A lesson WELL learned ..

I agree with you LeeBase, but there is another part to this story.

Long story short, I took a paycut earlier this year, lost some benefits, get zero overtime, and they want me to now volunteer my free time to helping them out? Under this situation, am I being selfish for not wanting to help them out? Don't get me wrong, I still do some shots every now and then for them, as long as it's on THEIR time.

By the way, I still give my friends free photos and prints. I just got done doing my best friend's engagement photos, and he and the bride to be wanted to pay me for it. I turned down the money since I did it out of the goodness of my heart, not to line my pocket. I also regularly give them prints that I charge others for. I got into photography because I enjoy it, not to make a killing off of everybody I know. I WOULD like to eventually make some return on it, but I'm realistic. Or, as I have a tendancy of saying... I may be crazy, but I'm not dumb!

Have a good weekend.

LeeBase said:

Or so lots of people think. Everyone can take a
photograph....everyone has a camera. What they see in you is "some
guy who's better than most" -- but they aren't WANTING
"professional photography".

And really....to do headshots of new employees does not take a
"real photographer".

I used to not understand why my friend -- who's are real pro --
never brought his camera to church events....never brought his
camera to weddings of friends in the church. He kept his
profession away from his personal life.

Me....I take my camera everywhere -- I'm the "guy with camera" that
gets asked to take pictures whenever there's a need for "guy with
camera". And I enjoy it.

Then I transitioned into "weekend pro" and for a time became very
unhappy to be "guy with camera" as people "would not buy photos".
I eventually got over it and went back to being "guy with camera"
which is something I enjoy.

Oh -- I get paid....but for weddings and senior portraits and
family portraits...and it's my "guy with camera" work that has led
to those paying gigs.

I like where I'm at now -- being able to enjoy being "guy with
camera" -- and not thinking every time I shoot a photo, I need to
be paid for it.

Lee

Click to expand...

I agree, I used to always stay back and help out after work, or work 80 hours a week for 6 weeks solid during shutdowns, all because they "needed" me to do so. Now I just wont, as I never got paid over time (was on a flat rate), never got the promised bonus (the excuse always we were over budget, and that would always be "our" fault yet the boss managed to buy a new $80 000 car) and went 7 years without a payrise. I did not worry about the pay rise as the company in question lets me go to uni and come back to work whenever and I lived in a flat rent free for 2 years (the compny owned it) so felt a payrise not necessary, but the I hate broken promises and carrots you never get to eat. Over time you start to resent the people you work so hard for. If people can they will rip you, no matter who they are. I worked for the company in question for 13 years, and it is owned by my parents.
--
Art is in the eye of the beholder
My opinion is one of many, and probably differs greatly from the norm.

I understand....nobody likes to be taken advantage of. Nor should anybody just let someone else take advantage of them.

Lee

.. I won't raise my prices any more than what's currently displayed on the site. I believe where I'm suffering is with the gift items which I marked up incorrectly. As long as there's no money coming out of my pocket, I'll have to deal with the $13.05 type profit orders until I can establish myself.

I donate 20% of my sales to the school and give them copies of the images I take for their use ONLY (year book etc..) at no cost to them. So I'll keep chugging (sp) along and hope in the end it all works out.

No replenishment of equipment funds, but hey .. one has to live and learn. This is all new to me, but I'm giving it my best.

Thanks for all the advice, tips, suggestions, and general interaction relative to this thread and as always .. advice is ALWAYS humbly welcome.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

I've been reading through most of the posts here. You're getting a lot of advice, some good, some not so good. I happen to be a professional photographer and I have one school that I shoot football games for, so you know where I'm coming from.

First, on your web site, you have "4x6 lustre", "5x7 lustre". Lose the "lustre" in the description. It's only useful if you offer different kinds of prints. Some will see that and think it's a cheaper type of print and immediately you are expensive.

Also, who made the 20% to the school deal? The absolute most I will give a school for stuff like this (where they don't pay me and I may make no money) is 10%. Actually I try to give coaches and other important people free prints. It actually works, don't knock it! It's all about the people skills.

Discounting, hmmmm, there's a tough topic. I once heard somewhere that if 30% of people say you're too expensive, 10% say you're too cheap, and the rest say nothing about the price, then you're priced right. Maybe you haven't had time to get a good sample yet, but you got at least one complaint, right?

I don't discount my prices, ever. That said, I have a regular customer and they place a quantity order for the same print, I give them a break. I DO NOT DISCOUNT, ever! (hehe) Once people find out you gave so-and-so a discount, no one will ever pay full price again.

Hope some of this helps,

Brian
--

I want to be able to charge $1,000 for my signature on a print. Not to actually charge that much, just to be able to do it.

Hi Brian..

Thanks for teh valuable tip my friend.. see the above link labeled "I've decided" ...

