Panasonic SLR only a month away!

Hi Erik
I hope last nights sleep has helped you to see clearer today?

Go on.. give it another read... it might just make a bit more sense today ;-)

Erik37 said:

Manikin said:

Quote:
"Matsushita's move to challenge these established market leaders is
being made by releasing a flagship product: a digital SLR camera,
which it is hoped will provide a major boost to the firm's digital
camera business."

Lets take the sentence apart.

Matsushita is moving to challege 'established market leaders'

Click to expand...

Interpretation: market share leaders

Click to expand...

yes.

Erik37 said:

Erik37 said:

by releasing a 'flagship digital SLR camera'

Click to expand...

That's your construction.

Click to expand...

yes... bcos that's what it said. Go sit down and 'take 5'.. then come back and re-read the link! (read what is there without reading what you think is there )

Erik37 said:

They have talked about their motives for this elsewhere too,
by making "DSLRs" they will be seen as a more serious player.
(Helping them sell more cameras of all kinds, and at better
prices - for them, i.e. higher.)

Click to expand...

yes, agree.

Erik37 said:

Erik37 said:

Erik37 said:

Erik37 said:

It makes sense to release 'a good 'un' first (like Oly did with the
E-1)

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Erik37 said:

Erik37 said:

better to bring out the biggest and baddest first.. then lesser
cameras are 'lesser on purpose' while everyone can see the high
standard. No, I believe this way is best.

Click to expand...

Not for the reasons you state, IMHO.

Click to expand...

Erik37 said:

K-M is a counter-example. The 7D sold poorly (and got criticised by
Phil)
due to high price. If sensor prices had allowed them to launch the 5D
as a first body and at a competitive price, they would probably
still be in business.

Click to expand...

I have a different take on that: it was bcos they didn't have 'professional' aspirations

Erik37 said:

Erik37 said:

No-one would have bought
into 4/3rds if they'd brought out the E-300/500 first! Who'd have
bought the 300/2.8, etc, if all you've seen is a prosumer dSLR?

Click to expand...

I think the number of sold 300/2.8 is insignificant for Oly.

Click to expand...

Yes, but the point is still good! If they brought the E-3/500 out first the only people who'd have bought 4/3rds would have been the ameteur market that minolta/pentax and all the others are fighting over. By releasing a 'Professional aspired' system.. get that word.. system It told everyone that this was more than a few cameras and accessories. That's why guys bought the 4 grand lenses and £600 flash units!

Erik37 said:

Probably the 14-54 and 50-200 are their best profit makers,
lenses bought by E-300 and E-500 owners too.

Click to expand...

Yes.. what's your point? No 'Pro' would buy into 4/3rds without there being Pro level lenses for him. He may only use the 150/2 occasionally but at least it is there for him.

Erik37 said:

Erik37 said:

I'd say a high end amateur body.. a good all-rounder but not as
specialist as a 'pro' level one.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Erik37 said:

Three more argument for non-pro level for their first body:
1) upgrade path for current FZ users
2) Panasonic not a respected name among pros (yet!), who
tend to be a bit conservative and brand-concious.
3) A pro body would help Oly sell their pro glass, not optimal for
Panny.
Better for them to go for the less well covered budget lens section
(to start with) and of course a body to go with such lenses.

Click to expand...

You did notice that I agreed with you that the panny will be a high end 'amateur' body? or a non-pro biased one?

Erik37 said:

Just my two öre

Click to expand...

You're hard work!

Any dSLR will be a 'flag ship' model for panny! Tho there's dSLRs and there's dSLRs!

I think 'high end' = all the bells and whistles they can fit in it done to a good standard of usability, feature set and comfort. It'll look and feel like a nice piece of kit!

I think there's scope to believe that it will be a very good camera! You may not wanna take it up Everest with you.. but it'll do partys, landscapes and pix of the cat just dandy!

I'm not being derogatory...

mrfitz said:

If its a E-330 then they can shove it! No thanks!

