Is Zooming the same as getting closer?

Changing focal length does not affect perspective--full stop.
It's no different than cropping.
True; I don't mean to dispute this.

Together with what I explained, the logical consequence is that cropping, just like zooming in, must introduce telephoto compression!

My main point is that telephoto compression may sometimes be called perspective (e.g., "the characteristic perspective of a lens"), but it is not the same as perspective and it is indeed a function of FoV as commonly understood.

--
Alan Martin
 
The first article has nothing to do with photography. Rather it
deals with the use of projected images to assist in drawing.
It claims to be about drawing, but later it mentions a pinhole camera - and in fact there is really no difference. Photography is just an automated, fast, very accurate, full-colour (or full-grayscale) version of perspective drawing!

As I tried to explain, the two Wikipedia articles are not inconsistent. They are describing different phenomena.

--
Alan Martin
 
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As far as I'm concerned perspective and telephoto compression are two sides of the same coin, and neither side is affected by cropping or changing focal length. Compression occurs when you move further from the subject, thereby reducing perspective distortion and "flattening" the subject. See the animation I posted here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=16518233

That shows how compression and focal length are related, while the animations here show that they are in fact completely separate: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=16518881
 
... to change perspective without moving. Still there's something weird about it. Is should have been a pretty big mirror to achieve that shot, or just a wide view mirror with the distortions corrected with PTlens or such programs?
I dunno - give me time to reflect. ;)
Reflect some more. ;-) That shot has an AOV of around 90 degrees
and was shot with the 100/2 on the 20D. The effective location of
the shot was on the other side of an opaque wall.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
... to change perspective without moving. Still there's something
weird about it. Is should have been a pretty big mirror to achieve
that shot, or just a wide view mirror with the distortions
corrected with PTlens or such programs?
Yeah, it was a hemispherical mirror with distortions corrected by the Panorama Tools Plugins.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
As I said, there's something strangely cool to that picture. Nice.
... to change perspective without moving. Still there's something
weird about it. Is should have been a pretty big mirror to achieve
that shot, or just a wide view mirror with the distortions
corrected with PTlens or such programs?
Yeah, it was a hemispherical mirror with distortions corrected by
the Panorama Tools Plugins.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As far as I'm
concerned perspective and telephoto compression are two sides of
the same coin, and neither side is affected by cropping or changing
focal length.
I think this is mostly just a difference in terminology. I have been using "telephoto compression" to refer to the perceived "flattening" of a telephoto image as compared with the original scene, as well as the "flatness" that is perceived even without reference to the original scene or to another image. It seems that you are using "telephoto compression" just to describe the difference in perspective resulting from moving farther from the subject (as would be necessary to obtain the same framing with a longer lens).

We also disagree on the meaning of "perspective distortion". I used this term for what Wikipedia calls "perspective projection distortion", but that probably wasn't clear and Wikipedia's term is too unwieldy. It would be nice to have a completely new and unambiguous term for this - perhaps "depth distortion" would do.

BTW, did you try the demonstration I suggested toward the end of my first post? I know it's about wide-angle distortion rather than telephoto compression, but surely those are two sides of the same coin. The demonstration clearly shows that wide-angle distortion isn't just a matter of perspective, but also involves perception and viewing conditions.

--
Alan Martin
 
People confuse the eye, which is like a fixed prime lens, with the
brain, which is like a zoom lens.
This is a good analogy, but there is an important difference.

When we mentally "zoom in" on an object, the brain still takes into account the apparent size of the object (which is unchanged) when interpreting perspective as a depth cue.

But when we photographically zoom in, we don't view the print differently to compensate, so the apparent size of the object is increased. It is this change in apparent size that fools our depth perception and produces telephoto compression.

If we instead moved closer to take the photo, that would change both perspective and apparent size in a consistent way, and our depth perception would not be fooled.

Note: By "apparent size" I mean the angle subtended by the object at the eye. And by "telephoto compression" I mean distortion of perceived depth as compared with the original scene, not merely a difference in perspective as compared with another image.

--
Alan Martin
 
...actually willing to delve deeper than just the "surface" of this discussion.
Alan Martin wrote:
People confuse the eye, which is like a fixed prime lens, with the
brain, which is like a zoom lens.
This is a good analogy, but there is an important difference.
There cetainly is a difference because the analogy isn't perfect but...

While it's not quite that simple , I do believe it sheds some light on why people find this topic confusinig (Though I suspect that, even after reading my explanation, some people still won't "get it". It requires real introspection about "how" we see)

In order to shed some more light on how we "percieve" images, both in real life and in photographic reproduction consider how "portraits" work. They are generally done by "zooming" in on the subject. Even though we would seldom be close enough to a person to actually achieve the "apparant size" of the subject in a common portrait we still don't notice anything amiss. Why is that?