I'll certainly take your advice byt right now I'm a tad burned out with web editing .. so give me a few -- I'm really tired between work, the kids, school, this side job, and all the other bells and whistles that go with being a parent of teenage kids.. ugh!!

I just want to see where this goes... but welcome all tips (especially from pros like you) I can get.

Thanks again friend.

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

Dave, do you have (and use) Photoshop Action(s) to resize your images, change the JPG Quality; and place your Copyright and Watermark information on the images you post to your Web Site.

If you don't, I will be glad to help you with this which should be much faster than doing this using other methods.

I am not an Action specialist, however; I will help you in any way that I may be qualified to do so.
Please let me know.
--
Vernon...

Hi Vernon..

Thanks for the generous offer my friend. Currently I use BreezeBrowser (after I edit the images with PS and save as 8x10) to resize, add the "PROOF" watermark, use 80% jpg quality and save as a html page into a selected directory. Then I just FTP the files to a directory on my host provider. That process is quite painless as I have the PayPal template edited and need not do it everytime.

However, I do not have actions in PSCS2 to do the main editing, so I go through each image, edit, adjust and resize a 8x10 then do the above from the edited images. That process (CS) is what's time consuming, so I need to adjust or find a better way to create a better work-flow.

Thanks again my friend for the offer.

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

IMHO, you need something for that 20% that is donated to the school, like free advertising through the school to the school population. Assuming the school publishes some sort of news letter, you should ask/insist on some ad space. This does not have to be a real ad. I can simply be a blurb stating that "xyz photography will be selling photo's of the game. See their web site for more info." Every so often see if you can get a flyer into the schools mailings. Again this shouldn't be a blatant ad it should be somehow associated with something you are doing with the school. Somehow you need to use the school as a vehicle to get you name out there I the public. Parents will become familiar with you name and start out by buying some shots of Jr, making that spectacular catch and then one day they’ll ask you if you do b’days, or something else. If you can make that happen, slowly but surely you'll build a client base.

As an example, my wife has volunteered her time every year to shoot the schools spring and fall productions. She just loves doing it so it’s great fun for her. At the end of every production the theater department has a dinner thanking all the volunteers, cast and crew and my wife brings a box of 4x6s of all the so-so to adequate shots for the kids and parents to go through and take what they want. Mind you the good shots are not in the box. Well the parents just love this and inevitably, my wife is asked by several parents, “Would you be interested in shooting Jr’s bla, bla, bla.” I’d say that is she was interested in shooting as a profession she could pick up at least two or three good clients a show.

Now some may say that you shouldn’t give away your stuff for free, but if you are using it as a part of your advertising, you really aren’t giving anything away for free. It’s helping you gain a clientele which in the long run will pay for all the photo’s you gave away. Of course there are always the people who will take advantage of you kindness but IMO they are few and far between AND the free advertising is worth the chances you are taking. Besides you’re only giving away 4x6 prints not digital negs. If you are running off the 4x6s your self you can add in a watermark w/ your website.

One other note, after running the schools “spirit shop” for several years there is a lot of room for mark up in the cups, t’s, and other such things. You should look into buying the cups and T’s in bulk this will cut way down on your costs and give you a lot more room for mark up.

Just some thoughts from someone who’s not a professional photog but started a computer consulting business using similar methods.

--
Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

Hi Bob...

I will re-read your post again together with my wife. I've been working on the site and I'm really tired and quite honestly somewhat burned out.

The school does have a link on their site back to me, but I think giving them some form of flyer would be a good idea.

I'm off to take a nap .. will be back, but before I go... I have to say I just loved your series on these images... this particular one .. moved me, and there's something about it I just can't explain.



Maybe it's the peaceful wonderful small town we wish we all lived in. It's AWESOME!

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

On other quick thought. If this is a school you are associated with for example your kids go there, I'd be real careful with the out right advertising. In that environment people can be turned off by what appears to be a voluntary act of kindness when the see your website on every pic or when you offer you serviced on a payment basis only. Its a tricky balancing act that when I was starting out in consulting I choose to eat more then I made but after 5 years it's paid off with several good steady clients coming from the school family.

Another note: several years ago another professional photog took pics of the spring (big) production. Everyone was thrilled that someone was doing this until the show was over and a link went out to this guys website and everyone realized they had to pay for the pictures. One, he wasn't up front and two, the culture wasn't right for such a thing. I can tell you that many potential clients were put off by this action. This is what prompted my wife to do what she does now and her kindness has helped change the culture. She now has people telling her she should sell her photos, or she could make good money selling photos. This says to me that people are willing to pay as long as your intentions are right.

Anyway, good luck. I looked over your photos and liked them a lot.

