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D70 beats D80, why'd they do that?

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D50 owners are supposed to upgrade to D80.

D70 owners are supposed to upgrade to D200, not to a D80.

Look at the memory cards and the price points for your hints. So if the D80 doesn't cut it for you, be happy with your D70 or go get yourself a D200! :)

--------------------------------------------
Joe Braun Photography
http://www.citrusmilo.com/joe/
 
The D80 appears to have the same viewfinder as the D200. Much higher magnification, way better than the tunnel-vision found on the D70.

That's enough to make me consider buying one right away.
 
dylanbarnhart said:
Excuse my newbie question, but I've heard this logic many times and
failed to understand it. Can you explain?
Click to expand...
Yup.

You were right, and the "conventional wisdom" that I repeated is wrong.

I worked through a "test case" and the extra shutter speed really does help.

--
The Pistons led the NBA, and lost in the playoffs.
The Red Wings led the NHL, and lost in the playoffs.

It's up to the Tigers now...
Leading the league, and going all the way!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
1. Megapixels are important to me, as I crop images a lot. I mostly shoot outdoor sport.
2. Metering: I doubt 420 is worse than 1005.
3. Shutter: How many times (ever) you've used 1/8000 ?
4. I don't use flash at all.

5. SD vs CF: CF seems more robust. You could keep it in your pocket and don't be afraid that you'll break it or lose it.
Abouna said:
OK, Mpix aside, there seem to be quite a few areas where the D70
seems to win out. Strange if you ask me.
  • Metering: 1005 pixel RGB sensor for D70 vs 420 for D80, is lower
better?
  • Shutter: D70 1/8000, D80 1/4000
  • Flash sync, 1/500 vs 1/200, pretty big deal here
  • SD cards, not a fan, too small but not a deal breaker
This is not to say the D80 doesn't have some nice improvements
(though a lot of them are just nice "tweaks"). But why downgrade
these items, especially 2 and 3?

--
Abouna
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, I thought I'd mention this because I've read it a few times in this thread. 1/4000 at ISO 100 is not the always the same as 1/8000 at ISO 200.

1/8000 is still 1/8000 of a second. At the limit of exposure (1/8000 @ ISO 200 or 1/4000 at ISO 100) you get the same amount of light to your image BUT 1/8000 is twice as fast and therefore can freeze action better. It makes a significant difference for fast moving objects.

Regards
--
http://www.photo.net/photos/wheely
 
Abouna said:
  • Metering: 1005 pixel RGB sensor for D70 vs 420 for D80, is lower
better?
Click to expand...
It's a newer gen metering system though - my D50 meters better than my D70 ever did.
Abouna said:
  • Shutter: D70 1/8000, D80 1/4000
Click to expand...
This IS a mystery - strange!
Abouna said:
  • Flash sync, 1/500 vs 1/200, pretty big deal here
Click to expand...
Yep - but remember that the New D2Xs and the D200 only do 250th as does the Canon 1DS MK2 etc
Abouna said:
  • SD cards, not a fan, too small but not a deal breaker
Click to expand...
That's for Coolpix and D50 upgraders - I've lived with a D50 as secondary cam for months despite SD, in fact it's BETTER as the D50 will always have a card in it, instead of the card being filched as a backup for my D200.

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

 
Mark53 said:
knickerhawk said:
Abouna said:
I really think you're missing the point here.

You're going to buy a "new" camera, the latest iteration, and one
of the features is a downgrade from a 3 year old model.
Click to expand...
The only reason you would consider 1/8000 is because of severely
bright lighting conditions. Nikon replaced this otherwise useless
shutter speed with ISO 100, giving you the SAME exposure but better
(i.e., UPGRADED) image IQ. There's just no way to spin this change
as a downgrade.
Click to expand...
There's no spin about it. As far as shutter speed itself is
concerned, the D80 has less capability than the D70/s. Yes or no?
Click to expand...
Not to be (too) flippant, but this reminds me of "This is Spinal Tap" where the heavy metal guitarist explains that he prefers his amplifier because its volume control knob goes to "11" instead of 10 like all the other amps!

ISO 100 + 1/4000 gives you the same exposure as ISO 200 + 1/8000. And while it may be a theoretical wash as far as exposure is concerned, in practice the ISO 100 + 1/4000 will undoubtedly be the better choice because of marginally lower noise and (more importantly) avoidance of the inherent blooming and smearing problems of the electronic shutter used by the D70 to achieve 1/8000.

What if I told you the new Canon 6000SUXs goes to 1/16000 but its lowest ISO rating is 800? Would you be trumpeting its "better" shutter speed or questioning it's poorer ISO performance?

