Israel/Palestinian problem explained.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Oren
  • Start date Start date
First of all I have read about this incident and you sound very upset about it. What about the two world trade towers most likely brought down by Islamic Fundamentalists. And what about all of the people who danced in the street because of it: Plestinians, Egyptians, Iraqis...

I have heard that the ship, sunk by the Israelis, was not flying the colors. It was an intelligence ship. And Israel was in the middle of a war. They were being attacked by Egyptian and Syrian craft in the waters off of Tel Aviv. It was an accident.

There is a point I'm making here. I believe Israel is our strongest Ally. Yes, stronger than Brittan and France. I am not jewish and I don't have any jewish friends. (this is not by choice, I just don't know any). But from all of the research and from today's current events around the world it is so clear these people are our greatest ally and best friends.

Shawn
 
Shawn, At least you are smart enough to realize that. Israel is our greatest and only TRUE ally in the Mideast.. They are a very important key in this upcoming War..
First of all I have read about this incident and you sound very
upset about it. What about the two world trade towers most likely
brought down by Islamic Fundamentalists. And what about all of the
people who danced in the street because of it: Plestinians,
Egyptians, Iraqis...

I have heard that the ship, sunk by the Israelis, was not flying
the colors. It was an intelligence ship. And Israel was in the
middle of a war. They were being attacked by Egyptian and Syrian
craft in the waters off of Tel Aviv. It was an accident.

There is a point I'm making here. I believe Israel is our
strongest Ally. Yes, stronger than Brittan and France. I am not
jewish and I don't have any jewish friends. (this is not by
choice, I just don't know any). But from all of the research and
from today's current events around the world it is so clear these
people are our greatest ally and best friends.

Shawn
 
Jerry - I don't think bin Laden wants Manhattan and Long Island.
I think he wants US troops out of Saudia Arabia.

Stephen
Actually Bin Laden wants to rid the world of Jews and Crusaders (Which I interpret to be western society).

To the best of my knoledge he has never made any demands, he just wants destruction of the infidels.

Peter
 
Actually, the land the palestinians got was not barren at all. they
had parts of the Jordan valley and river which is a great water
supply. Furthermore, Jordan and Syria controlled Israels water
supply. Not that all this mattered because the arabs got greedy and
waged war on Israel less than 24 hours after they're independence.
Israel conquered some land from them and won the war. These wars
started by the arabs continued in 56 and 67 where israel won lots
of land. 73 was the same story. You see, the only people that
screwed the palestinians where the palestinians and they're arab
brethren who wont even give them refuge.
Your statement lacks pertinent details and is incomplete. Initially, the palastinians were alloted land that had water and could be farmed. This was what I stated in my original post.

If you re-read my initial post the other information about an "incident" is there. A group of Israeli soldiers, without authorization, attacked the area of the palastinian territory and masacred those palastinians who lived in that area. Those soldiers were tried and found guilty. Unfortunately, the area that allowed access to the water was not returned. Denied access to the water by Israel, the palastinians couldn't grow a dandelion on the dry rocky soil. That condition remains the same today. Palastinians are totally dependent on Israel for their water.

Water is going to be the cause of the next major war in the Jordan, Syria, Israeli area. It's definitely in short supply. A damn now prevents the former flow of water and those that aren't getting the flow needed are not happy campers.
Also, to set the record straight, not once in the Koran is
Jerusalem mentioned. I know arab muslims who attestt to this too.
Not once. Not once when Jerusalem was under Jordaninan control did
a foreign leader from another arab country visit it. So holy to
Islam huh?
So what? What has this to do with the palastinian issue?
Jerusalem is mention 67 times in the Jewish Torah.

67-none

Guy
There used to be a news commentator. Sorry to say, I can't remember
his name. Suffice to say that he would announce and event that
occured in the world recently and then say ......"and now the rest
of the story".
I'm not gonna get into a complete disertation on the
Jewish/Palestinian story. Much of it I've forgotton. My mother's
side of the family is Jewish and they're great relatives. So
prejudice against Jewish people is not a factor in what I'm about
to say.
The land that the Palestinians received was almost completely
uninabitable. It had only a meager water supply.
There was an "Ox-Bow" incident that occured where Jewish vigilantes
attacked and took that meager water supply. They were not supported
by the Israeli government. In fact they were jailed by Israel and
tried and convicted. However, the meager water supply was not
returned.
You couldn't grow a damned dandelion on the waterless land the
Palestinians were stuck with.
A large number of the Palestinians saw the fruitlessness of
remaining. Many left. Quite a few ended up in Lebanon. A civil war
ensued. The Palestinians who weren't involved were told they had to
leave. Politics. Won't elaborate. Complete info is available. Do a
search.
The Palestinians have received a complete screwing almost every
step of the way.
I'll tell you what. If I'd been treated as badly as they had with
no hope to survive in a rock hard waterless soil, I'd try to find a
way out. Otherwise, I'd pick up a rifle and start shooting. I
wouldn't start bombing innocent civilians. Then again one never
knows. Ten years on a rock with a bit of token water dealt out by
people who stole it to begin with? No shelter? Crap for food?
Conditions like that can warp a persons mind. It obviously has done
so to many.
We really need to look more completely at the countries we are
going into. Understanding the enemy is the first step in dealing
with them.
It's a complicated situation that I don't think will ever be
completely solved.
 
What a bunch of Hogwash!!! Do you really expect people to believe
this garbage....
No, for both sides, because most people commenting on the Israel -
Palestine issue are being far too subjective which is to be expected
due to the passion each person has in their own particular message.

Suffice to say, the atrocities that happened this past Tuesday will be
nor should they ever be forgotten.

My sympathies go out to those who lost someone.

JRS
 
Well if the Palestinians are so realistic why they refused to the offer made

by former US president Clinton, the offer was that Israel will give the Palestinians most of the occupied land from 1967 including east Jerusalem,
about 98% of the land and the rest will be given from some where else in
Israel's land. The Palestinians will declare a state in this land, and declare

that the conflict is ended an they don't have any more demands from Israel. Former prime minister Heud Barak accepted this but the Palestinians refused to accept it. They insisted that refugees will come back to the places they left in 1948, it his 3,000,000 people. This demand only means the destruction of Israel and no Israeli could ever agree.
The solution as Yaser Arafat sees it is two Palestinian states.
Since then the Palestinians started terror attacks on Israel.

The leader behind this attacks is Arafat. He thought that the Israelis will not stand the losses and so he will achieve more.

What really happened is that the Israelis realized that they are in a fight on the very existence and are determined to win this fight, and most of the Israelis can't see Arafat as a partner, they simply don't believe him.
The problem is clearly the Palestinian leadership and especially Yaser Arafat.
Since Oslo agreement he always goes on the edge use violence and terror
to achieve things he can't achieve in negotiation.

He is responsible in part for the murder of Israeli prime minister Rabin, because of the terror acts in Israel (bombing buses) that isolated him and made the murder possible.

He is responsible for Shimon Peres losing the elections in 1996, because of the massive terror attack on Israel.
And he is responsible for Heud Barak losing the last elections.
His dids brought only suffer to his people.

Further more, the terror attack on USA have nothing to do with Israel,
it would have happen even if Israel doesn't exist.
We are dealing with a group of Islamic fanats who sees all the non Muslims
as en enemy.

