F707 flash WB problems, etc.

Andy said:

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

Click to expand...

Andy said:

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.

Click to expand...

Andy58717 said:

Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

Click to expand...

Member said:

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

Click to expand...

Andy said:

Andy58717 said:

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Turtle Tamer said:

Did you use the white card option when using manual flash?

My 707 is on order, but since the problem is correctable in
Photoshop, I'm not overly worried. Like you, most of my shots will
not involve the flash.

I look forward to your findings all the same.

Regards

George

Andy said:

Member said:

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Andy said:

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

Click to expand...

Jeff said:

Andy:

There are 2 light sources when doing slow sync flash works. One is
the environment light, the other is the flash. The flash has a WB
quite near the day light, while the environment light may vary. The
camera can only measure the WB of the environment light , it has no
idea what the color tempreture of the COMBINATION of the two light
sources may be. Assume we are taking pictures indoor , and the
light source is quite warm ( which is a typical situation) , the WB
of the comination of all light sources may vary from the WB of
indoor(when room lighting is dominating ) to day light(when flash
is the dominating light source ). If the latter is the case , we
will get cooler result(blueish ) than we like , since the camera
THOUGHT the light out there is warmer .

As for the test you've done , it might be that
1. the camera tries to read the WB of the room lighting ,
2. since the room is complete dark , the reading varies.
3. the camera tries to correct the image according to the WB
reading it got .
4. since the raw images it records are all the same , different WB
readings lead to different results.

I suggest that you repeat the experiment with the WB set to day
light(or out door ) to see what happens.

Click to expand...

Jeff said:

There are 2 light sources when doing slow sync flash works. One is
the environment light, the other is the flash. The flash has a WB
quite near the day light, while the environment light may vary. The
camera can only measure the WB of the environment light , it has no
idea what the color tempreture of the COMBINATION of the two light
sources may be. Assume we are taking pictures indoor , and the
light source is quite warm ( which is a typical situation) , the WB
of the comination of all light sources may vary from the WB of
indoor(when room lighting is dominating ) to day light(when flash
is the dominating light source ). If the latter is the case , we
will get cooler result(blueish ) than we like , since the camera
THOUGHT the light out there is warmer .

As for the test you've done , it might be that
1. the camera tries to read the WB of the room lighting ,
2. since the room is complete dark , the reading varies.
3. the camera tries to correct the image according to the WB
reading it got .
4. since the raw images it records are all the same , different WB
readings lead to different results.

I suggest that you repeat the experiment with the WB set to day
light(or out door ) to see what happens.

Just my thoughts.
Jeff .

Andy said:

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Turtle Tamer said:

Did you use the white card option when using manual flash?

My 707 is on order, but since the problem is correctable in
Photoshop, I'm not overly worried. Like you, most of my shots will
not involve the flash.

I look forward to your findings all the same.

Regards

George

Andy said:

Member said:

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Andy said:

The target for my test shots was the corner of a room with a
(almost) white wall and a (almost) white closet door. I will post
the pictures in a few minutes under a new thread.
In the test shots, most of them have good white balance (maybe
20-25% bad). I am not happy about this mostly as a matter of
principle. However, a picture with the WB off sure beats an out of
focus picture!

Best regards,

Andy

Turtle Tamer said:

Did you use the white card option when using manual flash?

My 707 is on order, but since the problem is correctable in
Photoshop, I'm not overly worried. Like you, most of my shots will
not involve the flash.

I look forward to your findings all the same.

Regards

George

Andy said:

Andy58717 said:

Andy, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you took
multiple pictures using the same setup each time and you obtained
varying results? This doesn't make any sense. You should be getting
identical ( or quasi identical ) results each time and if you don't,
you should return the camera immediately or or have it serviced.
This is very abnormal behaviour.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Andy said:

Here are some preliminary test results for the white balance problem:
To eliminate as many variables as possible, I tested under the
following conditions:
1) The F707 was mounted on a tripod and a remote control was used.
2) The room was completely dark.
3) Manual mode was used with f2 and 1/40.
4) Only the internal flash was used.
5) WB was set to auto
The results:
After taking several shots with the same settings, some had correct
white balance and some had a pronounced cyan cast (or you could
think of it as a lack of red). The F707 (as well as other recent
Sony digicams) supposed to use a preset WB for flash and ignore the
WB setting. If you set the WB before a flash picture to preset,
indoor, or outdoor and look at the EXIF later, it always shows auto
WB.
Some additional thoughts:
1) This appears to be a firmware bug. However, I don't want to jump
to conclusions. I will do some more testing tonight.
2) All recent Sony digicams use a flash memory for their firmware.
This means the firmware is upgradeable although I wouldn't know
their methodology (i.e. user upgradeable or service center only).
3) Any picture with a cyan cast can be very easily fixed. Simply
turn up the red in Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc. Try it with one
of Bryan's samples.
4) Flash photography is just not a strong point of the F707 anyway.
Take a look at the HVL-F1000 (which is your only choice for an
external flash). It's really not a very good system.
BTW, the flash level was set to maximum (I tried all 3 settings)
for the pictures that showed the greatest variations of WB. In
examining the RGB values of a white wall, only the red changes
significantly from picture to picture. This means there is little
(if any) variation of the flash intensity. Also, I have not tried
red eye reduction flash yet.

Regarding the WB calibration:
There is calibration data stored in an EEPROM (re-writeable) memory
for many parameters including the WB. There is a specific area for
flash WB data. A special jig called a "flash adjustment box" is
used for this calibration. However, even if the calibration data
was somehow incorrect, it wouldn't explain the variations in the WB
when the flash is used. That is why I believe that a firmware bug
may be causing this problem.
I am not happy about this problem and I sincerely hope Sony will
address it. However, this problem can only happen when the flash is
used. For anybody that does post-processing of their pictures using
Photoshop, etc., WB is easily corrected. This is at least some
consolation. If you had a digicam with focus problems for example,
that would be far worse because that cannot be corrected.

Click to expand...