--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
 
Abouna said:
  • Metering: 1005 pixel RGB sensor for D70 vs 420 for D80, is lower
better?
Click to expand...
D80 uses the next generation of 3d color matrix as compared to the D70. The 420 and 1005 refers to the pixel count in the tiny ccd that measures the light values. These values, once measured are compared to an internal database of sorts to set the best exposure. The D70 uses a much smaller library in that database than does the D80 or D50 for that matter. Is it more effective? Look at the D50 performance as compared to the D70 and see.
Abouna said:
  • Shutter: D70 1/8000, D80 1/4000
Click to expand...
Oh come on now. Just how many photos have you ever taken at 1/8000? I don't think I have ever taken any.
Abouna said:
  • Flash sync, 1/500 vs 1/200, pretty big deal here
Click to expand...
This is a bigger deal, but costs have to be cut somewhere (ie: shutter structure)
Abouna said:
  • SD cards, not a fan, too small but not a deal breaker
Click to expand...
At first I didn't like this, but with the low cost of flash memory these days, no big deal.
Abouna said:
This is not to say the D80 doesn't have some nice improvements
(though a lot of them are just nice "tweaks"). But why downgrade
these items, especially 2 and 3?

--
Abouna
Click to expand...
--
Just my nickels worth.
Happy Snappin'!



Ron
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/recalcitrantron
FCAS Member No. 68
pbase supporter
D Seventy
 
Wheely said:
1/8000 is still 1/8000 of a second. At the limit of exposure
(1/8000 @ ISO 200 or 1/4000 at ISO 100) you get the same amount of
light to your image BUT 1/8000 is twice as fast and therefore can
freeze action better. It makes a significant difference for fast
moving objects.
Click to expand...
I'd agree that there would be a "significant difference for fast moving objects" between a shot taken with the D70's crappy electronic shutter at 1/8000 and the D80's (or other similar) mechanical shutters, but it wouldn't be in the D70's favor!

Be honest about it, how often do you use your D70 at 1/8000th for fast action?

--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root
 
Abouna said:
OK, Mpix aside, there seem to be quite a few areas where the D70
seems to win out. Strange if you ask me.
  • Metering: 1005 pixel RGB sensor for D70 vs 420 for D80, is lower
better?
  • Shutter: D70 1/8000, D80 1/4000
  • Flash sync, 1/500 vs 1/200, pretty big deal here
  • SD cards, not a fan, too small but not a deal breaker
This is not to say the D80 doesn't have some nice improvements
(though a lot of them are just nice "tweaks"). But why downgrade
these items, especially 2 and 3?

--
Abouna
Click to expand...
I might go out on a limb here When putting my $0.02 onto these matters.

1. The Metering

As many has already stated, the Metering is very likely to have been inherited from the D50. This may or may not be cost/keeping the D200 and D80 differentiated (I can't remember what metering system is in the D200 atm).

2. The Shutter Speed difference

I think Phil himself explained this very neatly in the preview that was posted in his hands on preview comparison table against the D70s.

Quote:

"As you can see from the table below the D80 carries some quite significant improvements compared to the D70s, the only slight negative point being slightly slower maximum shutter speed and flash sync (this due to a lack of an electronic shutter)."

Why did they do this? My guess, as many others, is probably due to cost vs.earnings and the usual differentiating of their product line.

3. The Flash Sync speed difference

See above.

4. SD or CF?

This is where my info on when/what/who/when will happen in the future and where my excellent imagination (coupled with what others have written before in this matter).

My theory is that SD will replace CF in the future, when and how is a different matter though. This theory might be as reliable as jell-o would be to build a house upon, but a theory nonethless.

As I stated earlier in this post: This is no biblical truth that I'm writing here, but more or less educated guesses from a camera nut that has spent far too much time buried in camera magazines and whatnot.

--
Peem
 
knickerhawk said:
Wheely said:
1/8000 is still 1/8000 of a second. At the limit of exposure
(1/8000 @ ISO 200 or 1/4000 at ISO 100) you get the same amount of
light to your image BUT 1/8000 is twice as fast and therefore can
freeze action better. It makes a significant difference for fast
moving objects.
Click to expand...
I'd agree that there would be a "significant difference for fast
moving objects" between a shot taken with the D70's crappy
electronic shutter at 1/8000 and the D80's (or other similar)
mechanical shutters, but it wouldn't be in the D70's favor!

Be honest about it, how often do you use your D70 at 1/8000th for
fast action?
Click to expand...
We're simply trying to "get you" to affirm that the D80 simply has less capability as far as shutter speed range. It's as simple as that. Try as you may, it's really a simple thing -- the range of shutter speeds on the D80 is not as wide as that of the D70/s. I think I would love the D80. BTW, I have a D70 and a D200 and about $12K worth of Nikkor glass -- you don't have to convince me that Nikon has another winner here. Just admit it, the D70 has more shutter speed flexibility than the D80.
 