If you think that Europe will not be a target for terror attacks you are wrong. Everybody is a target especially the rich western civilizations,
if you don't understand it now you will in a few years when this groups will
have nuclear weapons.
I just heard in the radio that the German police arrested a group of Algerians
which were sponsored by Bin Laden, they wanted to spread siran gas in the
European Parliament in Strasbourg.
So if we want to save the freedom and our way of life we must fight now
before it's too late.
  • query for a rational solution.
I don't think most Palestinians want 'all the land back' any
longer, they are much more realistic than you seem to believe. I
don't know if you read French (maybe it has been translated), but
in the 'Encyclopaedia Universalis' there is a detailed and
brilliant study of the Palestinians by the French scholar Olivier
CARRE (one of the leading specialists in this matter). It is worth
a very careful reading, and shows how much change there has been in
this matter over the last 30 years...
I don't see much good faith on either side for sitting down and
negotiating realistic borders. Palestine wants all the occupied
land back, Israel would most likely like to keep it all. The only
realistic position is somewhere between the two. A position with
both sides find untenable.
From your comments I assume there is some magic year when ownership
of all lands of the world was decided. Please let me know when that
was. I was under the mistaken impression that they have been
changing hands in conflict throughout recorded time.

Is there some implication to your bitter pill pronouncement. Does
that mean you mean the Israelis should just go away?

Peter ( Athiest )
Palestine belongs to the Palestinians or have you now re-written
history to suit you as well?

and I am neither Jew nor Arab.
Thanks for the perspective. That is pretty much the way I had
sized it up. If there is a solution, I believe the Palestinians
will have to move somewhere else
An excellent perspective and an ingenious solution to the problem,
where have you guys been all these years. I see from this forum
that these views are shared by the vast majority of americans.
The way I see it, prior to 1948 there was something called
Palestine, some people came from Russia and stole this land, now
there is nothing called Palestine.They were robbed of their own
land. and now you say they have to get the hell out.
while we acknowledge the rights of the Sefardi jews ( eastern jews)
to live peacefully among us as they have for the past 2000 years,
we can not accept the notion that descendants of the KHAZAR empire
who have turned into judaism ONLY in the 8th century AD to come
proclaiming rights in a land that was never theirs, just because
europe rejected them. The vast majority of jews in the world now
are not even semites, they are hamites;of turkish origin.

and for those of who of think I am idiot spreading venomous lies,
please read the Book entitled ' the thirteenth tribe' by a jewish
british scholar called arthur Koestler. I am not inventing this,
There is a more recent book suBstantiating the same facts By an
american scholar called Dunlop ( in Columbia University) But I dont
know the name of the book I dont own it.

By the way the first one who spoke about the Khazar ( or Kazar)
empire was Ibn Fadlan. those of who who watch movies a lot will
know that Ibn Fadlan was ' THE THIRTEENTH WARRIOR', But the movie
speaks about a different segment of his life ( doesnt the number
ring a bell)
There is nothing wrong in Belonging to this GREAT empire at all
because they were GREAT fighters, had a thriving civilisation, they
stood up LIKE GREAT MEN against the muslims and the Byzantine
empire for centuries even before conversion to Judaism, and their
capital was a thriving economic centre of the world like NewYork
today until they were swept by Ghengiz Khan, and migrated to Poland
and Russia.
Modern Jews reject these facts or 'lies' if you want to call them
because it voids anti-semitism of its meaning, and strips them of
alleged historical rights in places they dont belong to.
I will not contribute to this particular thread again so as not to
start another war, as this is not my intention.
and by the way these are soley my views and are not the views held
By the majority or even the minority of the muslim world Becuase
unfortunately nobody here knows about Koestler or Dunlop.

Hatem
 
Wait a second here, you say that israely soldiers, on their own, without govermental approval occupied territories? Or are you talking about some isolated incident somewhere in the already occupied territories?
If the latter is true, then what does this have to do with the whole conflict.

It is the territory of PA that has the better land and the water supply. The coastal area of Israel is sands and nothing more, Judea and Samaria are Gardens of Eden compared to the Negev, Coastal area etc..

Sorry to tell this, but i have yet to see a sign of truth in your message..
Actually, the land the palestinians got was not barren at all. they
had parts of the Jordan valley and river which is a great water
supply. Furthermore, Jordan and Syria controlled Israels water
supply. Not that all this mattered because the arabs got greedy and
waged war on Israel less than 24 hours after they're independence.
Israel conquered some land from them and won the war. These wars
started by the arabs continued in 56 and 67 where israel won lots
of land. 73 was the same story. You see, the only people that
screwed the palestinians where the palestinians and they're arab
brethren who wont even give them refuge.
Your statement lacks pertinent details and is incomplete.
Initially, the palastinians were alloted land that had water and
could be farmed. This was what I stated in my original post.
If you re-read my initial post the other information about an
"incident" is there. A group of Israeli soldiers, without
authorization, attacked the area of the palastinian territory and
masacred those palastinians who lived in that area. Those soldiers
were tried and found guilty. Unfortunately, the area that allowed
access to the water was not returned. Denied access to the water by
Israel, the palastinians couldn't grow a dandelion on the dry rocky
soil. That condition remains the same today. Palastinians are
totally dependent on Israel for their water.
Water is going to be the cause of the next major war in the Jordan,
Syria, Israeli area. It's definitely in short supply. A damn now
prevents the former flow of water and those that aren't getting the
flow needed are not happy campers.
Also, to set the record straight, not once in the Koran is
Jerusalem mentioned. I know arab muslims who attestt to this too.
Not once. Not once when Jerusalem was under Jordaninan control did
a foreign leader from another arab country visit it. So holy to
Islam huh?
So what? What has this to do with the palastinian issue?
Jerusalem is mention 67 times in the Jewish Torah.

67-none

Guy
There used to be a news commentator. Sorry to say, I can't remember
his name. Suffice to say that he would announce and event that
occured in the world recently and then say ......"and now the rest
of the story".
I'm not gonna get into a complete disertation on the
Jewish/Palestinian story. Much of it I've forgotton. My mother's
side of the family is Jewish and they're great relatives. So
prejudice against Jewish people is not a factor in what I'm about
to say.
The land that the Palestinians received was almost completely
uninabitable. It had only a meager water supply.
There was an "Ox-Bow" incident that occured where Jewish vigilantes
attacked and took that meager water supply. They were not supported
by the Israeli government. In fact they were jailed by Israel and
tried and convicted. However, the meager water supply was not
returned.
You couldn't grow a damned dandelion on the waterless land the
Palestinians were stuck with.
A large number of the Palestinians saw the fruitlessness of
remaining. Many left. Quite a few ended up in Lebanon. A civil war
ensued. The Palestinians who weren't involved were told they had to
leave. Politics. Won't elaborate. Complete info is available. Do a
search.
The Palestinians have received a complete screwing almost every
step of the way.
I'll tell you what. If I'd been treated as badly as they had with
no hope to survive in a rock hard waterless soil, I'd try to find a
way out. Otherwise, I'd pick up a rifle and start shooting. I
wouldn't start bombing innocent civilians. Then again one never
knows. Ten years on a rock with a bit of token water dealt out by
people who stole it to begin with? No shelter? Crap for food?
Conditions like that can warp a persons mind. It obviously has done
so to many.
We really need to look more completely at the countries we are
going into. Understanding the enemy is the first step in dealing
with them.
It's a complicated situation that I don't think will ever be
completely solved.
 
Wait a second here, you say that israely soldiers, on their own,
without govermental approval occupied territories? Or are you
talking about some isolated incident somewhere in the already
occupied territories?
That's exactly what I am saying. Here's a brief history. Take special note of the mention of Ariel Sharon and his inictment by the Genvea convention as a war criminal. Following this brief is an additional link to what happened at Dayr Yassin.

