Cheaper Oly E Series

operating PROFIT, not product, and camera division, not imaging division.

brain faster than hands, and both slowing down these days.
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I think Nikon underestimated the # of D200 to build. I also seem to recall that Sony couldn't supply as many of the chips as Nikon asked for. You can't build cameras without chips. This is why Canon rules. They make their slr chips and most everyone else doesn't ( Pana may not have this problem either). It must be hard to be a camera manufaturer in this age.
thanks
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barondla

PC world has the E500 twin lens kit + 1GB cf+lowepro bag + ps 100 printer for £549 I think that is a good deal in anybody's money

That's PC World. So they'll be a catch.

[goes to check]

Didn't see the twin lens kit, but they have the single lens kit at £450. And the catches are:

No proper battery.

17-45 lens.

PC World is part of the Dixons Group. I cannot express my opinion of them here or PA would ban me and I'd get sued. Of course even DG have a bargain occasionally - I got a cheap FL50 there - but when considering kit from them I read the spec VERY carefully.

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Louis_Dobson said:

is all sorts of people thinking they are disagreeing with me while
saying exactly what I said in the first place.

Market research is an inexact science. And it depends on factors
that are not known (like what the opposition will be doing). At
the end of the day you have to take a judgement on whether you
would would rather take a risk of foregoing a profit or risking a
loss.

Click to expand...

It is an in-exact science but if it failed miserably each time people would not do it. From that point of view if Oly's market research failed and they didn't produce enough cams as a result they have lost revenue.

I am certain Oly will not have deliberately under-produced in order to inflate the price. They will have set a price to sell the 330 at for a profit and will want to sell as many of them as they can at that price. If they have not got enough to sell that is a mistake.

The impliction of your posts is that they are controlling the supply and demand chain to maintain a price. Well I suppose people love a conspiracy theory when in reality the situation is probably far simpler.

Louis_Dobson said:

Oly have said in their public statements, and their actions back it
up, that they will be careful to produce an operating product while
investing heavily in dSLRs (although in my view they may mean
things that are not, technically speaking, SLRs).

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I am not sure what that has to do with controlling how many cams are produced.

Louis_Dobson said:

The net result of this, as I said in the first place, is that
anyone hoping to get a firesale item from their current production
is likley to be disappointed. Demand for the E330 exceeds supply,
and that for the E500 seems to be holding steady. The only way
they will become dirt cheap is if they are replaced, and even then
you'll probabaly have to move fast.

Click to expand...

I don't have the supply and demand figures but I am not sure where you get the idea from that demand exceeds supply. Even where a retailer shows out of stock the price is still discounted on the recommended retail price which suggests the demand isn't that great or there would be no discount.

As to firesales that only happens at end of line with Oly stuff so I am not sure what evidence you have that when the 330 becomes obsolete it will not be available at a huge discount.

It won't be available at a huge discount now, but which d-slr is a few weeks after launch? It is the end of line price that will show if the 330 ends up in a firesale.

My view is that there is a good chance it will end up in a firesale because with the premium being charged over the 300 and 500 for live view I get the impression a lot of people think it is over-priced. That and basing it on the 300 which was not that well received due to the odd shape could well mean less sales volume than expected.

Dave

mentality from prospective customers. One have to be aware that Oly is not the only choice ... Its simply market economy. Customers, or rather prospective customers do not see the Oly system worth their price as of now ( you can debate if this is right or wrong, but the market speaks for itself )

Note that while many waits on the sideline, equally so, we should take a look at the competetions. NIkon and Canon, do sell their entry level DSLR with a steady flow of volume, There is in fact quite a rush for the new Sony; and Pentax is doing so so but OK in most regard but Pentax update its model incrementally with far shorter shelf life than most. So why is the Oly DSLR seemingly do not move off the shelf in any volume at all, except when there is a dump from the stock ( as the E-300 & E-1 are ) or only when the price is more inline with the market ( as the E-500 are ).

I've heard it many times that Oly is quality product and I do not dispute that, but quality as quality goes, other Mfr certainly are also delivering. So I suppoise Oly must have some market stratagy fault that made their product sitting, which Oly need to address indeed

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Franka

I am familiar with supply and demand curves etc, I'm an economics graduate, for my sins.

Nobody is suggesting Oly are "conspiring" to push up price by undeproducing, like any other company they will attempt to produce until MR=MC.

However they have to plan production schedules in advance, and, knowing, as they do, that market research is an inexact science, they will have to look at the downsides of under producing, compare them with the downsides of over producing, and decide which is the bigger risk in their particular situation.