Oh and don't get burned out or discouraged. It takes a lot of work and second guessing to start something up. At least you have a supportive wife and a real income. When I started I had the supportive wife but no other income to fall back on. Talk about pressure.

And thanks for your complements. Those shots were done with the crappy kit lens, I'm thinking of doing it again this year but I think I want to get a 17-40L first. Maybe just the 50mm 1.8 will do.

--
Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

I avoid undercharging even if it costs me jobs for the very simple reason that if I "hook someone up" then someone else will expect a break. Some people think if I do a similar effect on one pic that I can just "do it" to another.

I can do basics and write automations to do alot of work fast but I always tweak all prints manually. If I do work to just one pic I usually had to shoot for an hour to get the right pic. I then have to nitpick each image, tweak the finals, and find my "masterpiece.

If someone is really thankful they can pay me. Most "thanks" is empty. I can't live on "thanks". I can't go to the grocery store and buy food with "thanks".

I do free images for my girl of her daughter but that's within the family. Some guy at work whose son plays football saw the picture and was quite interested. I told him that I could something similar and I showed him some other Ideas I had. I explained to him that I had to shoot a good part of the game and that the work would take much longer. He says to me " I don't mind paying as long as it's not like more than $300".

Yeah, ok pal! $300 minus $60 for the print (framed)and $20gas, and assuming I shoot for 2 hours, plus 1 hour total travel, 6 hours of editing that's $24 an hour. I make that at my day job, straight time. No way!

These people buy $3000 rims for their gas-guzzling truck and they want to nickel and dime me on what many consider quite good pictures of their goods.
--
I wish I had more money to blow and time to blow it!

.. you hot the nail on the head when you say it takes hrs to process, etc. Well, image me who's not very proficient with PS (of course that's not the customers' fault).

I guess I feel similar when I received my very first whopping $119.00 order and came off with a WHOPPING $13.05 lol

Oh well... at least I ahve my health, and yes .. a regular paying job.

Thanks again friend, for the feedback.

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

DOrtiz said:

Hi Vernon..

Thanks for the generous offer my friend. Currently I use
BreezeBrowser (after I edit the images with PS and save as 8x10) to
resize, add the "PROOF" watermark, use 80% jpg quality and save as
a html page into a selected directory.

Click to expand...

Dave, I believe you are indicating by the 80% that you are using Quality 8 for the JPG images you post on your site. If so, that really does not offer you very much protection from others being able to copy and actually Print rather good quality Photos. I have been able to print very good Photos from my test files of JPG saved with Quality 2 (20 % as you are referring to this) and using the sizes I referred to below.
This is something for you to at least think about and consider.

DOrtiz said:

Then I just FTP the files
to a directory on my host provider. That process is quite painless
as I have the PayPal template edited and need not do it everytime.

However, I do not have actions in PSCS2 to do the main editing, so
I go through each image, edit, adjust and resize a 8x10 then do the
above from the edited images. That process (CS) is what's time
consuming, so I need to adjust or find a better way to create a
better work-flow.

Thanks again my friend for the offer.

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

Click to expand...

Dave, thanks for the reply. I really believe you would be wise to NOT resize the images to 8 x 10 especially since there is NOT a normal size that will fit all possible printed sizes that people may order.

I would resize the images to either 640 x 427 Pixels OR** 800 x 533 Pixels (both are the same image dimensions ratio as your 20d which of course is 1.5 to 1.0), to JPG, and using Quality of 2 or 3 since these will display and look OK on most Computer Monitors and with your Business Name as a Watermark (on the images) would add at least some protection from being copied and printed. However, this is just my opinion.

Although I am one that will "say what I think and have a reason for same", I also will help you in any way that I may be qualified.

Good luck and don't get to "wound up and tired out" since even though it is a "part time Venture" for you, it is also important that you also enjoy what you are doing.

One more comment (then I will be quiet) [Grin] ... Are you finding that you are making basically the same type of adjustments (in Photoshop) for all your images. If so, those types perhaps could be done using an action. then, if you just resized (as discussed above) you would NOT need to view each image in order to select which part you are cropping. The images would all be displayed as the same ratio as the original. However, should there be selected images that you want to (or have to) crop, then; crop to be the same pixel ratio as your original images.
--
Vernon...

My wife used to just give a disk to her customers(friends) and she found that some didn't know what to do with it. You can tell them to take them to costco or what ever but found they never did. They would pay my wife her fee and leave them on the disk.

Now she charges extra for the disk and makes a small book of 4x6's of the best 20-30 shots with a form to order more from the ones she has printed out.

Now she gets much better orders this way.

I think we take for granted that people know the digital world but not all do and also that people are lazy and never get to printing them out even if they know how to.

remember your pictures on someones wall is the best advertiseing.

