Canon D30 Snobbery in rec.photo.digital

Hello Bryan,

I found out several things in the last few years ...

It's not obvious to take "good" photos, no matter what type of camera you're using. It is in fact really hard work to get a shot just as you want it.

I experienced that the E-10/(20) is the perfect tool for me to capture an image just nthe way I want it to be.

For somebody else, that can be another type of camera, but that doesn't matter to me.
It's the final result that counts.
I don't see this as a competition between cameras at all.
It's more like what somebody does with the capabillities of a certain camera.

My good old Canon Pro 70 was a very "limited" camera, but once you knew it, a lot was possible - a way to express creativity.

The E-10 did (and does) offer me a lot less limitations, and I'm glad about that, but I'm also glad I first teached myself taking photos with a "limited" camera ...
Glad you still visit Belgium Digital ...

I don't know what's happening the last few days, but we received over 1.000 visitors/day ...
And yes, I will take care ;-)

But I'm also in search of THAT photo, day after day ... and it doesn't come from itself.
Thanks for your nice message.

Kind regards,
Jaja
http://www.belgiumdigital.com

Bryan said:

Just talking about you earlier in the forum but I went on a bit and
typed too much.

Glad to see that you are still talking sense and taking excellent
photographs. Even though I did not purchase the E10, my reson for
looking at your site many months ago) I still visit.

Take care

Bryan

Jaja - Belgium Digital said:

Indeed, those "contests" doesn't make that much sense ...
Just like yourself, I've choosen the camera that would forfill my
photographical "needs" as good as possible at an affordable price,
without feeling "guilty" to spend a hughe amount of mony to
practice my hobby - or name it "passion" in my case.
I keep saying that I saw the most awfull D-30 images and the most
wonderfull Canon S10, Oly E-10, Nikon CP990, ... shots ...
And I also saw the most wonderfull D30 images and a lot of awfull
E-10, CP990, D-7, ... shots ...
Things had to be kept in perspective.
The camera is just an instrument that captures what the
photographer wants to capture - but he has to capture it!

Kind regards,
Jaja
http://www.belgiumdigital.com

Blokey Bloggs said:

I tire of all these contests. E10 E20 707 D30 etc

You chose what suited you best as I did and others. Who gives a
toss what PS thinks or anyone else!

I like the D30 it is a nice digital SLR. In the right hands it's
very good.

I think the E10 reflects light upwards too and has a single lens.
Indeed, it even uses a mirror in the vf path to reflect light to
the eye. Seems very SLR to me...

Blokey

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Brian Mackey said:

great question, are they doing better work, most of the time theres
never a post of proof, just the gift of gab

and of course, the constant theme of buyer remorse once they found
out they bit of more than they could chew.

Click to expand...

Who are you people talking about? Who are "they", and what buyers remorse. Am I missing part of this thread??????

regards,
Jim K

Ger Bee,

Oh come on! The question posed is with respect to the D30 not the D1x. The D30 is no Dix.

Frank B

Ger Bee said:

Especially, and especially when one adds in the D1x.

As for one over the other - one strats to get used to the SLR and
its capabilities again adn I find I'm not using my E10 - not that I
don't still like it - I just don't.

Ger Bee said:

Let's get real here. Do you guys think the D30 snobbery is caused
by true performance superiority, or are they just trying to justify
a more expensive purchase? If price were no object, would you
rather have an E20 or a D30, D1X, whateva?

Gary Eickmeier

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Jim K said:

Diana, a D30 costs about $500 more then the E10 did, and what the
E20 does now. A good lens (28-135 IS) costs $350. So all you need
to spend is an extra $850 to get a d30. People who invest big bucks
for lenses make their living at it. The average person can still
get started with a D30 with a modest amount of money. Indeed some
E10 users have spent more on accessaries then some D30 owners have
invested so far.

Click to expand...

No, that isn't what I'm saying. I realize what you say is true, but read this thread---most of these folks don't make their living with these which you can figure out from their posts---and there are more than a couple who talk about 8-10,000. I guess its where you put your priorities--or what you feel you need to make you 'happy'.