Given that they have had huge inventory problems in the recent past, that they have had to approach their main board, where the other half of the company is doing very nicely thanks, with a thumping great loss a couple of years ago, and ask for investment exceeding short term profitability (which is in their statement), then I think it is a fair bet that they will err on the side of caution when it comes to production numbers. That also matches their public statements to press and shareholders, and matches what we see with the E330 which is holding its price well.

As for firesales - there will always be left over cameras when the model is dicontinued, of course. However, in the case of the E300 and E1 these were unusually high (to put it charitably), and Cameta and Digital Depot have been selling large numbers very cheaply. This has led to an expectation that waiting bit will always get you a big discount with Oly cameras.

I don't think that's true anymore. Oly seem to be being very careful not to "make things we can't sell." Doubtless when the next generation comes in there will be bargains to be had, but the months and months of hugely discounted E1 sales will only happen again if Oly screw up very badly indeed.

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Thankfully the boss has house moving to think about, so it's in store pending that happening... At least I haven't had to clean the sensor yet!
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They are making cameras and selling them at a profit. The E1 and E300 went pear shaped for them, but they've sold them all now, are making money on the cameras they produce now, and have new product waiting in the wings (it seems).

Canon and Nikon are the market leaders, which is nice for them, but Oly are doing just fine.

And, whatever camera they produce next, however wonderful, it will take a loooong time before that can overtrun the dominanace of the top two. That's no problem.

The REAL problem that affects ALL the manufacturers is that this is in one sense a mature market (everyone who wants a digital camera has one), and in another a very immature one: despite the best efforts of Nikon and Canon to make the same old camera every year with a few new bells and whistles, the whole market could change utterly at any time - indeed Oly is the maverick who seems most likley to change it. It sounds like the E330, which is a brilliant and innovative device, is just the start.
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Pentax *istDl I think it is is currently in Dixons windows at £349, including a lens...

Yes, Pentax have end of line stock too.
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HI Louis
for it to be a mistake.

Uzi
E10
E100RS

etc. - It must be a policy - as far as the E1 is concerned there is a little more complication because of the EU lead directive thingy (which I think applies to it, and to the Fuji S3). It would be interesting to know whether they are actually losing money on the E1, or whether, having written off all the R&D they're actually making a small profit.

Let's face it, if Olympus had lost money on each of the cameras they'd sold cheap at the end of it's run, they would be in a pretty parlous state economically!

kind regards
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Jono Slack
http://www.slack.co.uk

major tournaments because we seem unable to kick a penalty?

I think Oly have got the message these days.
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NO, Oly do not have a problem, what Oly have is a shaky market position. PEople do not buy into Oly at their new stock price becasue the mass market perceive it to be either too expensive, or the system do not worth the extra price premium, or that that same money can buy them a better ( not objectively ) alternative from other brands.

As I've stated, the market speak for itself. Oly do have innovation and technological prowness, but converting those into real marketable volume seller is what Oly been unable to do; and this is not purely Oly's own fault, just a fact of market economy.

I have to say people tend to see this too polarized, as either its for the brand or against it. In truth, most customer ( especially customer Oly are after ) just look at what's available on the market and choose what they perceive as the best for them. Some are rational and justified purchase, some are pretty much impulse buy and then most fall between the 2 and then some.

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Franka

elsewhere. I know a few people who've had them replaced. Of course it could be grossly exagerated as a problem - not owning one I don't care, it is just funny
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is that it operates as an SLR (with a full optical viewfinder, and fast AF) while repeating to backscreen.

YOUR version woulkd shut off the optical viewfinder when the electronic one was running, AND requires a full size chip that can be run full time without the quality degrading (what do you think Dark Frame Subtraction is for?).

Two things about your proposed camera:

1) It is not an "improved" E330, it is entirely different technology, working in a totally different way, to achieve a completely different result.

2) You might like the idea, but I would rather wallow in a bath of goat's vomit than have to shoot with it.

This is ever the way with E330 - instead of people saying "Wow, a nice SLR with a reslly GREAT framing aid" it is foot shuffling and snivelling form people who have a bee in their bonnet about some barking camera design they've been pestering people with for years, complaining the E330 isn't it.

I DON'T want AF off the sensor, it would be pants, and defeats the point of an SLR. I DO want a full time OVF, because OVF beats EVF by mile still. I just wnat an EVF for occasional use and quick glances while the cmeras is away from my eye. I DON'T want live histograms etc, I'm neither blind nor stupid, and I can work such things out for myself. I just want thye clearest possible view so I can check I hevn't cut the model's heat off while I'm chatting to her over the top of the camera, and that I'm lined up with the outside of the train tracks while I'm lying on the ground next to them.

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Just like the E300 2-lens kit, the E500 2-lens kit is bargain priced, when factoring in the recent $100 rebate.