Rick

I wouldn't do anything for an individual for free unless I was going to get something in return for that work or, as in this case, it has something to do directly with the school.

As an example, I do one of the teams website F.O.C. (and I shoot all the events for pics on the web) and I never asked to get paid nor do I expect to get paid. BUT from that free work I landed a much bigger job from a well known business person in our area for at least one website and most likely others. Our association was through the school and the team. To me the free time on this website has paid off big time. Much of my business has been built around associations with the school and volunteer work.

People generally understand the difference between volunteer time and paid time and if you run across someone who doesn't you don't want them as a client anyway because they'll never pay on time and always hassle you about price.

As to people not knowing what thing really cost, that’s true across the board. People call me to and add a PC or fix a problem or lately do a "simple" web site and once you start getting into the particulars they are shocked at how much work and money it takes to do what they perceived to be simple. I just leave it up to them to decide if they want me to do the work or find someone else or try it on their own. Eventually I get the call and close the deal. If they ever call me on some deal I may have with their best friend I just simply explain that that deal is between me and the other party and has no baring on our deal. If they can't understand that they can go somewhere else.

--
Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

Hi Guys!!

Well, I can't begin to thank all of you for the great advice, tips and general feedback you've so graciously offered. However, I'm really a KNUCKLE HEAD more often than not.

Like an IDIOT I went and upgraded my PS 7.0 to PSCS, then upgraded again to PSCS-2 thinking I'd do better. Well, I find 7.0 to be easier to use (I never thought I'd use the word "easy" with ANY version of PS). I find recording actions, managing layers (still learning guys) appears easier to me. However, THIS is the killer... PSCS-2 is a memory hog and bogs down my Dell Dimension PC (not the best I know), 2.3Ghz pentium with 1Gig of RAM. It literally brings this PC to a halt to the point where it freezes everything, and yesterday I had to use the magic reboot button. :-(

I have my "scratch disk" set to my seperate D drive (as it suggested a different drive for such) and it kills my PC. So now (once again) I'm working with 7.0 and it's flying through my PC without hesitation. OK so PSCS-2 has that browser feature which is nice. However, I noticed I can preview in MS Explorer (files in thumbnails) and if I like one I simply drag and drop it into PS70 and bamm.. it opens it ready for editing. So, Dave has once again wasted another $149.00 bucks, but has learned a valuable lesson .. "Newer and more advnace isn't ALWAYS better." :-(

Finally, do you guys honestly feel the following prices are too high? I don't think so as I'd pay to frame a nice image of my kids on my wall.. especially if such is captured in a nice way, but I could very well be wrong.

Please have a look at these prices and give me your honest opinion: http://dortizphoto.com/prices.htm

Thanks again guys!

Regards,
Dave

dave.

i think 20% is too high.

tough to go back on something like this... but if you can put it to 10%... that'd be great. certainly the school is not depending on a percentage of your photography income in its operating budget.

i'd suggest what others have... give out a few pictures for publicity's sake. i give a few to coaches, and offer the yearbook editor his pick. i'm also featured all over the sports program (which a volunteer puts together. she's very happy i help, and in turn advertises for me like crazy... even bought a few pictures for her nephew). this year i also gave a "captains picture" to the parents of the captains of the football team with my website on the back. now they know where to look for shots of thier kids. (and it's been paying off all season).

using part of that 20% to give out some free pictures would be a much better use. also, even at 10% the school should be helping you with advertising significantly.

anyway, the real reason for this post is...

YOU'RE GIVING 20% OF YOUR GROSS ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!

!!!!!

WHY?

that is ludicrous, my friend. i can't imagine what prompted that, but after printing, shipping, taxes and everything else, you should really be taking that out of your net profits. you should change this.

just my $.02

--
-Dan

Hi Dan...

You're absolutely right my friend. In fact, on my $119.00 order, the one I came off with $13.05 after my messed up mark ups.. the school gets $23.80, so they did better than me!! :-((

I can't go back on the 20% thing so I marked up the prices a tad to hopefully help out. Where I got burned was on the specialty items, TShirts, Mugs, Puzzle.. I had only marked them up $1.00 and with shipping etc.. I ALMOST came up in the negative .. wheeew.

Anyway I was flat out told $6.00 is too much for a 4x6.. I was under the impression it wasn't.

Here are my revised prices: http://dortizphoto.com/prices.htm specialy items are in the gift ideas tab. I marked those up $5.00 now

Still trying to learn .. sorry.

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz

I have the large puzzle priced at $25.00. The puzzle costs me $19.95, so with shipping if someone orders it .. they'll get my image for something around $1.50

I think I should drop all the specialy items and stick with just prints.. how do you guys feel about this??

Then maybe I can drop those 4x6 to say $5.00 a print>

Regards,
Dave
--
http://pbase.com/dortiz