1947 - 1949 A.D.) THE BRITISH WITHDRAWAL AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL: During World War II, the international Zionist movement moved its headquarters from London to the United States, which emerged from the war as the most powerful economic and military power in the world. After the war, Zionist terrorist attacks in Palestine were accelerated making the occupation increasingly expensive for the British. All British attempts to stem the terrorism were criticized by the United States which increasingly pressured the British to accede to all Zionist demands, including most prominently, the issuance of 100,000 new immigration certificates for European Jews. Facing such pressures, the British in February 1947 declared that they would hand over the Palestinian issue to the newly established United Nations. In August, the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) called for the end of the British Mandate and the creation of procedures leading to the independence of Palestine. The majority of UNSCOP members advocated the partition of Palestine into Palestinian and Jewish states. Before the UN even voted on the proposal, the British declared that they would withdraw from Palestine on May 15, ending the Mandate unilaterally. On Nov. 29, after strong American pressure on a number of member countries, the UN voted to partition Palestine, a plan quickly rejected by the Palestinians. Hostility between Palestinians and Jews increased after the vote as the well-armed Jewish troops that had been organized during the Mandate period began a war of terror in the cities and began establishing military control over the areas granted to them under the UN plan. The Palestinians also began organizing their forces, but they were short of weaponry and lacked the kind of coordination that would enable them to mount a sustained resistance. The Zionists undertook a major offensive in early April, 1948 which involved the undertaking of brutal massacres, such as that at Dayr Yassin on April 9, and other terrorist acts. By May 14, the Zionists had taken control over all the areas granted to them by the UN and, one day before Britain formally handed over its powers in Palestine, declared the state of Israel. Within hours, the United States declared its recognition of the new state. After the British withdrew, fighting units from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia entered Palestine but were outmaneuvered by the Israeli forces and lacked any coordination. Jordan, which had the most powerful army, did not even undertake any sustained offensives, preferring to establish defensive perimeters around the areas they coveted. The Jordanian leader, King Abdullah, had in fact been in contact with Zionist leaders since 1947 and had expressed to them his support for partition of Palestine with Jordan taking control of the Arab section. Sharing similar aims with the Zionists, little actual fighting took place between the two armies. During the wars which lasted from May until July of 1948, the Israelis were able to substantially expand their holdings beyond what they were given by the UN. When Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden, the first UN mediator to try to bring an end to the hostilities, challenged some of the Zionist assumptions he was assassinated by a Zionist terrorist group. His successor, Ralph Bunche of the United States, negotiated a cessation of hostilities between Israel and the Arab states that was concluded in July 1949, enabling Israel to keep the territories they had taken by force, while placing the remaining parts of Palestine under Jordanian and Egyptian control. Even before the negotiations had started, King Abdullah formally proclaimed the unity of Arab Palestine (usually referred to as the West Bank) and Jordan. During the war, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forced from their homes. Of the 860,000 Arabs who lived in the parts of Palestine that came under Israeli occupation, only 133,000 remained. Of the rest, 470,000 entered refugee camps in the Jordanian-controlled West Bank and the Gaza Strip, then held by Egypt. The remainder were dispersed into Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan proper.

(1949 - present) ISRAELI OPPRESSION AND EXPANSION: While Israel’s existence is largely due to the UN, Israel has consistently refused to adhere to dozens of UN resolutions that have been passed over the years calling for peace, the return of Palestinian refugees to their homes, an Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories, and the establishment of permanent boundaries. Israel has in fact expanded its borders dramatically over the years, most notably when they undertook a surprise attack on Jordan and Egypt in 1967 occupying the rest of historic Palestine, including the city of Jerusalem. Israel also invaded Lebanon in 1982 and has continued to occupy a swath of Lebanese territory until the present. The Palestinian population living under Israeli occupation has suffered from persecution and a violent occupation regime, that seems intent on continuing to colonize and Judaize all parts of Palestine. In 1987, the Palestinian people began a sustained revolt in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that came to be known as the Intifadha. The revolt lasted until 1993, when the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) negotiated a secret peace deal with Israel that called for limited Palestinian autonomy in unspecified parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in return for formal Palestinian recognition of Israel, and PLO help in suppressing continued Palestinian resistance.

INTIFADA 2000: On September 28th, 2000, Ariel Sharon, an Israeli right-wing politician and an indicted war criminal under the Fourth Geneva Convention, visited Al-Haram Al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) with an escort of 2000 armed guards. Sharon's visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif, one of the holiest Islamic sites, ignited the recent clashes that have killed hundreds and injured tens of thousands of Palestinians.
http://www.birzeit.edu/crdps/[email protected]

http://www.palestinerefugees.org/HTML/history.htm
If the latter is true, then what does this have to do with the
whole conflict.
It is the territory of PA that has the better land and the water
supply. The coastal area of Israel is sands and nothing more, Judea
and Samaria are Gardens of Eden compared to the Negev, Coastal area
etc..

Sorry to tell this, but i have yet to see a sign of truth in your
message..
Actually, the land the palestinians got was not barren at all. they
had parts of the Jordan valley and river which is a great water
supply. Furthermore, Jordan and Syria controlled Israels water
supply. Not that all this mattered because the arabs got greedy and
waged war on Israel less than 24 hours after they're independence.
Israel conquered some land from them and won the war. These wars
started by the arabs continued in 56 and 67 where israel won lots
of land. 73 was the same story. You see, the only people that
screwed the palestinians where the palestinians and they're arab
brethren who wont even give them refuge.
Your statement lacks pertinent details and is incomplete.
Initially, the palastinians were alloted land that had water and
could be farmed. This was what I stated in my original post.
If you re-read my initial post the other information about an
"incident" is there. A group of Israeli soldiers, without
authorization, attacked the area of the palastinian territory and
masacred those palastinians who lived in that area. Those soldiers
were tried and found guilty. Unfortunately, the area that allowed
access to the water was not returned. Denied access to the water by
Israel, the palastinians couldn't grow a dandelion on the dry rocky
soil. That condition remains the same today. Palastinians are
totally dependent on Israel for their water.
Water is going to be the cause of the next major war in the Jordan,
Syria, Israeli area. It's definitely in short supply. A damn now
prevents the former flow of water and those that aren't getting the
flow needed are not happy campers.
Also, to set the record straight, not once in the Koran is
Jerusalem mentioned. I know arab muslims who attestt to this too.
Not once. Not once when Jerusalem was under Jordaninan control did
a foreign leader from another arab country visit it. So holy to
Islam huh?
So what? What has this to do with the palastinian issue?
Jerusalem is mention 67 times in the Jewish Torah.

