A clean 8mp 1 1/8 sensor is possible...

Simon Joinson said:

Trouble is, i can't see panasonic camera being in a position to buy
sensors from anyone but panasonic semiconductor can you!?! Might be
a bit of an admission that a certain arch-rival (S* Y) produces
better sensors!

Click to expand...

I realize it probably won't happen, but I don't consider it impossible, or even unreasonable. Canon used to make their own sensors, and even had some pride in certain advantages theirs had using CYGM filter arrays, etc. Switching to Sony's sensors certainly hasn't hurt them. But I understand that political issues within Matsushita might prevent that.

But if they can't swallow their pride and buy a better sensor, I sure hope they can step up to the plate and make one. I think their otherwise excellent cameras are being held back by the current ones.

Darin Cline said:

Simon Joinson said:

Trouble is, i can't see panasonic camera being in a position to buy
sensors from anyone but panasonic semiconductor can you!?! Might be
a bit of an admission that a certain arch-rival (S* Y) produces
better sensors!

Click to expand...

I realize it probably won't happen, but I don't consider it
impossible, or even unreasonable. Canon used to make their own
sensors, and even had some pride in certain advantages theirs had
using CYGM filter arrays, etc. Switching to Sony's sensors
certainly hasn't hurt them. But I understand that political issues
within Matsushita might prevent that.

But if they can't swallow their pride and buy a better sensor, I
sure hope they can step up to the plate and make one. I think
their otherwise excellent cameras are being held back by the
current ones.

Click to expand...

Part of the problem as I see it is the fact that so much of camera development is driven by marketing people, not engineers. For every dpreview reader there are countless less well-informed buyers who don't know about noise, dynamic range, sensitivity, resolution and so on. What they do know about (sort of) is pixels - and the more there are the 'better' the camera is. I like the LX1's 16:9 aspect ratio, but I would've been quite happy with, say, 6MP and very clean results. Even Fuji - who got great critical acclaim for the F10's 6MP sensor - have rejoined the megapixel race, meaning the best new sensor we've seen in a compact for years will be dead and gone when the F10/F11 reaches the end of its production cycle. Sigh.
S
--
Simon Joinson, dpreview.com

Simon Joinson said:

Part of the problem as I see it is the fact that so much of camera
development is driven by marketing people, not engineers.

Click to expand...

snip

Simon Joinson said:

Even Fuji - who got great critical acclaim for the
F10's 6MP sensor - have rejoined the megapixel race, meaning the
best new sensor we've seen in a compact for years will be dead and
gone when the F10/F11 reaches the end of its production cycle. Sigh.

Click to expand...

I was looking through a photography magazine the other day (don't remember which one) and saw a Fuji ad comparing their high ISO performance of the F10/11 to other cameras. They showed a typical flash picture in a social setting with harsh shadows, washed out color and the background dark, and then a picture taken with their camera without flash showing more natural colors and even exposure. Looks to me like the marketing monkeys can push this feature if they so choose.

if matsushita wants to be stubborn it's to their own loss. i don't understand why they can't swallow pride and buy sensors somewhere until they figure out how to do it. see, nobody knows exactly where some other manfuacturers are getting their sensors. do we know with 100% where nikon got sensors for D200? they can also keep secrets about their sources.

i also wanted to buy LX1 and independent of this review decided not to buy it, as I felt the issue with noise was not just related to minimal noise reduction, but to inherently noisy sensor.

how many sales does panasonic need to lose to wake up and starts outsourcing sensors?

Simon Joinson said:

Part of the problem as I see it is the fact that so much of camera
development is driven by marketing people, not engineers. For every
dpreview reader there are countless less well-informed buyers who
don't know about noise, dynamic range, sensitivity, resolution and
so on. What they do know about (sort of) is pixels - and the more
there are the 'better' the camera is.

Click to expand...

I understand. But that's just ineptitude in marketing. Relying solely on "more pixels is better" is just plain lazy, when they could and should be trying to market something that could differentiate themselves. Based on Tom's response, maybe some are working on that.

Regardless, I think the "pixel count is paramount" days are numbered. The digital camera market has matured to the point where the percentage of first time buyers is dwindling. Many of the same buyers who don't know anything about noise, dynamic range, sensitivity, etc., are also the same people who already have a digital camera, but take pictures at less than the full resolution of the camera because the imageas are just too large... they don't want to have to bother down-sizing them to share with their friends, they don't want to have to buy extra memory cards to hold them, and the resolution is high enough that they don't always notice a major penalty for capturing in the smaller sizes (in fact, doing so hides some of the short comings of their pictures). At some point, these people are going to wake up and realize they don't need to upgrade to a newer, better model for a higher resolution they won't take advantage of anyway. The marketing folks are going to HAVE to learn how to market other attributes of their products.