NT

Hi Jaja,

I don't see this as Snobbery. I define snobbery as people who view themselves better then other people for whatever reason. Viewing cameras better then other cameras is just the nature of the beast on forums like this. It doesn't matter what camera they have, anyone can be a snob, even E10/20 owners, except you or me of course ; )

Its like you said and more. We are all fond of a perticular camera for one reason or another, and if some one wants to get excited about one then fine. It only means they are happy. Visit any of the forums and you will find people are all the same. They will defend their camera, and comparrisons are unavoidable. Its unfotunate when it gets to a battle because its really pointless. After all, we are only talking about a tool. Some definitly take it more seriously then others, but how different are we here?

Another thing you bring up which got my interest is you point out how difficult it is to take a really great picture. Its not that we lack imagination or creativity, though some may I suppose, but capturing what you intended is the real challenge. Even after a good day of shooting and we get home to review the pics, there will always be one or two or three that we really get excited over, just like a fisherman who caught the big one! And there is the disappointment too. The ones that got away!

Best Regards,
Jim K
http://www.jimsphotopage.com/digital/e20/

Jaja - Belgium Digital said:

I found out several things in the last few years ...
It's not obvious to take "good" photos, no matter what type of
camera you're using. It is in fact really hard work to get a shot
just as you want it.
I experienced that the E-10/(20) is the perfect tool for me to
capture an image just nthe way I want it to be.
For somebody else, that can be another type of camera, but that
doesn't matter to me.
It's the final result that counts.
I don't see this as a competition between cameras at all.
It's more like what somebody does with the capabillities of a
certain camera.
My good old Canon Pro 70 was a very "limited" camera, but once you
knew it, a lot was possible - a way to express creativity.
The E-10 did (and does) offer me a lot less limitations, and I'm
glad about that, but I'm also glad I first teached myself taking
photos with a "limited" camera ...
Glad you still visit Belgium Digital ...
I don't know what's happening the last few days, but we received
over 1.000 visitors/day ...
And yes, I will take care ;-)
But I'm also in search of THAT photo, day after day ... and it
doesn't come from itself.
Thanks for your nice message.

Kind regards,
Jaja
http://www.belgiumdigital.com

Bryan said:

Just talking about you earlier in the forum but I went on a bit and
typed too much.

Glad to see that you are still talking sense and taking excellent
photographs. Even though I did not purchase the E10, my reson for
looking at your site many months ago) I still visit.

Take care

Bryan

Jaja - Belgium Digital said:

Indeed, those "contests" doesn't make that much sense ...
Just like yourself, I've choosen the camera that would forfill my
photographical "needs" as good as possible at an affordable price,
without feeling "guilty" to spend a hughe amount of mony to
practice my hobby - or name it "passion" in my case.
I keep saying that I saw the most awfull D-30 images and the most
wonderfull Canon S10, Oly E-10, Nikon CP990, ... shots ...
And I also saw the most wonderfull D30 images and a lot of awfull
E-10, CP990, D-7, ... shots ...
Things had to be kept in perspective.
The camera is just an instrument that captures what the
photographer wants to capture - but he has to capture it!

Kind regards,
Jaja
http://www.belgiumdigital.com

Blokey Bloggs said:

I tire of all these contests. E10 E20 707 D30 etc

You chose what suited you best as I did and others. Who gives a
toss what PS thinks or anyone else!

I like the D30 it is a nice digital SLR. In the right hands it's
very good.

I think the E10 reflects light upwards too and has a single lens.
Indeed, it even uses a mirror in the vf path to reflect light to
the eye. Seems very SLR to me...

Blokey

Click to expand...

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Frank B said:

Ger Bee,

Oh come on! The question posed is with respect to the D30 not the
D1x. The D30 is no Dix.

Frank B

Click to expand...

Yes - for the purpose of comparing to and E10 it certainly is. Everyting I can say about the D30 over the E10 I can say (even more) about the D1x.

And read the last line of the thread I replied to - it was NOT brought up my me - look again.

Brian Mackey said:

Laurie, his tone is not wrong, but he is. the camera is a SLR,
everyone knows that the "D30-system" may be superior, if you can
afford it. But the camera itself is not. Since if you buy the E-20
you have a working camera, vs the D30 one does not. More $$$$$$ is
required

2.000 vs about 10,000

If that kind of invetsment was required to enjoy photography and
earn a living also, not many would be in the bus. Too many people
are making money and wondereful photographs with the E-10/20 series
"SLR" to denounce its solid presence in the industry.

Click to expand...

D30 owners do not have to spend $10,000. Some very good Canon lenses are quite in-expensive such as the 50/1.8 ($90) or the 70-200/F4 L zoom (around $600). However, many D30 owners do become lens junkies and there is a large lens selection to feed the addiction (around 55 different lenses). The D30 body has its drawbacks but it produces very smooth images and is part of the excellent EOS system.