67-none

Guy
There used to be a news commentator. Sorry to say, I can't remember
his name. Suffice to say that he would announce and event that
occured in the world recently and then say ......"and now the rest
of the story".
I'm not gonna get into a complete disertation on the
Jewish/Palestinian story. Much of it I've forgotton. My mother's
side of the family is Jewish and they're great relatives. So
prejudice against Jewish people is not a factor in what I'm about
to say.
The land that the Palestinians received was almost completely
uninabitable. It had only a meager water supply.
There was an "Ox-Bow" incident that occured where Jewish vigilantes
attacked and took that meager water supply. They were not supported
by the Israeli government. In fact they were jailed by Israel and
tried and convicted. However, the meager water supply was not
returned.
You couldn't grow a damned dandelion on the waterless land the
Palestinians were stuck with.
A large number of the Palestinians saw the fruitlessness of
remaining. Many left. Quite a few ended up in Lebanon. A civil war
ensued. The Palestinians who weren't involved were told they had to
leave. Politics. Won't elaborate. Complete info is available. Do a
search.
The Palestinians have received a complete screwing almost every
step of the way.
I'll tell you what. If I'd been treated as badly as they had with
no hope to survive in a rock hard waterless soil, I'd try to find a
way out. Otherwise, I'd pick up a rifle and start shooting. I
wouldn't start bombing innocent civilians. Then again one never
knows. Ten years on a rock with a bit of token water dealt out by
people who stole it to begin with? No shelter? Crap for food?
Conditions like that can warp a persons mind. It obviously has done
so to many.
We really need to look more completely at the countries we are
going into. Understanding the enemy is the first step in dealing
with them.
It's a complicated situation that I don't think will ever be
completely solved.
 
Many of us, too late, are wondering why psychotic organizations that follow criminals like bin Laden have come into being.

The only way to prevent further spawn of such individuals is to start playing fair in the Mid East. Every U.N. resolution in favor of the Palestinians has been ignored! What's the point of having a U.N?

The reasons for terrorists organizations are many. Wasn't the Shah of Iran a wonderful person? We (the U.S.) supported that butcher. I'll leave the research on that creep to the readers of this post.

Here's a short link to the indictment now being sought against Ariel Sharon. Israel's hero. I feel they should nail this guys balls to a table and tip him over backwards.

I also demand, for what good it will do, that my representitives start considering human rights instead of corporate rights. Listen to your citizens. Look out for the well being of your citizens. That's your job!
Here's the link to "good ole boy" Ariel Sharon:
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/sharon.htm
 
How could you compare the pre-state attacks against the british soldiers and what the palestinians are doing right now ?

Was there a talk with the british ?
Did they have any right to send people back to germeny to the death camps ?
They were in israel only to exploit its resources.

Also those action were only directed towards army targets.

No one offered the jewish people here a country (as opposed to what the palestinians are being offered)

I get the chills when i hear talks like that and those kind of comparisons.

Oren.
Many of us, too late, are wondering why psychotic organizations
that follow criminals like bin Laden have come into being.
The only way to prevent further spawn of such individuals is to
start playing fair in the Mid East. Every U.N. resolution in favor
of the Palestinians has been ignored! What's the point of having a
U.N?
The reasons for terrorists organizations are many. Wasn't the Shah
of Iran a wonderful person? We (the U.S.) supported that butcher.
I'll leave the research on that creep to the readers of this post.
Here's a short link to the indictment now being sought against
Ariel Sharon. Israel's hero. I feel they should nail this guys
balls to a table and tip him over backwards.
I also demand, for what good it will do, that my representitives
start considering human rights instead of corporate rights. Listen
to your citizens. Look out for the well being of your citizens.
That's your job!
Here's the link to "good ole boy" Ariel Sharon:
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/sharon.htm
 
pardon me, but the articles you quoted sound smack with anti-jewish sentiments and lays the blame for all the trouble in the middle east solely in the camp of israel. it also singles out jordan as the country most responsible in the arab side for kicking the palestines in the balls when they were down. it fails to mention however, the lot of the refugees after the fighting. while some of the leaders of the arab countries had no qualms starting wars with israel so the dispossessed palestinians can return to their "righful homeland", they have been close-fisted when it comes to alleviating the plight of their fellow arabs, instead forcing the palestinians to live in squalid refugee cities. israel, on the other hand, have offered them land and limited self-rule, something that the countries where they sought sanctuary never offered them. who then is more compassionate? israel has opened its doors to the people who have sought to destroy them, while people like saddam hussein sought to destroy his blood brothers. sad, but true.

the united states has been more compassionate to these people, giving them the opportunities that some of their brother arabs have been adamant in not providing them. they have been integrated into mainstream american life, while their less fortunate brethren are treated as second class citizens in the lands where they sough trefuge.

as long as the arabs treat the palestinians this way, i can never subscribe to their claim that israel is the root cause of their problems. when a person is willing to kill his neighbor for food to give his brother but locks his pantry so his brothe cannot share his, i can not believe he loves his brother.
Wait a second here, you say that israely soldiers, on their own,
without govermental approval occupied territories? Or are you
talking about some isolated incident somewhere in the already
occupied territories?
That's exactly what I am saying. Here's a brief history. Take
special note of the mention of Ariel Sharon and his inictment by
the Genvea convention as a war criminal. Following this brief is an
additional link to what happened at Dayr Yassin.
1947 - 1949 A.D.) THE BRITISH WITHDRAWAL AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF
ISRAEL: During World War II, the international Zionist movement
moved its headquarters from London to the United States, which
emerged from the war as the most powerful economic and military
power in the world. After the war, Zionist terrorist attacks in
Palestine were accelerated making the occupation increasingly
expensive for the British. All British attempts to stem the
terrorism were criticized by the United States which increasingly
pressured the British to accede to all Zionist demands, including
most prominently, the issuance of 100,000 new immigration
certificates for European Jews. Facing such pressures, the British
in February 1947 declared that they would hand over the Palestinian
issue to the newly established United Nations. In August, the
United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) called for
the end of the British Mandate and the creation of procedures
leading to the independence of Palestine. The majority of UNSCOP
members advocated the partition of Palestine into Palestinian and
Jewish states. Before the UN even voted on the proposal, the
British declared that they would withdraw from Palestine on May 15,
ending the Mandate unilaterally. On Nov. 29, after strong American
pressure on a number of member countries, the UN voted to partition
Palestine, a plan quickly rejected by the Palestinians. Hostility
between Palestinians and Jews increased after the vote as the
well-armed Jewish troops that had been organized during the Mandate
period began a war of terror in the cities and began establishing
military control over the areas granted to them under the UN plan.
The Palestinians also began organizing their forces, but they were
short of weaponry and lacked the kind of coordination that would
enable them to mount a sustained resistance. The Zionists undertook
a major offensive in early April, 1948 which involved the
undertaking of brutal massacres, such as that at Dayr Yassin on
April 9, and other terrorist acts. By May 14, the Zionists had
taken control over all the areas granted to them by the UN and, one
day before Britain formally handed over its powers in Palestine,
declared the state of Israel. Within hours, the United States
declared its recognition of the new state. After the British
withdrew, fighting units from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan,
and Saudi Arabia entered Palestine but were outmaneuvered by the
Israeli forces and lacked any coordination. Jordan, which had the
most powerful army, did not even undertake any sustained
offensives, preferring to establish defensive perimeters around the
areas they coveted. The Jordanian leader, King Abdullah, had in
fact been in contact with Zionist leaders since 1947 and had
expressed to them his support for partition of Palestine with
Jordan taking control of the Arab section. Sharing similar aims
with the Zionists, little actual fighting took place between the
two armies. During the wars which lasted from May until July of
1948, the Israelis were able to substantially expand their holdings
beyond what they were given by the UN. When Count Folke Bernadotte
of Sweden, the first UN mediator to try to bring an end to the
hostilities, challenged some of the Zionist assumptions he was
assassinated by a Zionist terrorist group. His successor, Ralph
Bunche of the United States, negotiated a cessation of hostilities
between Israel and the Arab states that was concluded in July 1949,
enabling Israel to keep the territories they had taken by force,
while placing the remaining parts of Palestine under Jordanian and
Egyptian control. Even before the negotiations had started, King
Abdullah formally proclaimed the unity of Arab Palestine (usually
referred to as the West Bank) and Jordan. During the war, hundreds
of thousands of Palestinians were forced from their homes. Of the
860,000 Arabs who lived in the parts of Palestine that came under
Israeli occupation, only 133,000 remained. Of the rest, 470,000
entered refugee camps in the Jordanian-controlled West Bank and the
Gaza Strip, then held by Egypt. The remainder were dispersed into
Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan proper.