Louis_Dobson said:

There seeems to be a lot of people waiting for prices to fall
before they'll consider an Oly. But that expectation seems to be
based on the E300/E1 price crashes. Both of rhose camera became
amazingly cheap because, bluntly, Oly built more than they could
sell and cleared them out of the warehouse by practically giving
them away. Oly have said they won't play that game anymore, and
very limited E330 supplies seem to demonstrate they mean it.

In the 8 months or so the E500 has been going, prices on it have
dropped only in line with the price of entry level cameras, and
they didn't try to compete with the KM5D (which was being firesaled
over XMas) or the Pentax (which was being firesaled last time I
looked), and they haven't really taken much off to deal with the
D50 (which isn't being firesaled as such, but is going for a lot
less than I think Nikon expected at launch).

As for the E330 - it was launched with a surprisingly high ticket
price and, in the UK at least, that's still what you pay.

So I reckon those of you waiting for Oly to screw up and hand you a
brilliant camera for the price of a pint and packet of crisps will
be waiting a loooong time. Basically, you'll see the last third of
the last run being punted out by Cameta / Digital Depot once the
replacements are in the stores.

What does anyone think?
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Click to expand...

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Perhaps there is a misunderstanding: I imagine a camera that maintains the OVF option of the E-330, and simply improves some aspects of mode B. I am not advocating a "pure EVIL" 4/3 camera -- though I suspect that those might come too, at least for the entry-level,

Louis_Dobson said:

YOUR version woulkd shut off the optical viewfinder when the electronic one was running

Click to expand...

Yes, just like mode B: that is what a video viewfinder is about. Nothing worse that the current mode B.

Louis_Dobson said:

, AND requires a full size chip that can be run full time without the quality degrading

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just like digicam sensors do, including the CMOS sensor in the Sony R1 EVF camera. And that sensor is BIGGER than 4/3 size. Doesn't the R1 example that rather debunk the myth that a 4/3 sized sensor would run too hot if used in video viewfinder mode much of the time?

Louis_Dobson said:

(what do you think Dark Frame Subtraction is for?).

Click to expand...

It is for long exposures, typically one second or longer, where dark current cumulates to significant levels.

Reading out the sensor many times a second clears out that accumulated dark current each time, so there is no reason that it dark current would adversely affect the frame that his then recorded any more than it does in normal DSLR operation at normal shutter speeds far faster than 1s or so.

Louis_Dobson said:

Two things about your proposed camera:

1) It is not an "improved" E330, it is entirely different technology, working in a totally different way, to achieve a completely different result.

Click to expand...

How? My main proposal is to add sensor AE and the option of AF off the sensor, only when used in mode B. Like what is already done in cameras like the Sony L1.

Louis_Dobson said:

2) You might like the idea, but I would rather wallow in a bath of goat's vomit than have to shoot with it.

Click to expand...

With the sensor heat myth sidelined and the OVF still in place, please explain why it would be worse than the E-330.

Louis_Dobson said:

I DON'T want AF off the sensor, it would be pants, and defeats the point of an SLR.

Click to expand...

So use mode B with manual focus as with the E-330, or the OVF mode: how much worse is simply adding the option of AF off the sensor to mode B?

Louis_Dobson said:

I DO want a full time OVF.

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Agreed; see above.

Louis_Dobson said:

they stopped production some time ago. However it WAS the case.

I did wonder if Nikon MIGHT have a full time D200 line, it would make sense. As we agree though, they clearly underestimated demand. Odd - it always looked a big seller to me.

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Yes; I suppose the D200 was just even more successful than expected. Maybe Nikon planned on competing with a 10MP+ 30D or a less expensive or higher resolution 5D without weaknesses like 3fps.

Louis_Dobson said:

By the way, since you clealry follow this stuff, is the E500 built by a company actually owned by Oly?

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At a guess, in an Olympus factory, though I do not know for sure. I know that Olympus made a big deal about building a new factory in which the E-1 was made, so I would expect that the capacity there has been converted for making at least some of the subsequent 4/3 bodies.

--

a lens of this type is best employed to cover the angular field of view for which it is designed. The field curvature and astigmatism are specifically adjusted for this field coverage. --- Arthur Cox in 'Photographic Optics'
I used to get frustrated, now I try to be amused --- Elvis Costello

I agree that the pessimism about Olympus and 4/3 makes little sense given the facts: Olympus has come from well behind Pentax and Minolta in film SLRs,and with no AF lens system to build on, to being profitable in digital cameras while Pentax is barely so, and K-M had to bail out. And this profitability is based in part on sales far better than those competitors.

Breaking with the past and developing a new system of lenses all well adapted to the sensor format seems to have been a good long-term strategy, after the expected painful transition.

But some seem to measure success or failure only by being #1 or not (or being in the top 2, in the case of some Nikon enthusiasts!)