I think the reason the two are compared is the E-20 is at the high end of the fixed lens cameras and handles like an SLR. D30 is the most popular of the two interchangable lens SLRs that non pros can afford.

Sorry to be so late in punching back into my own thread, but duty called (family).

The point of the question was not to provoke a turf war over cameras or brands. I know we all have our personal tastes in equipment. I just asked it in the Oly forum so I might get a favorable answer to whether the final photographic result is different or the same with the two cameras. I know some of you have both cameras, and would have definite (unbiased) opinions.

I know that the more expensive cameras have higher writing speeds, less noise, perhaps some greater convenience or features, and interchangeable lenses. No contest on that. If you can afford a D1X, go for it. My ONLY question is whether the photographic result is superior or not. I just happen to love the design of the E10/20, and prefer it and its fixed lens over all others. But if the more expensive cameras had ANY superiority in results, it would get my attention, if not my credit card. My current opinion is that there may be more measurable or visible at 100% on the monitor noise in the E, but not in the prints that you make on your inkjet. But I have no Epson printer, either, so I could be wrong on that.

One more caution in these types of arguments: I have heard people say that it isn't the camera, but the man (person) behind the camera that counts more. Well, fine, but that is beside the point. We all know that we need certain capabilities in a camera to be able to get the images we want - such as manual control over focus, exposure, DOF, etc, and a PC contact to use studio or other auxiliary flashes, SLR viewing with fine focusing capability, and good ergonomics with ease of setting all the variables. And rapid shutters so we can capture the moment we want! Some of these requirements put some cameras out of contention, but the E is not one of them. It has all of the features a pro would need except interchangeable lenses, which is NOT a problem if the E series lens is adequate for your needs.

So if I love the design of the E20 and can live with the write speed and don't need some weird lens or other that is available to Canon users, then there is nothing superior about the D30 - unless the photographic end product really is distinguishable from the E20 in a side-by-side test.

So, I guess if anyone of you has done such a test, I would be very interested in your opinion, and if anyone who has both cameras could post sample pix of the same subject and let us guess which is superior (without knowing which camera took them), that might be fun.

Or, if this is getting boring, let me know.

Thanks for all the responses.

Gary Eickmeier

Gary, I think you're missing the point. Most cameras can produce reasonable results under the right conditions, and therefore comparing them may not be productive. What distinguishes the more expensive ones is their flexibility, i.e. their ability to take pictures under a wider range of circumstances. Thus, the lower noise of the D30 means that up to ISO 800 is usable, and that, coupled with accessibilty to very fast (up to f1.0!)and sharp lenses, allows pictures to be taken using available light that could not even be attempted with lesser cameras.

That being said, however, I must hasten to add that I find it difficult to justify the prices that are being asked for the higher-end cameras.

I usually keep out of these trivial camera comparisons,
but the name Pekka Saarinen did attract my attention.
He does outstanding work with his camera and I wonder
who in the hell are you to call him a snob.

But anyway after reading your edited version, and thank you
for excluding the whole message and making me search for it.

Also in the future please take the whole message or link to it
so I can read the "original" posting. God did give me a brain
and I do not want you be the Editor of what I read.

So I copy the beginning paragraph

I have also always wondered how people don't remember that the lens
and ability to change them is the most important thing in a camera
system. Many people only see megapixels. Megapixels are a non-issue.
Less is more when less is of best quality. With a good lens D30 can be
really wonderful, with a bad lens it can be mediocre. It's like a high
end hifi set, the whole system is as good as its worst part.

So he has a point of view you disagree with. He basically want
his camera to have a camera with interchangeable lens.

My point of view there is no snob only some person who is acting
like a troll. Here is a comparison with photo you can try. Take
you photo and compare them with Pekka's.

No not his D-30 his G-1! He wins and you lose and you lose by a mile.

This argument is not worth my two cents!!

Bill

Take pictures, enjoy your camera!

I just realized what a waste of time it is to do comparison like that. I have fallen to these comparison debates too but will try cool myself off them now and in the future

Mr. P. Saarinen can keep his opinions - it doesn't affect my world anyway ... he takes sometimes good pictures but most often I find them artificial

Sometimes when someone states something that misses facts by miles I will probably correct him but mostly I will try to concentrate getting more knowledge and understanding how to take better pictures with equipment we have available.

jukka

Gary Eickmeier said:

I know we all have our personal tastes in
equipment.

