Quiz about pixel density and sensor sizes

Lee Jay

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Compare two cameras that are otherwise pretty much identical - the 20D and the 5D. The 20D has higher pixel densty (6.4 micron pixels versus 8.2 micron pixels). At the same 8.2MP, the 20D is 1.6 crop and the 5D is 1.25 crop.

Now the quiz. Why is the 20D better (more useful) for long-reach applications than the 5D?

Hint: the answer is not as obvious as it seems.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Compare two cameras that are otherwise pretty much identical - the
20D and the 5D. The 20D has higher pixel densty (6.4 micron pixels
versus 8.2 micron pixels). At the same 8.2MP, the 20D is 1.6 crop
and the 5D is 1.25 crop.

Now the quiz. Why is the 20D better (more useful) for long-reach
applications than the 5D?
The weight of the lens required to achieve a given focal length and relative aperture is smaller.

So while the 20D needs only a 200mm F/2.8, the 1.25 crop 5D needs a 260mm F/2.8 for the same shutter speed and gets a shallower DoF, or a 260mm F/3.9 for the same DoF and then eats a slower shutter speed.
--
Mitch
 
So while the 20D needs only a 200mm F/2.8, the 1.25 crop 5D needs a
260mm F/2.8 for the same shutter speed and gets a shallower DoF, or
a 260mm F/3.9 for the same DoF and then eats a slower shutter speed.
But the larger pixels make the sensor inherantly lower noise so I can increase the ISO to compensate and get my shutter speed back.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Simple - take a 1.6x crop out of a 5D image and you get a smaller image than a 20D one.

In fact, you also get a slightly smaller image than a 10D one, which is why I'm keeping my 10D for long lens work ;-)

--
KRs
Chris

My meagre efforts are at http://www.dslr.co.uk
 
Simple - take a 1.6x crop out of a 5D image and you get a smaller
image than a 20D one.
If it was that simple, I wouldn't have given you the hint!

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
... at long shots because with the money saved vs. the 5D, I can buy a longer lens....;-)

Seriously, with my current state of understanding, smaller pixel pitch will always beat a larger pixel pitch at long shots AS LONG AS capture quality (Noise and DR) is comparable at pixel level.

This is of course very obvious, so I suspect you have a very novel reason why the 5D might be better. I look forward to being enlightened.

--
Liquidstone
http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/top25

 
..are less with the larger sensor. That's my guess why the smaller sensor is better for telephoto.
--
Eric Sorensen
Bossier City, Louisiana
http://www.pbase.com/ericsorensen
 
... at long shots because with the money saved vs. the 5D, I can
buy a longer lens....;-)
Hey! That's even more true than what I thought was the real answer!

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
This is of course very obvious, so I suspect you have a very novel
reason why the 5D might be better. I look forward to being
enlightened.
No, the 20D is better as I stated in my question. But why?

If no one starts to get close, I'll provide some hints.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
You will always have longer reach with the 20D?

(Pick the longest lens on the 5D, it will be even longer on the 20D; hence proved -- my adaptation of the infinite primes proof :))
 
The 20D has, by comparison to the 5D, essentially a 1.28x TC built-in because of its smaller pixel pitch. So that means, if I put a 1.28x TC (if it existed) on the 5D, they'd equal out.

Before you say anything about sharpness, let me tell you the main reason TCs have a reputation for degrading image quality.

If you have a lens capable of 100lp/mm at 50% MTF and you install a 1.4x TC, the TC magnifies that image effectively reducing the lens to 71lp/mm at the sensor but at 1.4x the magnification. Likewise, a 2x would reduce it to 50lp/mm with twice the magnification.

Now the sensor has a certain pixel density and the final sharpness is related to both the MTF of the lens and the resolution of the sensor. A sensor with higher pixel density ends up requiring a lens with higher lp/mm at the same MTF to be just as sharp at the pixel level. So the built-in 1.28x "TC" of the 20D stresses the lens at the pixel level just as much as a real 1.28x TC would on the same lens the 5D. In other words, the 5D's larger pixels make it effectively sharper at the pixel level with the same lens and a TC that equalizes out the pixel pitch will equalize the sharpness at the pixel level and equalize the effective reach.

So all is equal, right? Nope! The 20D is still better.

Did that help?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Ok, I'm a bit out of depth on TCs here.. I need to process some more ..
 
on this, while we're on the subject of system resolution (sensor/AA
filter and lens resolution).

I think I have accidentally shown that the Sigmonster at 800 f/9
outresolves my 350D sensor. If this is correct, then adding a TC
will result into a net gain in system resolution for the 350D +
Sigmonster. Comments?
I'd be completely shocked if the Sigmonster did NOT out-resolve your sensor at f9.

Nearly every lens can resolve more on our current sensors with a TC than without. Here's my 70-200 2.8L IS:



--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Forget about the availability of equipment.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Compare two cameras that are otherwise pretty much identical - the
20D and the 5D. The 20D has higher pixel densty (6.4 micron pixels
versus 8.2 micron pixels). At the same 8.2MP, the 20D is 1.6 crop
and the 5D is 1.25 crop.

Now the quiz. Why is the 20D better (more useful) for long-reach
applications than the 5D?

Hint: the answer is not as obvious as it seems.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
that this drives me crazy LOL. I'll follow along and hopefully understand it better at the end of the thread than now (whenever I feel I have a handle on it--there's always another thread about it that is a bit confusing).
--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
 
OK, given my disclaimer about TC knowledge (or lack of) ...

TC's will make your lens the corresponding f-stop slower (1.4X=1 stop); so you either open up losing depth of field or you increase shutter speed making you more vulnerable to camera shake?
 

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