I beleive our brains are actually quite adept at croping and ingnoring extraneous info. Take for example looking in the mirror to check your appearance. My image in the bathroom mirror is an almost perfect portrait (from my waste to just over the top of my head). Even though there is lot of other stuff both above, below and to the sides of the mirror I completely "tune it out". In order to "reproduce" that same "image" in a portrait I would not need to move a camera so that a "normal" 50mm (full frame) image "filled" the field of view (like my mirror does). All I would need to do is "zoom in" from a little farther back, fill the field of view the perspective would look fine. It would look fine because that's the way I see myself when looking in the mirror, or looking at anyone for that matter.
 
People confuse the eye, which is like a fixed prime lens, with the
brain, which is like a zoom lens.
This is a good analogy, but there is an important difference.

Alan Martin wrote:
People confuse the eye, which is like a fixed prime lens, with the
brain, which is like a zoom lens.
This is a good analogy, but there is an important difference.
There cetainly is a difference because the analogy isn't perfect but...

While it's not quite that simple , I do believe it sheds some light on why people find this topic confusinig (Though I suspect that, even after reading my explanation, some people still won't "get it". It requires real introspection about "how" we see)

In order to shed some more light on how we "percieve" images, both in real life and in photographic reproduction consider how "portraits" work. They are generally done by "zooming" in on the subject. Even though we would seldom be close enough to a person to actually achieve the "apparant size" of the subject in a common portrait we still don't notice anything amiss. Why is that?

I beleive our brains are actually quite adept at croping and ignoring extraneous info. Take for example looking in the mirror to check your appearance. My image in the bathroom mirror is an almost perfect portrait (from my waste to just over the top of my head). Even though there is lot of other stuff both above, below and to the sides of the mirror I completely "tune it out". In order to "reproduce" that same "image" in a portrait I would not need to move a camera so that a "normal" 50mm (full frame) image "filled" the field of view (like my mirror does). All I would need to do is "zoom in" from a little farther back, fill the field of view and the perspective would look fine. It would look fine because that's the way I see myself when looking in the mirror, or looking at anyone for that matter. I mentally "zoom".
 
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As far as I'm
concerned perspective and telephoto compression are two sides of
the same coin, and neither side is affected by cropping or changing
focal length.
I think this is mostly just a difference in terminology. I have
been using "telephoto compression" to refer to the perceived
"flattening" of a telephoto image as compared with the original
scene, as well as the "flatness" that is perceived even without
reference to the original scene or to another image. It seems that
you are using "telephoto compression" just to describe the
difference in perspective resulting from moving farther from the
subject (as would be necessary to obtain the same framing with a
longer lens).

We also disagree on the meaning of "perspective distortion". I
used this term for what Wikipedia calls "perspective projection
distortion", but that probably wasn't clear and Wikipedia's term is
too unwieldy. It would be nice to have a completely new and
unambiguous term for this - perhaps "depth distortion" would do.

BTW, did you try the demonstration I suggested toward the end of my
first post? I know it's about wide-angle distortion rather than
telephoto compression, but surely those are two sides of the same
coin. The demonstration clearly shows that wide-angle distortion
isn't just a matter of perspective, but also involves perception
and viewing conditions.
I'll have to confess that I've read several of your long threads and I still haven't the foggiest notion what you're talking about. It seems like you're saying that "wide angle distortion" depends upon how close the viewer is to the photograph?

When I refer to compression and flattening, I'm talking about the effect of moving the camera/lens farther away from the subject. I believe that's the accepted terminology.

Just to be sure we're on the same page:

This first set of images shows the subject shot form close up at two different focal lengths. Because the camera is so close, there's perspective distortion. I cropped the faces and resized the wider angle pic to show that the distortion is exactly the same irrespective of focal length.



This second set of images shows the subject shot from farther away, again using two focal lenghts. This, compared to the foregoing, demonstrates compression, or flattening, and it also shows that focal length makes no difference.



Here are the uncropped images:





So that's what I'm talking about. Maybe you can refer to these pics to explain what you're talking about?
 
Are you having a bad day?
Nothing that happens on this or any other web site has any effect on my day at all, but thanks for asking.
If not, you really need to learn some tact in how you respond to others.
You mean, like using the word "Hogwash" to respond (mistakenly) to someone who actually knows what he's talking about? How tactful of you.

At this point you've made nine posts on this thread. The only one that had anything to do with the subject at hand was so idiotic that you were forced to immediately apologize (apology accepted). Aside from that, you've been correcting my French (thank you) and whining about tact (hypocritically), none of which is increasing the photographic understanding of anyone here. Whether you call that 0-for-one, or 0-for-nine, it's still a big zero.
(shaking head)
(hearing rattling)
 
...regardless technically he is correct or not.
He is.
He is on my "do not read" list from now on.
That's a real shame; judging from some of your posts you could learn a lot here. I especially like your “oops” post about the “Porsche twive” where you tell how to “get a lot back of peoples head in the picture”.

But of course, you're not reading this, are you.
 