Hopefully some other aspects of image quality will start to get more focus. Obviously, many of the average consumers may not really know what to look for or even notice the difference, but if marketed well, then can be shown what to look for, or at least led to believe that these other aspects are important.

Simon Joinson said:

Part of the problem as I see it is the fact that so much of camera
development is driven by marketing people, not engineers. For every
dpreview reader there are countless less well-informed buyers who
don't know about noise, dynamic range, sensitivity, resolution and
so on. What they do know about (sort of) is pixels - and the more
there are the 'better' the camera is. I like the LX1's 16:9 aspect
ratio, but I would've been quite happy with, say, 6MP and very
clean results. Even Fuji - who got great critical acclaim for the
F10's 6MP sensor - have rejoined the megapixel race, meaning the
best new sensor we've seen in a compact for years will be dead and
gone when the F10/F11 reaches the end of its production cycle. Sigh.
S
--

Click to expand...

I presently use a 5mp camera that's a 4/3. If I crop to a 16:9 ratio, I'm probably left with a 3 to 3.5mp image. The other option is to shoot stitched panos all the time even when I only want a slightly wider shot than "normal"...and that'a a pain. Panasonic didn't have to cram 8mp onto the LX1 sensor. Six would have yielded less noise and would still have had more resolution than my cropped 5mp shots presently do. I'm really sick and tired of the megapixel race. Marketing people seem to think that average folks are dumb...and they're not. I'm really starting to wonder if all these shenanigans are just a way to keep people buying cams. The name of the game is to always slightly cripple your camera offering. Don't do it too much that people can't imagine that it's an upgrade, but do it enough that they'll feel compelled to upgrade to the model after this one. It's called market churn...and I'm getting tired of it. It is frustrating to see a cam like the LX1...it's so close it drives you nuts. My only solution to this churn phenomenon is to wait until the camera is priced accordingly for the "warts" the manufacturers have induced/needlessly created for it.

Ceci
--
My photo gallery:
http://ceciland.smugmug.com/Photography

It's like a game of cards.

Most people think the camera companies draw from a deck a hand of cards and they give us the best card.
Actually they draw a hand from the deck and give us the whole hand.
some hands are stronger than others.

Matsushita has the technology but with their upcoming DSLR and subsequent lens sales they don't have the motivation. They all play the same game.
Harlan

Ceci Land said:

Ceci Land said:

Part of the problem as I see it is the fact that so much of camera
development is driven by marketing people, not engineers. For every
dpreview reader there are countless less well-informed buyers who
don't know about noise, dynamic range, sensitivity, resolution and
so on. What they do know about (sort of) is pixels - and the more
there are the 'better' the camera is. I like the LX1's 16:9 aspect
ratio, but I would've been quite happy with, say, 6MP and very
clean results. Even Fuji - who got great critical acclaim for the
F10's 6MP sensor - have rejoined the megapixel race, meaning the
best new sensor we've seen in a compact for years will be dead and
gone when the F10/F11 reaches the end of its production cycle. Sigh.
S
--

Click to expand...

I presently use a 5mp camera that's a 4/3. If I crop to a 16:9
ratio, I'm probably left with a 3 to 3.5mp image. The other option
is to shoot stitched panos all the time even when I only want a
slightly wider shot than "normal"...and that'a a pain. Panasonic
didn't have to cram 8mp onto the LX1 sensor. Six would have
yielded less noise and would still have had more resolution than
my cropped 5mp shots presently do. I'm really sick and tired of
the megapixel race. Marketing people seem to think that average
folks are dumb...and they're not. I'm really starting to wonder if
all these shenanigans are just a way to keep people buying cams.
The name of the game is to always slightly cripple your camera
offering. Don't do it too much that people can't imagine that it's
an upgrade, but do it enough that they'll feel compelled to upgrade
to the model after this one. It's called market churn...and I'm
getting tired of it. It is frustrating to see a cam like the
LX1...it's so close it drives you nuts. My only solution to this
churn phenomenon is to wait until the camera is priced accordingly
for the "warts" the manufacturers have induced/needlessly created
for it.

Ceci
--
My photo gallery:
http://ceciland.smugmug.com/Photography

Click to expand...