(1949 - present) ISRAELI OPPRESSION AND EXPANSION: While
Israel’s existence is largely due to the UN, Israel has
consistently refused to adhere to dozens of UN resolutions that
have been passed over the years calling for peace, the return of
Palestinian refugees to their homes, an Israeli withdrawal from
occupied territories, and the establishment of permanent
boundaries. Israel has in fact expanded its borders dramatically
over the years, most notably when they undertook a surprise attack
on Jordan and Egypt in 1967 occupying the rest of historic
Palestine, including the city of Jerusalem. Israel also invaded
Lebanon in 1982 and has continued to occupy a swath of Lebanese
territory until the present. The Palestinian population living
under Israeli occupation has suffered from persecution and a
violent occupation regime, that seems intent on continuing to
colonize and Judaize all parts of Palestine. In 1987, the
Palestinian people began a sustained revolt in the West Bank and
Gaza Strip that came to be known as the Intifadha. The revolt
lasted until 1993, when the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)
negotiated a secret peace deal with Israel that called for limited
Palestinian autonomy in unspecified parts of the West Bank and Gaza
Strip in return for formal Palestinian recognition of Israel, and
PLO help in suppressing continued Palestinian resistance.

INTIFADA 2000: On September 28th, 2000, Ariel Sharon, an Israeli
right-wing politician and an indicted war criminal under the Fourth
Geneva Convention, visited Al-Haram Al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary)
with an escort of 2000 armed guards. Sharon's visit to Al-Haram
Al-Sharif, one of the holiest Islamic sites, ignited the recent
clashes that have killed hundreds and injured tens of thousands of
Palestinians.
http://www.birzeit.edu/crdps/[email protected]

http://www.palestinerefugees.org/HTML/history.htm
If the latter is true, then what does this have to do with the
whole conflict.
It is the territory of PA that has the better land and the water
supply. The coastal area of Israel is sands and nothing more, Judea
and Samaria are Gardens of Eden compared to the Negev, Coastal area
etc..

Sorry to tell this, but i have yet to see a sign of truth in your
message..
Actually, the land the palestinians got was not barren at all. they
had parts of the Jordan valley and river which is a great water
supply. Furthermore, Jordan and Syria controlled Israels water
supply. Not that all this mattered because the arabs got greedy and
waged war on Israel less than 24 hours after they're independence.
Israel conquered some land from them and won the war. These wars
started by the arabs continued in 56 and 67 where israel won lots
of land. 73 was the same story. You see, the only people that
screwed the palestinians where the palestinians and they're arab
brethren who wont even give them refuge.
Your statement lacks pertinent details and is incomplete.
Initially, the palastinians were alloted land that had water and
could be farmed. This was what I stated in my original post.
If you re-read my initial post the other information about an
"incident" is there. A group of Israeli soldiers, without
authorization, attacked the area of the palastinian territory and
masacred those palastinians who lived in that area. Those soldiers
were tried and found guilty. Unfortunately, the area that allowed
access to the water was not returned. Denied access to the water by
Israel, the palastinians couldn't grow a dandelion on the dry rocky
soil. That condition remains the same today. Palastinians are
totally dependent on Israel for their water.
Water is going to be the cause of the next major war in the Jordan,
Syria, Israeli area. It's definitely in short supply. A damn now
prevents the former flow of water and those that aren't getting the
flow needed are not happy campers.
Also, to set the record straight, not once in the Koran is
Jerusalem mentioned. I know arab muslims who attestt to this too.
Not once. Not once when Jerusalem was under Jordaninan control did
a foreign leader from another arab country visit it. So holy to
Islam huh?
So what? What has this to do with the palastinian issue?
Jerusalem is mention 67 times in the Jewish Torah.

67-none

Guy
There used to be a news commentator. Sorry to say, I can't remember
his name. Suffice to say that he would announce and event that
occured in the world recently and then say ......"and now the rest
of the story".
I'm not gonna get into a complete disertation on the
Jewish/Palestinian story. Much of it I've forgotton. My mother's
side of the family is Jewish and they're great relatives. So
prejudice against Jewish people is not a factor in what I'm about
to say.
The land that the Palestinians received was almost completely
uninabitable. It had only a meager water supply.
There was an "Ox-Bow" incident that occured where Jewish vigilantes
attacked and took that meager water supply. They were not supported
by the Israeli government. In fact they were jailed by Israel and
tried and convicted. However, the meager water supply was not
returned.
You couldn't grow a damned dandelion on the waterless land the
Palestinians were stuck with.
A large number of the Palestinians saw the fruitlessness of
remaining. Many left. Quite a few ended up in Lebanon. A civil war
ensued. The Palestinians who weren't involved were told they had to
leave. Politics. Won't elaborate. Complete info is available. Do a
search.
The Palestinians have received a complete screwing almost every
step of the way.
I'll tell you what. If I'd been treated as badly as they had with
no hope to survive in a rock hard waterless soil, I'd try to find a
way out. Otherwise, I'd pick up a rifle and start shooting. I
wouldn't start bombing innocent civilians. Then again one never
knows. Ten years on a rock with a bit of token water dealt out by
people who stole it to begin with? No shelter? Crap for food?
Conditions like that can warp a persons mind. It obviously has done
so to many.
We really need to look more completely at the countries we are
going into. Understanding the enemy is the first step in dealing
with them.
It's a complicated situation that I don't think will ever be
completely solved.
 
How could you compare the pre-state attacks against the british
soldiers and what the palestinians are doing right now ?
Did you spend the time to read the sites I posted? Did you read of the attacks on Palestinians by Israel? Both Pre-State and afterwards?
Was there a talk with the british ?
Did they have any right to send people back to germeny to the death
camps ?
They were in israel only to exploit its resources.

Also those action were only directed towards army targets.
No, you didn't read the articles.
No one offered the jewish people here a country (as opposed to what
the palestinians are being offered)
I don't know where you live. For the sake of argument, let's say Minnesota. Ohio invades Minnesota. You get to have a new home! The Mohave desert would be nice. Now that's a nice offer isn't it. How bout Los Angeles. Now that's even a better offer! What'ya mean you like Minnesota and LA sucks! Sorry. You're going to Los Angeles and I don't want and static from you.
I get the chills when i hear talks like that and those kind of
comparisons.
I get the chills when people refuse to give credence to the fact that there are two sides to every story. I get the chills when some of those facts went to court and were condemned, legally!

It is viewpoints (actually lack of) that precipitated the present situation. And the beat goes on and on and on and on.

Ok I agree with you. The terrorist organizations were formed by people who were born crazy. Nothing ever occured to warp these peoples minds. And, they are warped. Maybe it was drugs? Maybe time has long past where we need to sit down and study the situation and find a viable solution.