Also EVF is most def inferior to optical...i can see a place for
two seperate cameras one EVF one optical...no optical and people
wont take them as a serious player...

Click to expand...

Here ya go mrfitz - the ultimate viewfinder! Can't beat it for representing the world the way it truly is. Zero lag, zero loss of light, no distortion, and no chromatic aberration! No phony magnification from the lenses (the world doesn’t actually get bigger now, does it?) No bulky prisms or mirrors, no mirror slap, no delicate mechanism to get out of whack. Absolutely no drain on the battery! Why doesn't every camera have one of these? OVFs, move over – the future is here!

Tom K. said:

mrfitz said:

If its a E-330 then they can shove it! No thanks!

Also EVF is most def inferior to optical...i can see a place for
two seperate cameras one EVF one optical...no optical and people
wont take them as a serious player...

Click to expand...

Here ya go mrfitz - the ultimate viewfinder! Can't beat it for
representing the world the way it truly is. Zero lag, zero loss of
light, no distortion, and no chromatic aberration! No phony
magnification from the lenses (the world doesn’t actually get
bigger now, does it?) No bulky prisms or mirrors, no mirror slap,
no delicate mechanism to get out of whack. Absolutely no drain on
the battery! Why doesn't every camera have one of these? OVFs, move
over – the future is here!

Click to expand...

Well all I can say is you clearly have not used a decent OVF then!!!

EVF is in no way as good as OVF....You really cant argue on that one..

as for tech freaks, well thats great, but it still doesnt help you take a decent pic...

there are gear heads and photographers.....

mrfitz said:

mrfitz said:

Here ya go mrfitz - the ultimate viewfinder! Can't beat it for
representing the world the way it truly is. Zero lag, zero loss of
light, no distortion, and no chromatic aberration! No phony
magnification from the lenses (the world doesn’t actually get
bigger now, does it?) No bulky prisms or mirrors, no mirror slap,
no delicate mechanism to get out of whack. Absolutely no drain on
the battery! Why doesn't every camera have one of these? OVFs, move
over – the future is here!

Click to expand...

Well all I can say is you clearly have not used a decent OVF then!!!

Click to expand...

Well all I can say is you clearly have no sense of humor then.

Manikin said:

Hi Erik
I hope last nights sleep has helped you to see clearer today?

Go on.. give it another read... it might just make a bit more sense
today ;-)

Click to expand...

I see the smiley but I do find that kind of personal argumentative
style rather tiresome, so I'll try to end the discussion for my part
by concluding that Chromatic Abberation seems to share my
interpretation of the article. Anyway we'll see in a few days.

Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden, F Z 5 owner
The only free lunch in photography: O I S

dpogson said:

would just be using standard Olympus lenses.>

Whilst not wishing to cast doubt on the quality of Olympus optics,
the FZ range has relied on the Leica name as one of it's best sales
features.

However, to equip the new DSLR with even one extra lens by Leica
would place it out of the ball park for most amateurs, unless Leica
come up with something less than their usual standard of
perfection, which they won't.

Click to expand...

If the Leica name, as you say and I agree with, is a very
good "sales feature" for the FZ cameras, I would think it could
fill somewhat of the same role for 4/3rds lenses. If the FZ lenses can
be mass produced by Panasonic at low cost (the FZ4 selling for $250)
while maintaining high quality, so could the 4/3 lenses. The FZ30 lens
is quite a chunk of glass, a 4/3rds lens may typically be bigger and
cost correspondlingly more, but it doesn't have to fetch fantasy
prices unless Panasonic and Leica have decided so.

dpogson said:

Fifty-year-old Leica 50mm Summicron lenses are fetching $600-plus
on Ebay.

Click to expand...

I think there is a difference between lenses hand-made in Germany
in small numbers by Leica, and lenses mass produced in Japan by
Panasonic under Leica quality control.

dpogson said:

Personally, I thing Panasonic are making a mistake in trying to
compete with Nikon etc., even if they "rebadge" Olympus lenses.

Click to expand...