--
192 positive comments on pbase galleries
http://www.pbase.com/harlanjs

Darin Cline said:

Simon Joinson said:

Trouble is, i can't see panasonic camera being in a position to buy
sensors from anyone but panasonic semiconductor can you!?! Might be
a bit of an admission that a certain arch-rival (S* Y) produces
better sensors!

Click to expand...

I realize it probably won't happen, but I don't consider it
impossible, or even unreasonable. Canon used to make their own
sensors, and even had some pride in certain advantages theirs had
using CYGM filter arrays, etc. Switching to Sony's sensors
certainly hasn't hurt them. But I understand that political issues
within Matsushita might prevent that.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is enough to explain why it wouldn't happen.

But another factor is economics. Canon can charge a lot for their
cameras due to their strong brand. People will buy, whether the
camera is good or not so good (eg. S1 IS). So they can afford to
buy the sensor.

I think Panasonic saves money from using their own sensors
instead. This makes it possible for them to compete on value,
something they have to do since their brand isn't so strong in
still cameras yet. (Sure the LX1 might not be such good value
but it amazes me how cheaply the FZ5 can be had.) Selling many
good cameras at low price helps with market penetration, a
strategy for making profit in the long term.

Of course, if the sensors aren't good enough, it would be a
way to strengthen the brand after all. I wonder what went
wrong with their 8 MP sensors, the LX1's in particular. I felt
the FZ5, while far from clean, did compare allright with the
other super zooms in the noise aspect (if anyone trusts my
judgement now after my mistake higher up in this thread. .

Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden
F Z 5, now with up to 16x zoom ;-)

Erik37 said:

I wonder what went
wrong with their 8 MP sensors, the LX1's in particular. I felt
the FZ5, while far from clean, did compare allright with the
other super zooms in the noise aspect

Click to expand...

I wonder too. I agree that the FZ5 is a great value. While it may have more noise than some of it's competition, it's a small difference that, IMO, is easily outweighed by the FZ5's strengths. I haven't looked at the FZ30 pics with much scrutiny, so I can't comment on it, but the LX1 seems to have crossed a line where the noise is so severe that it's pluses (as big as they are), aren't enough to allow me to overlook it. With the FZ5, it seems like something you'd really only notice if looking for it, while on the LX1, it's big enough that it limits the camera to only being good under certain conditions. Even the little FX9 has less noise.

Anyway, whatever the reason, I'm glad to hear that Panasonic is aware of it. Hoefully the next version will be much improved.

Or how about this metaphor/analogy? It's like that shell game you can never win. We all know the kind of camera technology should allow manufacturers to make. They imply that they have, you just have to find it amdst the marketing speak. So you look and look and look...picking the likely shell each time because you've been watching the technology develop. You're reasonable...right? Little do you know, they've taken the pea off the table completely. They'll never let you have everything they're capable of delivering. On top of that, they'll cripple what ever they do deliver...just enough to make you want more, but hopefully not enough that you'll recognize you're being had. I'm afraid that it's now become obvious that the game is rigged.

Ceci (who's all of a sudden feeling angry...quick, someone tell me I'm delusional...waitaminute...do I really want that?)
--
My photo gallery:
http://ceciland.smugmug.com/Photography

Aren't we thinking extremely short termed? If the FZ30 had the Fuji 6 mp sensor or something similar, a FZ30 would be on my desk in this very moment, so I would love to see a less noisy sensors in the Lumix series. BUT I can't help admire Panasonic for taking up the battle, and eventually not to bow to the market leader. One does not 'just' sit down a produce the best sesnor on the market. It takes several generations, and eventually, one might get it right. 40 years ago, Japanese optics were cheap counterfeits of established European manufacturers. Rome wasn't built in a day.

As Erik pointed out, Sony and Panay are competitors, therefore, as long as Sony can set the price on the sensors Panasonic won't be able to challenge Sony. So Pany's stubbornness to use and develop sensors in-house, can be seen as a serious commitment to the DSC market. They want to become a serious player in the market.

If everyone would give in like Canon, we would eventually reach the same mono- or duopoly situation that we have on the PC CPU market, with only two 'real' players. Would that be good for competition, prices, and deveolpment?

I know this no comfort for us right now, but sometimes we have to broaden our horizon.

--

Wow...I ranted a bit earlier in this thread. Your post stops me in my tracks. Thanks for the perspective.