Col. Custer was considered a hero. History has turned that story completely around. It took over 100 years before his genocide methods were finally revealed. Do we need to wait another 100 years to square away the problems in the Mid East? I know! Ignore them. They always go away. Don't they?
Oren.
Many of us, too late, are wondering why psychotic organizations
that follow criminals like bin Laden have come into being.
The only way to prevent further spawn of such individuals is to
start playing fair in the Mid East. Every U.N. resolution in favor
of the Palestinians has been ignored! What's the point of having a
U.N?
The reasons for terrorists organizations are many. Wasn't the Shah
of Iran a wonderful person? We (the U.S.) supported that butcher.
I'll leave the research on that creep to the readers of this post.
Here's a short link to the indictment now being sought against
Ariel Sharon. Israel's hero. I feel they should nail this guys
balls to a table and tip him over backwards.
I also demand, for what good it will do, that my representitives
start considering human rights instead of corporate rights. Listen
to your citizens. Look out for the well being of your citizens.
That's your job!
Here's the link to "good ole boy" Ariel Sharon:
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/sharon.htm
 
Even though i disagree with the things you said. it seems to no point to continue to argue with you

instead i'll copy paste a nice thing one of the member of a group list i belong to submmitted:

The following material was written by an American Christian professor. It's
important information to know since we don't get fair and accurate reporting
from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....TAKES JUST 5-15
MINUTES TO READ!!!!
It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew it doesn't matter.
Thank you.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two
thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
modern
State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE ! the Jews have had dominion over
the
land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the
past! 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than
22
years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem
has
never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital,
and
Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees. In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to
leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews.
Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab
brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated
to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the
Arab
lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in
the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no
larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight separate
nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation.
The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost.! Israel defended itself
each time and won.

14. The P.L.O'S Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of
Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land,
autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with
weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews
were
denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and
Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all
faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs--Of the 175 Security Council
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 190, 429 were
directed against Israel.

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the
Jordanians!

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the
ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives! .

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy
of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
How could you compare the pre-state attacks against the british
soldiers and what the palestinians are doing right now ?
Did you spend the time to read the sites I posted? Did you read of
the attacks on Palestinians by Israel? Both Pre-State and
afterwards?
Was there a talk with the british ?
Did they have any right to send people back to germeny to the death
camps ?
They were in israel only to exploit its resources.

Also those action were only directed towards army targets.
No, you didn't read the articles.
No one offered the jewish people here a country (as opposed to what
the palestinians are being offered)
I don't know where you live. For the sake of argument, let's say
Minnesota. Ohio invades Minnesota. You get to have a new home! The
Mohave desert would be nice. Now that's a nice offer isn't it. How
bout Los Angeles. Now that's even a better offer! What'ya mean you
like Minnesota and LA sucks! Sorry. You're going to Los Angeles and
I don't want and static from you.
I get the chills when i hear talks like that and those kind of
comparisons.
I get the chills when people refuse to give credence to the fact
that there are two sides to every story. I get the chills when some
of those facts went to court and were condemned, legally!
It is viewpoints (actually lack of) that precipitated the present
situation. And the beat goes on and on and on and on.
Ok I agree with you. The terrorist organizations were formed by
people who were born crazy. Nothing ever occured to warp these
peoples minds. And, they are warped. Maybe it was drugs? Maybe time
has long past where we need to sit down and study the situation and
find a viable solution.
Col. Custer was considered a hero. History has turned that story
completely around. It took over 100 years before his genocide
methods were finally revealed. Do we need to wait another 100 years
to square away the problems in the Mid East? I know! Ignore them.
They always go away. Don't they?
Oren.
Many of us, too late, are wondering why psychotic organizations
that follow criminals like bin Laden have come into being.
The only way to prevent further spawn of such individuals is to
start playing fair in the Mid East. Every U.N. resolution in favor
of the Palestinians has been ignored! What's the point of having a
U.N?
The reasons for terrorists organizations are many. Wasn't the Shah
of Iran a wonderful person? We (the U.S.) supported that butcher.
I'll leave the research on that creep to the readers of this post.
Here's a short link to the indictment now being sought against
Ariel Sharon. Israel's hero. I feel they should nail this guys
balls to a table and tip him over backwards.
I also demand, for what good it will do, that my representitives
start considering human rights instead of corporate rights. Listen
to your citizens. Look out for the well being of your citizens.
That's your job!
Here's the link to "good ole boy" Ariel Sharon:
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/sharon.htm
 
The Israelis are very gracious and warm hearted people. They are not terroists. the Palistines may have a cause, and good reason for occuping terroitory. They go at it the wrong way. They engage in terrorist activity. They would get a lot farther and faster if they didn't behave in such manors. Who would allow their children to throw rocks at solders? And when the solders fire on them in defense, we hear the Palistines cry out in disbelief. Then we see suicide bombings, the vicious cycle never ends.

All the PLO has to do is STOP the violence, thats all. Israel is more then willing for a cease fire and negotiate with the PLO. Theres more at stake here however.

Jerusalem is the holiest city for three major religions, we all know who they are. This is more a religious war then anything else. I fear if there ever is another world war it will start in the middle east.

I don't see any easy simple solution that will please everyone.

Jim K
here i have found a link which describes the palestinian refugee
dillema in detail, which a lot of people would probably dismiss as
hogwash, being culled from the website of the jewish virtual
library:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

please feel free to contest any point or issue discussed in this
article, but as it appears from this website, the palestinian
problem was exacerbated by other arab countries who encouraged
palestinian emigration but subsequently refused to aid the plight
of their fellow arabs.

by military dictum, israel has the right to the territories it
conquered and subsequently occupied. arab countres waged war in
behalf of their palestinian neighbors and lost. being open to
jewish resettlement and eventual declaration of an independent
palestinian state to me appears as concessions for peace, but
palestinian and arab demands for the TOTAL dismemberment of the
state of israel is simply, by all common sense and logic to
israelis and fair-minded individuals in the light of the existing
situation, unacceptable, and to put it lightly, in the realm of
fairy tale. no country would ever agree to that.

the palestinians have a right to their own country. even israel
concedes to that. but they have to work within the limits imposed
by the present world situation and not base their demands on
historical claims, which at this point of time simply would not
wash.
 
Jim, you left out the key word, today. I don't see a solution,
today. Maybe tomorrow, if the violence stops, then it will be
seen. Ever attended a wedding from held by a religion foriegn
to your experience, and spent the entire time attempting to
act correctly, and not do something stupid or offensive? It
really does work, if you work at it. The same can happen in the
Middle East, if and only if they approach each other in that same
stance. That can not be done today, but tomorrow is another
day. Tomorrow, maybe no one will throw any rocks.
All the PLO has to do is STOP the violence, thats all. Israel is
more then willing for a cease fire and negotiate with the PLO.
Theres more at stake here however.

Jerusalem is the holiest city for three major religions, we all
know who they are. This is more a religious war then anything else.
I fear if there ever is another world war it will start in the
middle east.

I don't see any easy simple solution that will please everyone.

Jim K
here i have found a link which describes the palestinian refugee
dillema in detail, which a lot of people would probably dismiss as
hogwash, being culled from the website of the jewish virtual
library:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

please feel free to contest any point or issue discussed in this
article, but as it appears from this website, the palestinian
problem was exacerbated by other arab countries who encouraged
palestinian emigration but subsequently refused to aid the plight
of their fellow arabs.

by military dictum, israel has the right to the territories it
conquered and subsequently occupied. arab countres waged war in
behalf of their palestinian neighbors and lost. being open to
jewish resettlement and eventual declaration of an independent
palestinian state to me appears as concessions for peace, but
palestinian and arab demands for the TOTAL dismemberment of the
state of israel is simply, by all common sense and logic to
israelis and fair-minded individuals in the light of the existing
situation, unacceptable, and to put it lightly, in the realm of
fairy tale. no country would ever agree to that.

the palestinians have a right to their own country. even israel
concedes to that. but they have to work within the limits imposed
by the present world situation and not base their demands on
historical claims, which at this point of time simply would not
wash.
 