By making an "EVIL" camera, they avoid as far as possible to compete
head on with existing offers. If they make affordable OIS lenses, that
would be another thing to distingush them from some of the old names.

dpogson said:

If they take the existing FZ30 lens and make it detachable, what is
the point?

Click to expand...

That you can put on a wider or faster lens instead?
And obviously the bigger sensor, with dynamic range and clean iso 200.
That you can reuse the lens on a new body when available?

dpogson said:

The FZ range must have given a huge boost to Leica's fortunes in
the digital market,

Click to expand...

We really don't know how the deal between Panasonic and Leica
looks like. They've been (still are?) in financial trouble so maybe they
had to sell themselves rather cheaply?

Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden, F Z 5 owner
The only free lunch in photography: O I S

Kevin Coppalotti said:

The only way to entice people to buy this will be Price

Click to expand...

No, the EVF will offer functionality traditional DSLRs don't have.
This is the future.

As someone said, EVF will do to OVF what digital did to film.

Assuming they did a good job, being first is an advantage to
give them a good start.

Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden, F Z 5 owner
The only free lunch in photography: O I S

Neil McKenzie said:

Bob, Thanks for the info. I set my camera on manual pointing at
my desktop and zeroed in the exposure. As I changed the aperature
the histogram did not change. I then set it on Program and changed
the EV and the histogram shifted as one would expect. What is
going on here?

BTW - I checked out your gallery. You have a real cool collection
of old cameras!

--
Neil

Click to expand...

Hi Neil,

That is the sort of thing that I was refering to. I think each mfr. does it their own way and integrates the histogram calculations differently. If in manual mode the image gets darker when you close the aperture down, you are using working aperture and the histogram should change like it does with EV adjustment. If, however, the lens stays open for viewing in manual mode, the histogram wont respond to changes it doesn't perceive.

Thanks for the comments on my camera collection. I used to be an avid camera trader and then my trading buddies retired, so as I moved up to better models, I'd just keep the old ones. Then people started to give me old stuff, because they knew I had a collection.
--
Bob Ross
http://www.pbase.com/rossrtx

Hi Erik,

The time out difference for various ISOs is new to me, but I haven't read the manual. Your work around makes sense, too.

I did ask someone who knows Panasonic and was told that, the impression given was that Panasonic would make their own sensor (very unofficial). There was no info on who fabricates the E-330 from that source. The new sensor in the E-330 might be just one version in a new family, too. So, we'll have to wait on this one, for the official announcement or the next leak....
--
Bob Ross
http://www.pbase.com/rossrtx

Canon and Nikon are way ahead of everyone else in the professional market, but they have gotten far enough ahead that they have left an openning. The 4/3rds chip itself offers no advantages, it is true - but the universal lens mount is another story. We used to be able to change imaging characteristics by changing film. Wouldn't it be great to be able to do so by changing bodies in the digital age (isn't this equivalent)? The more manufacturers that enter the 4/3rds space, the bigger the potential market for lenses - and what happens to that market if Leica-branded lenses enter it, or down the road Zeiss (more likely with the announcement of the F-mount lenses)? And what if Fuji comes out with a 4/3rds body - and Kodak (who will inevitably re-emerge)? Yes, Nikon and Canon are at present out of reach for everyone else, so the attack on market share will not be head on (no new propietary lens mounts, thank heavens).

Anyway, I have 5D/20D and a dozen or more Canon lenses. Nonetheless, I would consider the 4/3rds market if it heated up, since an unlimited lens/body combination should ultimately mean the most creative freedom, no?

I wish someone would make something like this, like they make LCD hoods. It could be good quality plastic to keep it inexpensive.
--
Bob Ross
http://www.pbase.com/rossrtx

Kevin Coppalotti said:

So Sony, Kodak, Oly, Pana, KM all bottom feeding for market share
against a low end Canon and Nikon both of which have a complete
suite of lenses and accesories and a proven upgrade path.
I think there will be a bloodbath at the bottom end. Honestly,
given the risky nature of a brand new DSLR like Pana, who would buy
it?, I just cannot think of a customer profile to suit, unless they
are currently in a mental asylum and due for release on feb 26th.
The only way to entice people to buy this will be Price, a low, low
price and reading these forums there are plenty of people who love
a 'bargain'.
I just cannot see a way to make this beast 'fly'.
--
Kevin Coppalotti
http://razorsharp.smugmug.com

Click to expand...