Click to expand...

Gary Eickmeier said:

I know that the more expensive cameras have higher writing speeds,
less noise, perhaps some greater convenience or features, and
interchangeable lenses. No contest on that. If you can afford a
D1X, go for it.

Click to expand...

Gary Eickmeier said:

My ONLY question is whether the photographic result
is superior or not.

Click to expand...

You have already anwsered your own questions so far.

Gary Eickmeier said:

I just happen to love the design of the E10/20,
and prefer it and its fixed lens over all others. But if the more
expensive cameras had ANY superiority in results, it would get my
attention, if not my credit card.

Click to expand...

Obviously not, since your very happy with the E10.

Gary Eickmeier said:

My current opinion is that there
may be more measurable or visible at 100% on the monitor noise in
the E, but not in the prints that you make on your inkjet. But I
have no Epson printer, either, so I could be wrong on that.

Click to expand...

Gary, this is a no brainer. Do you really need to see side by side comparisions of the D30, D1x, DCS760, 1D to determind if they are really any better quality then the E10? Could we have all missed this? Why on earth would any one pay $2600 to $7000 for a camera, and invest in countless thousands more for lenses if the quality was not that much better then the E10? Gary, do you really suppose that a sensor 4x larger then the E10, with a $1000 lens on it would be about the same as the E10? I'd be curious as to what kind of stereo system you have. After all they all play music, how much better can the more expensive ones be.

Gary Eickmeier said:

So if I love the design of the E20 and can live with the write
speed and don't need some weird lens or other that is available to
Canon users, then there is nothing superior about the D30 - unless
the photographic end product really is distinguishable from the E20
in a side-by-side test.

Click to expand...

And what proof or evidence would satisfy you? Since you have no printer how could you tell? You would only have other peoples word to take. Or judge by your computers monitor.

The real question should be this. Are you really satisfied with your E10? I mean if you were why would you care which is better. There is better out there for sure, and there always will be better around each corner. I would suggest that you stick with your E10 and get a printer first. You need a printer.

Gary Eickmeier said:

So, I guess if anyone of you has done such a test, I would be very
interested in your opinion, and if anyone who has both cameras
could post sample pix of the same subject and let us guess which is
superior (without knowing which camera took them), that might be
fun.

Click to expand...

And this will show you what? You already acknowledged that the E10 has more noise on screen. Thats about the biggest difference you will be able to see from your monitor. There are already enough samples right here at this site to compare. Thats all you need without a printer. If you had a printer you could print out your own images and you wouldn't need to ask any one. You would be able to see the difference and judge for yourself.

I have done many print tests. I can see visible noise from the e10 on a 8x10 print holding the print a foot away. Many times it not distracting at all, some times it is. There is ZERO noise on the d30, therefore the prints are out of this world. But don't take my word for it, or any ones word for it. Get a damn printer and see for yourself. I think getting a printer should be next on your wish list. It will open up new doors and ways for you to further expand your enjoyment of digital photography. You may not need anything better then the E10. You may decide you do want better. But first you need a printer. And then only you can decide whats good enough for you.

Kindest Regards,
Jim K

Jim K said:

Gary Eickmeier said:

I just happen to love the design of the E10/20,
and prefer it and its fixed lens over all others. But if the more
expensive cameras had ANY superiority in results, it would get my
attention, if not my credit card.

Click to expand...

Obviously not, since your very happy with the E10.

Jim K53618 said:

My current opinion is that there
may be more measurable or visible at 100% on the monitor noise in
the E, but not in the prints that you make on your inkjet. But I
have no Epson printer, either, so I could be wrong on that.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jim K53618 said:

And what proof or evidence would satisfy you? Since you have no
printer how could you tell? You would only have other peoples word
to take. Or judge by your computers monitor.

Click to expand...

Jim, what did I say that made you think I have an E10, or that I don't have a printer?

Gary Eickmeier

Where did this guy come from??

William C said:

I usually keep out of these trivial camera comparisons,
but the name Pekka Saarinen did attract my attention.
He does outstanding work with his camera and I wonder
who in the hell are you to call him a snob.

Click to expand...

Where did you read that?

Member said:

But anyway after reading your edited version, and thank you
for excluding the whole message and making me search for it.

Click to expand...