Being held, not from held! I really should proofread better.
All the PLO has to do is STOP the violence, thats all. Israel is
more then willing for a cease fire and negotiate with the PLO.
Theres more at stake here however.

Jerusalem is the holiest city for three major religions, we all
know who they are. This is more a religious war then anything else.
I fear if there ever is another world war it will start in the
middle east.

I don't see any easy simple solution that will please everyone.

Jim K
here i have found a link which describes the palestinian refugee
dillema in detail, which a lot of people would probably dismiss as
hogwash, being culled from the website of the jewish virtual
library:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

please feel free to contest any point or issue discussed in this
article, but as it appears from this website, the palestinian
problem was exacerbated by other arab countries who encouraged
palestinian emigration but subsequently refused to aid the plight
of their fellow arabs.

by military dictum, israel has the right to the territories it
conquered and subsequently occupied. arab countres waged war in
behalf of their palestinian neighbors and lost. being open to
jewish resettlement and eventual declaration of an independent
palestinian state to me appears as concessions for peace, but
palestinian and arab demands for the TOTAL dismemberment of the
state of israel is simply, by all common sense and logic to
israelis and fair-minded individuals in the light of the existing
situation, unacceptable, and to put it lightly, in the realm of
fairy tale. no country would ever agree to that.

the palestinians have a right to their own country. even israel
concedes to that. but they have to work within the limits imposed
by the present world situation and not base their demands on
historical claims, which at this point of time simply would not
wash.
 
Chunin, your article is an interesting one that does have a factual basis. I have previously read about the Liberty incident and while the articles and book chapters did not have the sort of details you cited, they did indeed question the genuineness of the claimed "mistaken identity" excuse, and did mention that the U.S. swept the incident under the carpet rather rapidly.

However, the web site where you obtained the article does not appear, from the half dozen other articles I read, to be an objective source of news and opinions. The articles that appeared there had a very distinct left wing and anti-American bias. Although one article accurately described the immense difficulty the U.S. faces in trying to fight any sort of a war in Afghanistan, another described U.S. involvement in the two world wars as that of a belligerant; I would not characterize the conduct of a nation that was more the victim than the aggressor as "belligerant." Therefore, I will take the findings and conclusions of Mr. Margolis with a grain of salt.

Israel is indeed the United States' strongest, most dependable ally in the Middle East, due to its greater political and cultural stability. However, I think that for all the billions of dollars we have poured into the Israeli economy and military, we should expect more concessions to right and reason than the Israelis have thus far been willing to accept. Realistically, does anyone think that Israel would accept a 50% cut in their aid, rather than accede to demands that it expend further efforts to make peace negotiations successful?

I think that at some point in the past, the U.S. should have played a stronger role in encouraging the peace process. Unquestionably, the input of a nation that is not twisted by hatred and adherence to old, even ancient, historical claims is necessary to help both sides make the compromises that will be necessary for any lasting peace. However, at the present, I do not think that the U.S. should make any further efforts to extract concessions from Israel for obtaining a resolution of this matter. To do so would be viewed by the pro-Palestinian terrorists elements, including those behind Tuesdays attacks, to be an affirmation of the effectiveness of terrorism. We should avoid, at all costs, any actions that might lend credence to the terrorists methods, as it will certainly encourage further terrorism.

Both sides need help in accepting a more objective view of the struggles there. Jews can be just as obstinate and blind to the true facts regarding the Middle Eastern problems as the fanatical Moslems. Out of the eight or so Jewish friends with whom I have discussed the politics of the region ( and I have avoided the topic with several others), all but one, perhaps two, have blindly felt that Israel is 100% free from fault. Indeed, over a decade ago, the best man at my wedding questioned whether I was an anti-semite, merely because I stated that there were two sides to the conflict, each with their own justifiable concerns.

Regardless of one's views of the relative fault in the Israel-Palestine conflicts, no rational mind could justify Tuesday's tragedy. Anyone who believes that Islam or any other major religion condones or requires murder and holy war in these circumstances is deranged. Let us hope that these awful mass murders do not inspire new recruits to these terrorist groups or further action by the existing members of such unlawful organizations.
and how do you expect to explain a war involving Israel with
information from an Israeli government website. Read 2/3 of the
way to see why Israel attacked the ship.

Chunin

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html

'The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
by Eric S. Margolis

NEW YORK – On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab Israeli War,
the intelligence ship 'USS Liberty' was steaming slowly in
international waters, 14 miles off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli
armored forces were racing deep into Sinai in hot pursuit of the
retreating Egyptian army.

'Liberty,' a World War II freighter, had been converted into an
intelligence vessel by the top-secret US National Security Agency,
and packed with the latest signals and electronic interception
equipment. The ship bristled with antennas and electronic 'ears'
including TRSSCOMM, a system that delivered real-time intercepts to
Washington by bouncing a stream of microwaves off the moon.

'Liberty' had been rushed to Sinai to monitor communications of the
belligerents in the Third Arab Israeli War: Israel and her foes,
Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over
'Liberty,' which was flying a large American flag. At 1400 hrs,
waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers
repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and
cannon. The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the
ship's electronic antennas and dishes. The 'Liberty' was left
afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay dead, a hundred
seriously wounded, including the captain, Commander William
McGonagle.

At 1424 hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the
burning 'Liberty' with 20mm and 40mm shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli
torpedo hit the 'Liberty' midship, precisely where the signals
intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died.

Israeli gunboats circled the wounded 'Liberty,' firing at crewmen
trying to fight the fires. At 1515, the crew were ordered to
abandon ship. The Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun
fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors
were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth
Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the
White House.

An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes returned.
Commander McGonagle gave the order. 'prepare to repel borders.' But
the Israelis, probably fearful of intervention by the US Sixth
Fleet, departed. 'Liberty' was left shattered but still defiant,
her flag flying.

The Israeli attacks killed 34 US seamen and wounded 171 out of a
crew of 297, the worst loss of American naval personnel from
hostile action since World War II.

Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its
forces had committed a 'tragic error.' Later, Israel claimed it had
mistaken 'Liberty' for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. US
Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head,
Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate
and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one
asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had
personally ordered the attack.

In contrast to American outrage over North Korea's assault on the
intelligence ship 'Pueblo,' Iraq's mistaken missile strike on the
USS 'Stark,' last fall's bombing of the USS 'Cole' in Aden, and the
recent US-China air incident, the savaging of 'Liberty' was quickly
hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert
McNamara.

The White House and Congress immediately accepted Israel's
explanation and let the matter drop. Israel later paid a token
reparation of US $6 million. There were reports two Israeli pilots
who had refused to attack 'Liberty' were jailed for 18 years.

Surviving 'Liberty' crew members would not be silenced. They kept
demanding an open inquiry and tried to tell their story of
deliberate attack to the media. Israel's government worked behind
the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having American
pro-Israel groups accuse 'Liberty's' survivors of being
'anti-Semites' and 'Israel-haters.' Major TV networks cancelled
interviews with the crew. A book about the 'Liberty' by crewman
James Ennes' was dropped from distribution. The Israel lobby
branded him 'an Arab propagandist.'