At the bottom end, there is less interest in extensive legacy collections of lenses and accessories and a bigger familiarity with consumer brands. There is a latent frustration from all the compromises of the digicams and the coming DSLR types will offer to end that frustration. At the bottom end fast primes and tilt/shift lenses are not a priority, but user friendly systems are.

It will be fun to watch how they go after the market and maybe a useful tool for the experienced photographer will show up in the fray....
--
Bob Ross
http://www.pbase.com/rossrtx

4/3rds w/o EVF is kind of dead. I haven't seen that Oly lenses are smaller, better, or cheaper than the competition, so what's the point? However, if you can remove the mirror and move the lens closer a whole new world may open up which would revitalize (or just vitalize) the 4/3rd market.

A Sony R1 w/interchangeable lens, at a cheaper price, is what a lot of people would love.

tko said:

4/3rds w/o EVF is kind of dead. I haven't seen that Oly lenses are
smaller, better, or cheaper than the competition, so what's the
point? However, if you can remove the mirror and move the lens
closer a whole new world may open up which would revitalize (or
just vitalize) the 4/3rd market.

Click to expand...

Exactly. 4/3 outfit w/ mirror is not the team to beat.

RLR said:

Who are the real threat?
Chinese companies that many will have never heard of yet, companies
like LG, Benq, Haier to name several. In 5 - 10 these organisations
will be the powerhouses of the photography market.

Click to expand...

Who??

Look how long it has taken Samsung or Sanyo to get any sort of recognition in the market - and these guys are going to simply walk in and take over - doubt it!
--
Cameras are NOT computers!
Olympus E1 with 14-45, Nikon Coolpix 5400, Fuji Finepix A201

What's the purpose of a dSLR camera?

In my opinion it's just the bigger sensor.

This whole idea of including a swinging/flipping mirror is so much obsolete. It renders the LCD screen useless since it cannot be used as a viewfinder. It doesn't make any sense at all. Digital SLRs are for people who consider SLRs good because they have a mirror while any other camera (w/o a mirror) must be inferior.

What we need is a camera with a sensor slightly bigger than those currently used in compact cameras. No need for a mirror at all.

stdr said:

What's the purpose of a dSLR camera?

In my opinion it's just the bigger sensor.

This whole idea of including a swinging/flipping mirror is so much
obsolete. It renders the LCD screen useless since it cannot be used
as a viewfinder. It doesn't make any sense at all. Digital SLRs are
for people who consider SLRs good because they have a mirror while
any other camera (w/o a mirror) must be inferior.

What we need is a camera with a sensor slightly bigger than those
currently used in compact cameras. No need for a mirror at all.

Click to expand...

You need a mirror for the OVF....and no EVF just doesnt cut it....

You would def eat your words if you used a Leica 35mm....pure class.....

Erik37 said:

Kevin Coppalotti said:

The only way to entice people to buy this will be Price

Click to expand...

No, the EVF will offer functionality traditional DSLRs don't have.
This is the future.

As someone said, EVF will do to OVF what digital did to film.

Assuming they did a good job, being first is an advantage to
give them a good start.

Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden, F Z 5 owner
The only free lunch in photography: O I S

Click to expand...

The clarity and range is just not there with EVF, sure its ok, but if you pick use a good optical viewfinder, it dumps all over even the best EVf out there. and by a big margin..

OVF is here to stay.....

I've never used the OVF of my (admittedly quite old) digital camera. Using it fixes the angle of my shots to the hight of my body. Besides that it is almost impossible to use while wearing glasses.

BTW: There are no affordable super-zoom objectives for SLR cameras.