I'll have to confess that I've read several of your long threads
and I still haven't the foggiest notion what you're talking about.
See, you should have listened when earlier I said "Save yourself some time" :)

Your understanding of the issue is correct and it's Alan who doesn't have the "foggiest notion" what he's talking about. If you try and keep up with his back-pedaling and out-of-context quotes, you'll only give yourself a headache.
 
Wikipedia has a page...
You're using Wikipedia as an authority? Now I understand how you got so confused.

Wikipedia, the so-called online encyclopedia, is described as an open source collaboration of anonymous users, and can be revised and edited in real time by any of those users.

So there's no accountability and, as might be expected, sometimes no accuracy. It's gotten so bad that now there's a site called Wikipedia Watch;

http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/

If that's too much trouble for you to read, at least take a look at the official Wikipedia disclaimer; "Wikipedia Makes No Guarantee of Validity"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer

Since they won't guarantee accuracy and won't be held accountable, why post anything from them here?
 
I will start by mentioning I don't mind gwprovost's style at all. I'm here for the facts. There are quite enough people posting very polite and courteous messages which are factually incorrect and misleading. To me, that's much more damaging than somebody's rough style. I'm trying to learn from this forum and have to constantly filter through huge numbers of messages from people who are polite, well-spoken, confident, but flat out wrong.

I suspect there may be several different levels of understanding by thread participants. There are the folks (fortunately dwindling in number) who need to go back to Geometry 101 and still think perspective is affected merely by changing focal length. Then there are the folks (like gwprovost) who know that is incorect.

But I wonder if Alan Martin is onto something more advanced. I am guessing that he agrees with gwprovost 100% and knows the obvious facts (though he may have misworded some of his responses). But when he talks about "perspective distortion" (as opposed to "perspective" itself), I think he may be bringing up a separate but interesting topic. Alan (or anybody): is the material at http://www.photo.net/learn/fisheye/ an example of what you're talking about? Are we talking about the difference between rectilinear projections and others? The phenomenon that parallel lines are not always parallel in our photos (or in our eyesight, for that matter)?

Or are you just flat our crazy? ;-)
 
Sorry I lied, I read this because you were responding my post. I won't let you to have a free shot at me. Then again nothing will surprise me.

Of course I have a lot to learn in photography. That's why I read the forum. I won't even be here if I already know everything.

And I also hope no one will ever have a typo in their post. That will be a perfect world.

You did not even try to understand what meant about back of people's head in the picture.

Fell free to read more of my past posts and challenge my ignorance and stupidity. That will certainly satisfy your huge ego even more.
He is on my "do not read" list from now on.
That's a real shame; judging from some of your posts you could
learn a lot here. I especially like your “oops” post about the
“Porsche twive” where you tell how to “get a lot back of peoples
head in the picture”.

But of course, you're not reading this, are you.
 
I suspect there may be several different levels of understanding by
thread participants. There are the folks (fortunately dwindling in
number) who need to go back to Geometry 101 and still think
perspective is affected merely by changing focal length. Then
there are the folks (like gwprovost) who know that is incorect.
I'm not convinced that serious misconceptions are this widespread. I think most of the people who would agree with the statement "perspective is affected by changing focal length" would understand it to mean either that depth distortion is affected by focal length (i.e., what I have said), or that perspective is affected indirectly via changing distance to maintain the same framing.

Don't attribute to misunderstanding what is adequately explained by miscommunication!
But when he talks about "perspective distortion" (as opposed to
"perspective" itself), I think he may be bringing up a separate but
interesting topic.
That was the intent. And it's why I'm now using the term "depth distortion" to make it clear that it is not the same as perspective. (It is related, though, and what relates the two phenomena is the way perspective is used together with apparent size as a depth cue.)
Alan (or anybody): is the material at
http://www.photo.net/learn/fisheye/ an example of what you're
talking about? Are we talking about the difference between
rectilinear projections and others?
No, I've been talking about rectilinear projection only - fisheye lenses add an entirely new element. Other projections (whether produced by a lens or simulated by reprojection) can change the appearance of distortion and possibly make it less noticeable, but of course they can't change perspective. They also can't eliminate all of the distortion.

What Bob Atkins calls "correcting for perspective" actually simulates a shift on a tilt/shift lens. It corrects for converging verticals, which can be a particularly disconcerting form of distortion even in small amounts.
The phenomenon that parallel lines are not always parallel in
our photos (or in our eyesight, for that matter)?
Parallel lines in the scene are parallel in a rectilinear image only if they are also parallel to the plane onto which the image is projected. In a non-rectilinear image, they aren't even straight lines.

In our eyesight, it is a matter of perception. (Of course there are no straight lines in the projected image, because the retina is curved.) To the extent that we perceive the world in 3-D, we can correctly identify parallel lines even when we see them at an angle. But it is quite common to see parallel lines as not parallel because of not having enough depth information (or deliberately ignoring it).

Neither is exactly what I described, although I did talk about perspective and perception.

--
Alan Martin
 

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