I don't need to quote the entire message. I was not talking about the entire message. I don't like people who don't edit text they are replying to.

Member said:

Also in the future please take the whole message or link to it
so I can read the "original" posting. God did give me a brain
and I do not want you be the Editor of what I read.

Click to expand...

Actually, I don't know how to link to a newsgroup message. There is no URL that I can find. Can you enlighten me on this?

Member said:

So I copy the beginning paragraph

I have also always wondered how people don't remember that the lens
and ability to change them is the most important thing in a camera
system. Many people only see megapixels. Megapixels are a non-issue.
Less is more when less is of best quality. With a good lens D30 can be
really wonderful, with a bad lens it can be mediocre. It's like a high
end hifi set, the whole system is as good as its worst part.

Click to expand...

How does this change the part I quoted?

Member said:

So he has a point of view you disagree with. He basically want
his camera to have a camera with interchangeable lens.

Click to expand...

That isn't the point.

Member said:

My point of view there is no snob only some person who is acting
like a troll. Here is a comparison with photo you can try. Take
you photo and compare them with Pekka's.

Click to expand...

Missing the point.

Member said:

No not his D-30 his G-1! He wins and you lose and you lose by a mile.

Click to expand...

Are you under the impression that the G-1 has interchangeable lenses?

Member said:

This argument is not worth my two cents!!

Click to expand...

Then what are you doing here?

Sorry pal, but I wasn't calling Pekka a snob, just referring to his opinion as an example of D30 snobbery that many people have. I'm trying to understand the technical basis of it. If that doesn't interest you, then don't worry about it.

Gary Eickmeier

Yes, but the D30 isn't that much better than the E-10 when it comes to performance, the AF is about the same, the shutter lag the same, what differentiates it is the flush speed and buffer size (not forgetting it has to deal with smaller files), but even then I don't think it is the quantum leap that was suggested.

Paul

Ger Bee said:

Frank B said:

Ger Bee,

Oh come on! The question posed is with respect to the D30 not the
D1x. The D30 is no Dix.

Frank B

Click to expand...

Yes - for the purpose of comparing to and E10 it certainly is.
Everyting I can say about the D30 over the E10 I can say (even
more) about the D1x.

And read the last line of the thread I replied to - it was NOT
brought up my me - look again.

Click to expand...

I would agree with that too

Andrew Grant said:

Brian Mackey said:

Laurie, his tone is not wrong, but he is. the camera is a SLR,
everyone knows that the "D30-system" may be superior, if you can
afford it. But the camera itself is not. Since if you buy the E-20
you have a working camera, vs the D30 one does not. More $$$$$$ is
required

2.000 vs about 10,000

If that kind of invetsment was required to enjoy photography and
earn a living also, not many would be in the bus. Too many people
are making money and wondereful photographs with the E-10/20 series
"SLR" to denounce its solid presence in the industry.

Click to expand...

D30 owners do not have to spend $10,000. Some very good Canon
lenses are quite in-expensive such as the 50/1.8 ($90) or the
70-200/F4 L zoom (around $600). However, many D30 owners do become
lens junkies and there is a large lens selection to feed the
addiction (around 55 different lenses). The D30 body has its
drawbacks but it produces very smooth images and is part of the
excellent EOS system.

I think the reason the two are compared is the E-20 is at the high
end of the fixed lens cameras and handles like an SLR. D30 is the
most popular of the two interchangable lens SLRs that non pros can
afford.

Click to expand...

Andrew Grant27981 said:

D30 owners do not have to spend $10,000. Some very good Canon
lenses are quite in-expensive such as the 50/1.8 ($90) or the
70-200/F4 L zoom (around $600

Click to expand...

I would consider $600 to pretty expensive for a lens! The most expensive lens I have ever bought (for a 35mm camera) cost £169 GBP - reasonable for a hobbyist.

I did pay quite a lot more for a Schneider lens for my large format, but onece you are into the small volume market you have to accept that the prices rise dramatically.

Paul Blamire said:

Yes, but the D30 isn't that much better than the E-10 when it comes
to performance, the AF is about the same, the shutter lag the same,
what differentiates it is the flush speed and buffer size (not
forgetting it has to deal with smaller files), but even then I
don't think it is the quantum leap that was suggested.

Paul

Click to expand...

I'd actually have to agree here - I did try the D30 and I also felt I was not upgrading enough with it over the E10. If I were to buy one or the other - without owning either before - then the D30 has a few edges.