The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity until last week,
when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of
Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a
stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US
Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the
'Liberty,' electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew
provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they
were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.

Why did Israel try to sink a naval vessel of its benefactor and
ally? Most likely because 'Liberty's' intercepts flatly
contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's beginning on 5 June,
that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel's massive air
assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel
began the war by a devastating, Pearl-Harbor style surprise attack
that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their entire air forces.

Israel was also preparing to attack Syria to seize its strategic
Golan Heights. Washington warned Israel not to invade Syria, which
had remained inactive while Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says
Israel's offensive against Syria was abruptly postponed when
'Liberty' appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked out
of action. Israel's claim that Syria had attacked it could have
been disproved by 'Liberty.'

Most significant, 'Liberty's' intercepts may have shown that Israel
seized upon sharply rising Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June 1967
to launch a long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank,
Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.

Far more shocking was Washington's response. Writes Bamford:
'Despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel attacked the ship
and killed American servicemen deliberately, the Johnson
Administration and Congress covered up the entire incident.' Why?

Domestic politics. Johnson, a man never noted for high moral
values, preferred to cover up the attack rather than anger a key
constituency and major financial backer of the Democratic Party.
Congress was even less eager to touch this 'third rail' issue.

Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his
and his men's heroism – not in the White House, as is usual,
but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew
member's graves were inscribed, 'died in the Eastern
Mediterranean..' as if they had be killed by disease, rather than
hostile action.

A member of President Johnson's staff believed there was a more
complex reason for the cover-up: Johnson offered Jewish liberals
unconditional backing of Israel, and a cover-up of the 'Liberty'
attack, in exchange for the liberal toning down their strident
criticism of his policies in the then raging Vietnam War.

Israel, which claims it fought a war of self defense in 1967 and
had no prior territorial ambitions, will be much displeased by
Bamford's revelations. Those who believe Israel illegally occupies
the West Bank and Golan will be emboldened.

Much more important, the US government's long, disgraceful cover-up
of the premeditated attack on 'Liberty' has now burst into the open
and demands full-scale investigation. After 34 years, the voices of
'Liberty's' dead and wounded seamen must finally be heard.

May 2, 2001

Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2001

Eric Margolis [send him mail] is foreign correspondent for the
Toronto Sun.

Back to LewRockwell.com Home Page
 
The only thing these historic arguments serve to do is keep
the hatred alive, on both sides. Yesterday is gone. It has
no bearing on how many people must die tomorrow, unless it
is used as an excuse. Must tomorrows large promise also be
clouded with blood over the past? If so, then keep up the
rhetoric, fan the flames, and help it happen. Today, there
was no solution. Tomorrow there might be, if the past is let
rest where it belongs, in the past. As a person that watched
the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, and the last decade of
the century roll by, I am constantly amazed, even in the US by
the people that continue to fan the flames of hatred here.
I watch the children in the malls. Two black, two white, and
two hispanic, all shopping and hanging out, laughing together.
This was not possible yesterday either. If all the injustices, real
or imagined, in the worlds history have to be made right, then
only those children know the correct answer. Their history.
Jane helped Akim with his homework tonight, and then he
went and played ball with Ralph, Kialanna, Amad, Jesus, Jamal,
and their friends. Then they all hung out till they had to head
home. That is their history. Shut up and let them have it. It
beats yours and mine all to heck. Will it take another 40 years
before the children of the Middle East can have a history of their
own too?
instead i'll copy paste a nice thing one of the member of a group
list i belong to submmitted:

The following material was written by an American Christian
professor. It's
important information to know since we don't get fair and accurate
reporting
from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily
events.

HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....TAKES JUST
5-15
MINUTES TO READ!!!!
It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew it doesn't
matter.
Thank you.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E.,
two
thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the
modern
State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE ! the Jews have had
dominion over
the
land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land
for the
past! 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no
more than
22
years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.
Jerusalem
has
never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their
capital,
and
Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees. In 1948 the Arab refugees were
encouraged to
leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews.
Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to
Arab
brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is
estimated to be
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is
estimated
to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated
into the
Arab
lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee
group in
the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own
peoples'
lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a
country no
larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight
separate
nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish
nation.
The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost.! Israel defended
itself
each time and won.

14. The P.L.O'S Charter still calls for the destruction of the
State of
Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land,
autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with
weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the
Jews
were
denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and
Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people
of all
faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs--Of the 175 Security Council
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 190,
429 were
directed against Israel.

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed
by the
Jordanians!

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically
desecrated the
ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives! .

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an
apartheid-like policy
of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western
Wall.
How could you compare the pre-state attacks against the british
soldiers and what the palestinians are doing right now ?
Did you spend the time to read the sites I posted? Did you read of
the attacks on Palestinians by Israel? Both Pre-State and
afterwards?
Was there a talk with the british ?
Did they have any right to send people back to germeny to the death
camps ?
They were in israel only to exploit its resources.

Also those action were only directed towards army targets.
No, you didn't read the articles.
No one offered the jewish people here a country (as opposed to what
the palestinians are being offered)
I don't know where you live. For the sake of argument, let's say
Minnesota. Ohio invades Minnesota. You get to have a new home! The
Mohave desert would be nice. Now that's a nice offer isn't it. How
bout Los Angeles. Now that's even a better offer! What'ya mean you
like Minnesota and LA sucks! Sorry. You're going to Los Angeles and
I don't want and static from you.
I get the chills when i hear talks like that and those kind of
comparisons.
I get the chills when people refuse to give credence to the fact
that there are two sides to every story. I get the chills when some
of those facts went to court and were condemned, legally!
It is viewpoints (actually lack of) that precipitated the present
situation. And the beat goes on and on and on and on.
Ok I agree with you. The terrorist organizations were formed by
people who were born crazy. Nothing ever occured to warp these
peoples minds. And, they are warped. Maybe it was drugs? Maybe time
has long past where we need to sit down and study the situation and
find a viable solution.
Col. Custer was considered a hero. History has turned that story
completely around. It took over 100 years before his genocide
methods were finally revealed. Do we need to wait another 100 years
to square away the problems in the Mid East? I know! Ignore them.
They always go away. Don't they?
Oren.
Many of us, too late, are wondering why psychotic organizations
that follow criminals like bin Laden have come into being.
The only way to prevent further spawn of such individuals is to
start playing fair in the Mid East. Every U.N. resolution in favor
of the Palestinians has been ignored! What's the point of having a
U.N?
The reasons for terrorists organizations are many. Wasn't the Shah
of Iran a wonderful person? We (the U.S.) supported that butcher.
I'll leave the research on that creep to the readers of this post.
Here's a short link to the indictment now being sought against
Ariel Sharon. Israel's hero. I feel they should nail this guys
balls to a table and tip him over backwards.
I also demand, for what good it will do, that my representitives
start considering human rights instead of corporate rights. Listen
to your citizens. Look out for the well being of your citizens.
That's your job!
Here's the link to "good ole boy" Ariel Sharon:
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/sharon.htm
 
The Israel/Palestinian problem is explained in this children's book "Dave and the Giant Pickle"; they hated and discriminated each other a long, long time ago.
Hello All !

Since there are a lot of American readers in this forum, I've
decided to write a little thing that would explain why the
Palestinians are liars and blood thirsty.

I will begin at 47- that year the UN decided to end the British

P.S I’m sorry if this is off the subjects of photography, but I had
to speak. Also excuse any spelling mistakes.
 

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