Ceci
--
My photo gallery:
http://ceciland.smugmug.com/Photography

One glitch at Sony and 6 camera companies are sending out service advisories. Coming back to the S80, this does have NR, but it is very good. If you look at the road texture in the bus photo, you will see that as it goes into the distance it gets wiped out as noise. In the intermediate regions you see smooth bits with the odd hole that exceeds the noise threshold (typical NR artefact). This shows just how much NR is being applied. The fact that is is not normally noticeable is a credit to Canon. Panny's NR is lousy by comparison. That's not such a bad thing with the FZ30 because it's aimed at more serious photographers, most of whom won't mind doing a bit of PP. But it's bad news for the LX1. The Canon sensor/readout electronics are also better. It has a lower minimum ISO and better high ISO capabilities. This is probably due to lower dark current or readout noise. As I said earlier, it's nice to see that there is still room for a little improvement in the small sensor.

mrfitz said:

Panasonic are Matsushita...the worlds largest electroinics group!
There is no way on earth they would buy sensors fron another
company!

Click to expand...

so....

have them buy sony! the company, sony. buy them out.



and then they can 'turn sony around' (spank the bad child for being naughty, re: mem stick, ATRAC/minidisc, and DRM/rootkit madness) and then take their sensor tech, dump their cameras (keeping only the parts that help improve on pany stuff) and be done with it.

ah, yes, a nice dream...

--
bryan ( http://www.grateful.net ) pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ,
(sample fz30 raw files: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

IMO, Pany had to sacrifice the electronics quality to be competitive. Having may be best lens on prosumer cameras market with IS, costs money. To make price compatible with other camera from the same class they had to spend less money on the other elements of the camera (CCD, electronics, etc.. -> final image processing quality). That's why we have to debate this again and again. Lumix is great on the features and lens, but not that great on keeping that high image quality coming from lens through complete image processing cycle.
--
Michael
http://www.pbase.com/michaelsv

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying but Panasonic is but a small division of the Giant electronics company Matsushita. It is my understanding that at one time video imaging devices could not have been made without core video imaging components that Matsushita invented and incorporated in them.

Matsushita is quite capable of making great sensors. They are just packing them with too many megapixels. Harlan

GregGory said:

Aren't we thinking extremely short termed? If the FZ30 had the Fuji
6 mp sensor or something similar, a FZ30 would be on my desk in
this very moment, so I would love to see a less noisy sensors in
the Lumix series. BUT I can't help admire Panasonic for taking up
the battle, and eventually not to bow to the market leader. One
does not 'just' sit down a produce the best sesnor on the market.
It takes several generations, and eventually, one might get it
right. 40 years ago, Japanese optics were cheap counterfeits of
established European manufacturers. Rome wasn't built in a day.

As Erik pointed out, Sony and Panay are competitors, therefore, as
long as Sony can set the price on the sensors Panasonic won't be
able to challenge Sony. So Pany's stubbornness to use and develop
sensors in-house, can be seen as a serious commitment to the DSC
market. They want to become a serious player in the market.

If everyone would give in like Canon, we would eventually reach the
same mono- or duopoly situation that we have on the PC CPU market,
with only two 'real' players. Would that be good for competition,
prices, and deveolpment?

I know this no comfort for us right now, but sometimes we have to
broaden our horizon.

--

Click to expand...

--
192 positive comments on pbase galleries
http://www.pbase.com/harlanjs

With all the "gadgetry" you have created on this forum, I'm surprised you haven't "ripped" a sensor out of the s80 and transplanted it into the FZ30. Now that would be an incredible creation. It's alive... it's alive bwahahahaha! ;^}
--



Regards,
Kirwin
http://timebandit.smugmug.com

Harlan Saperstein said:

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying but Panasonic is but a
small division of the Giant electronics company Matsushita. It is
my understanding that at one time video imaging devices could not
have been made without core video imaging components that
Matsushita invented and incorporated in them.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what YOU are saying, lol!

Harlan Saperstein said:

Matsushita is quite capable of making great sensors. They are just
packing them with too many megapixels. Harlan

Click to expand...

I tend to disagree. I know that you have the FZ15 the 'clean machine' but too me, it seems that basically ALL Matsushita sensors are 'noisy' (compared to the market leaders anno 2005), and therefore Pany reasons that they can just as well pack these sensors with a few extra mp. They don't add that much extra noise, but the marketing department will be pleased. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=15805038 See for yourself. Reducing the resolution by 20% doesn't necessarily solve the noise issue.

Pany will work it out, but when I don't know.

--

In the next 2-3 years:

1) The megapixel race will be over. The market will settle in on 8-12mp. Larger mp sensors will only be used on very high end professional equipment.

