearly all, of the large markets, Olympus Japan almost undoubtedly distributes through wholly-owned subsidiary corporations. This is definitely the case in the U.S. Olympus America is a separate corporation, but effectively all of its shares are owned by Olympus Japan. Olympus America's financial results are even "consolidated" into the financial results of Olympus Japan -- i.e. if Olympus America makes a profit this year, the profit will be shown on the corporate financial report of Olympus Japan. Olympus America may have to pay corporate income taxes on its profits in the U.S., however (I'm not sure of the rules on this).

This structure is required because Olympus must have a legal business entity in the U.S. in order to do business here, and that must be a U.S. chartered corporation. It can enter into contracts, open accounts in U.S. banks, hire employees, pay payroll witholding taxes for its employees (nearly all of whom are, of course, U.S. citizens) etc. etc.

How much independence these wholly-owned subsidiaries have varies, I'm sure, from corporation to corporation, but they certainly have a lot of independence in settings sales and marketing strategies, and even, to some extent, in deciding what products to sell or not to sell. This just makes sense: how would executives in Japan know, for example, what would be a good TV commercial here in the U.S., or what would look stupid to American viewers? They don't. They rely on their U.S. subsidiary, staffed by Americans, to figure out what works in the U.S. And the subsidiary will indeed set up and operate (and pay for) repair centers, customer support, and they will generate and pay for all marketing, sales, and advertising activity within their distribution area. These are the costs that must be covered by the distributor's profit margin.

But ultimately, the Japanese call the shots -- the top executives at both Olympus America and Nikon USA right now are Japanese, sent to the U.S. to oversee operations (usually they serve five-year stints). If Olympus Japan makes a polka-dotted camera that Japanese schoolgirls love, and the U.S. subsidiary says "we can't sell that here", they'll probably trust that the Americans are right. But if push comes to shove, they can say "you're going to take 50,000 of them anyway, and you better figure out how to sell them." And the U.S. can't say no. I saw this sort of tension between Nikon USA and Nikon Japan all the time when I worked for Nikon USA. But obviously, there is close cooperation between, say, Olympus Japan and Olympus America (which is undoubtedly by far its biggest subsidiary). When I worked at Nikon USA, our top sales and marketing executives made about four trips a year to Japan to discuss strategy and tactics, and I'm sure it wasn't just a one-way conversation.

Now, in smaller markets, many companies the size of Olympus and Nikon distribute their products through independent import/export companies in whom they may have no ownership stake. This is more like a straight seller/buyer business relationship, although there is still a lot of close cooperation in most cases (and not much in others). This is generally nowhere near as effective as distributing through a subsidiary, but the market in, say, Venezuela just isn't big enough to justify setting up a subsidiary. Much better to find a guy who has an already existing import company, hopefully one that has experience with photographic products and is thus already familiar with the photo retail network in Venezuela. Give him the right to distribute Olympus in Venezuela and sell him as much as he's willing to buy. He will cover advertising and marketing costs in his country, and pay for them out of his profit margin. If you get an incompetent or non-aggressive guy, this doesn't work very well (he won't spend money to market, and his sales will be lackluster -- happens all the time).

I'm sure the Olympus Japan corporate web site has details on which of its foreign distributors are wholly-owned subsidiaries and which are not.
So Olympus UK/spain/France would each be a franchisee of Oly Japan
but would operate under the umberella of Oly Europe..

That would mean each country runs it's own operation: they have
total control over what they buy, have total control of how they
handle advertising, servicing and repairs, etc, but they'll always
be connected to the main Olympus empire who will make sure each
territory performs to a decentish standard..

Are they run like that? Just curious.
 

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