Abouna said:
OK, Mpix aside, there seem to be quite a few areas where the D70
seems to win out. Strange if you ask me.
  • Metering: 1005 pixel RGB sensor for D70 vs 420 for D80, is lower
better?
Click to expand...
Seems to me D50 metering is more reliable than D70s anyway... not sure about number of sensor's pixels, but seems not to be a big deal - Sony A100 is, like, 40 segments in sensor, and I think Canon's also have much lower count than Nikon, yet they work just fine.

At the end of day, it seems to me moving from CAM900 to CAM100 gives more advantages regardless of pixel number.
Abouna said:
  • Shutter: D70 1/8000, D80 1/4000
Click to expand...
Now that might be important... not so much in terms of that 1/8000 speed (never used it), but does it mean that D80 has weaker, lower (mechanical) quality mecanism..?
Abouna said:
  • Flash sync, 1/500 vs 1/200, pretty big deal here
Click to expand...
Agree, very important... but as D80 has ISO100 and D70 starts with ISO200, isn't that a bit leveling flash sync speed..?
Abouna said:
  • SD cards, not a fan, too small but not a deal breaker
Click to expand...
No big deal for me. I would choose CF if I could, as even if I get D80 now, my next camera in a few years would most likely be D200-like with CF. Unless D200 replacement also comes out as SD card consumer.
Abouna said:
This is not to say the D80 doesn't have some nice improvements
(though a lot of them are just nice "tweaks"). But why downgrade
these items, especially 2 and 3?
Click to expand...
I'd like to know if D80 IS replacement for D70s, or, as ad says, new addition to lineup? One way or another, D80 is camera on it's own, not an upgrade path for D70 users... so it doesn't have to better D70 in every segment.
 
good post ron, u make too much sense ..lol
RecalcitrantRon said:
RecalcitrantRon said:
  • Metering: 1005 pixel RGB sensor for D70 vs 420 for D80, is lower
better?
Click to expand...
D80 uses the next generation of 3d color matrix as compared to the
D70. The 420 and 1005 refers to the pixel count in the tiny ccd
that measures the light values. These values, once measured are
compared to an internal database of sorts to set the best exposure.
The D70 uses a much smaller library in that database than does the
D80 or D50 for that matter. Is it more effective? Look at the D50
performance as compared to the D70 and see.
RecalcitrantRon said:
  • Shutter: D70 1/8000, D80 1/4000
Click to expand...
Oh come on now. Just how many photos have you ever taken at
1/8000? I don't think I have ever taken any.
RecalcitrantRon said:
  • Flash sync, 1/500 vs 1/200, pretty big deal here
Click to expand...
This is a bigger deal, but costs have to be cut somewhere (ie:
shutter structure)
RecalcitrantRon said:
  • SD cards, not a fan, too small but not a deal breaker
Click to expand...
At first I didn't like this, but with the low cost of flash memory
these days, no big deal.
RecalcitrantRon said:
This is not to say the D80 doesn't have some nice improvements
(though a lot of them are just nice "tweaks"). But why downgrade
these items, especially 2 and 3?

--
Abouna
Click to expand...
--
Just my nickels worth.
Happy Snappin'!



Ron
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/recalcitrantron
FCAS Member No. 68
pbase supporter
D Seventy
Click to expand...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nute/
 
It seems a lot of people seem to think that the lower shutter speed and flash sync speed are about cost, but as far as I'm aware that's not entirely the case.

It would appear that the Sony CCD used does not have an electronic shutter (all of the cameras using it have fully mechanical shutters).

The way a mechanical shutter (well, a focal plane shutter) works is by having two blinds that are moving across the image one after the other. At faster shutter speeds that means that only a fraction of the image is exposed at a time.

A slit of light moving across the sensor, if you like. Now the light from the flash actually only lasts for a very short time (1/10000s is what I've read?), so if it fired while this slit of light moved across the sensor then only the slit that was open at that time would get exposed. Not very useful obviously.

As far as I'm aware some of the newer flashes, like the SB-800 get around this by actually firing the flash multiple times synchronized with the movement of the shutter, allowing much faster flash synch speeds.

Hope that makes sense?
 
Nikon don’t want pro’s to buy it as a backup for the D2x and undermine the D200 The subtle downgrading of certain features is to undermine its usefulness as a pro tool without compromising to much its competitive position v's canon or its high end amateur credibility, The problem is how to bring new technology to the market at this price point without hurting the high end. the answer is to subtely position it as a higher performance camera but with a slightly lower market possition.
 
Truth be told, I'm GLAD they went with SD. It's smaller in the camera and makes the camera just that much lighter and gives the internals just a little more space for more important stuff. I really dislike the larger CF cards... but I guess this is personal preference.

I've been a fan of SD since before I owned my D50, so don't assume I am a fan of SD because I have these cards already.

--

 
I almost took the bait.

This is a troll thread.

nod and smile

Sure... the D70 beats the D80.

exits room, heads to store and puts name on list to buy the "inferior" D80.

wave

--

 
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