2) The noise problem will be solved not only by Panasonic but the other manufacturers as well.
3) The sensors will be able to handle ISO of 1600 with little noise.

4) The image processors or engines will become much faster with better algorithms to produce better images.

5) Lag time will be reduced so that it will be less than a mirror flipping down on a current DSLR.
6) EVF/LCD display times will be reduced.
7) Exposure technologies will be improved to make it foolproof.

8) Autofocus technologies will be improved so that capturing the fastest jet is easy.
9) Manufacturing costs will drop but camera prices will remain steady.

10) The digicam will become the dominant camera in use by professionals as the DSLR becomes less preferable.

11) The quality and speed of the lens and IS will become the main competitve factor among manufacturers.

12) There will be less companies manufacturing digital cameras and more industry consolidations as demand slows.

13) Panasonic will become a major player as the digital camera is an integral part of their HDTV/Home Entertainment strategy.

14) We will look back at our FZ 1,2,3,5,10,15,20,30s as the cameras developed on the way to the "perfect" digital camera leading to the end of the DSLR.
--
Neil

Neil McKenzie said:

In the next 2-3 years:

1) The megapixel race will be over. The market will settle in on
8-12mp. Larger mp sensors will only be used on very high end
professional equipment.
2) The noise problem will be solved not only by Panasonic but the
other manufacturers as well.
3) The sensors will be able to handle ISO of 1600 with little noise.

Click to expand...

If you talk small sensors at 8-12 MP, I wonder if that is physically possible.
You can't get rid of photon noise. And the difference between the
FZ30 sensor and the S9500 one is much smaller than what people
are led to believe. I think they are close to hitting the ceiling already.

What we might see is advanced denoise programs taylored for
the specific noise characteristecs of a certain sensor, built in
the software that is bundled with the camera. Perhaps with an
automated option do denoise pictures simultaneously when they
are downloaded into the computer (or even when fed to the printer!).

What might be possible to improve more is dynamic range, by making
the sensor "deeper", less prone to saturate.

Neil McKenzie said:

4) The image processors or engines will become much faster with
better algorithms to produce better images.

Click to expand...

Yes, but power usage, heat dissipation and available size sets limits
so I wonder how fast this development can go. What could be done
also is making the processors smarter, more specialsed to the task,
but I beleive this is already taken quite far in most successful cameras.
Venus Enging II, DiGiC, etc.

Neil McKenzie said:

5) Lag time will be reduced so that it will be less than a mirror
flipping down on a current DSLR.

Click to expand...

Excluding AF, it is already much much shorter on the FZ30 than
typical DSLRs. Because of the mirror.

Neil McKenzie said:

6) EVF/LCD display times will be reduced.

Click to expand...

Yes, and when that happens we can drop the mirror.

Neil McKenzie said:

7) Exposure technologies will be improved to make it foolproof.
8) Autofocus technologies will be improved so that capturing the
fastest jet is easy.
9) Manufacturing costs will drop but camera prices will remain steady.

Click to expand...

Disagree, I expect to see more good picture quality but functionally
stripped down cameras by the big corporations for cheap prices, to
replace those cheap compact film cameras that has been available for
years.

DSLR and lens prices will drop when Panasonic and Sony (and Samsung)
are going to carve themselves a niche out of the tough DSLR market.

Neil McKenzie said:

10) The digicam will become the dominant camera in use by
professionals as the DSLR becomes less preferable.

Click to expand...

The mirror will go, but lens change flexibility will stay. That's not a
digicam in my vocabulary, nor is it a DSLR literally speaking. Maybe
that's what you mean.

Neil McKenzie said:

11) The quality and speed of the lens and IS will become the main
competitve factor among manufacturers.

Click to expand...

Because of patent issues you mean? I think camera software is an
area where manufacturers can offer different feel, different solutions,
thus making their cameras special.

Unfortunately, I think ads will be the main competitive factor. :-(

Neil McKenzie said:

12) There will be less companies manufacturing digital cameras and
more industry consolidations as demand slows.

Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately.

Neil McKenzie said:

13) Panasonic will become a major player as the digital camera is
an integral part of their HDTV/Home Entertainment strategy.

Click to expand...

Yes, one of a handful. Although saying so will no doubt upset
the C and N camp.

Neil McKenzie said:

14) We will look back at our FZ 1,2,3,5,10,15,20,30s as the cameras
developed on the way to the "perfect" digital camera leading to the
end of the DSLR.

Click to expand...

And the advent of the DSL(EVF).

Just my two öre
Erik from Sweden