The super zoom advantage....v DSLR Why full frame is overplayed!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Barry Fitzgerald
  • Start date Start date
throw insults at me and you get them back! Its up to you, my views may not be popular with canon people, but at least I can make them! It may seem cool to swing with the guys and agree to everything, it doesnt make for much interest though.
 
You dont let up do you? Do you knuckles scrape the ground when you
walk along?
If I walked along inside a ditch they might, but other wise, no they don't - why, do yours? That's not normal you know, you might want to have that looked at.

I say again. STOP PERSONAL ATTACKS. NOW!

YOU DO THE SAME! NOW! ... and while you're at it, how about stopping these silly little threads of yours too?
Try to relax a little and enjoy denate instead of trying to take
the mickey
I have no idea what is means... what is "denate" and "trying to take the mickey"?
 
For the same system performance, larger sensors are cheaper than
smaller sensors.

To match the performance of a FF sensor, a 1.6x sensor camera has
to use lenses that have 1.6x faster f-stops for the same DOF and
2.25x faster f-stops for the same noise performance. Let's call it
1 stop difference overall for sake of argument.
In a way true, but this is not what he argues. If you read it his post he says that maybe the increse in noise is acceptable and also that the increased DOF may be what you want. In addition, it's actually a market decision. If it was only down to optimal performance, every PRO would go on carying Mamyas and Hasselblads or large format cameras, though this is not what you see att press conferences or football matches.

At some point, the image quality will be good enough even for the pros with less that a FF sensor. Rumor has it that some are buying the D2x and expect to get paid for the pictures ;-). It's allways about "the right tool for the job". I don't find it at all obvious that the right tool for your typical press fotographer is necessarity a DSLR with FF sensor. Even today, photographers are using smaller sensors and getting paid for the pictures. There will however allways be photographers who go for larger mediums for the optical benefits that it offers when the job requires it.

Theres too much talk about megapixels and sensor sizes and too little about if the camera at hand allows you to take the pictures you need or want to take.
Now, which is really cheaper (roughly equivalent systems):
Canon 20D - $1500
16-35/2.8L - $1400
24-70/2.8L - $1140
70-200/2.8L - $1100
85/1.2L - $1500
24/1.4L - $1120
Total - $7760

Canon 5D - $3300
24-105L - $1250
70-200/4L - $650
135/2L - $900
35/2 - $230
Total: $6330

Until you understand that a camera is about the optics and admit
that that point has been explained to you before, you are just
flailing in the wind.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
For the same system performance, larger sensors are cheaper than
smaller sensors.

To match the performance of a FF sensor, a 1.6x sensor camera has
to use lenses that have 1.6x faster f-stops for the same DOF and
2.25x faster f-stops for the same noise performance. Let's call it
1 stop difference overall for sake of argument.
In a way true, but this is not what he argues. If you read it his
post he says that maybe the increse in noise is acceptable
No one is arguing that there isn't a tradeoff. If a smaller sensor is okay for you, then that's fine. A bigger sensor will always be better but I do subscribe to the expression, "good enough is the best".
and also
that the increased DOF may be what you want.
This particular argument is bunk. You can always get just as much DOF with a big sensor as you can with a small one.
In addition, it's
actually a market decision. If it was only down to optimal
performance, every PRO would go on carying Mamyas and Hasselblads
or large format cameras, though this is not what you see att press
conferences or football matches.
Because they're slow, primarily. The above argument also holds here (GEITHB).
At some point, the image quality will be good enough even for the
pros with less that a FF sensor. Rumor has it that some are buying
the D2x and expect to get paid for the pictures ;-).
Well, I sell shots from my 20D. However, I'm probably going to buy a 5D because it can get shots I can't get with my 20D.
It's allways
about "the right tool for the job". I don't find it at all obvious
that the right tool for your typical press fotographer is
necessarity a DSLR with FF sensor. Even today, photographers are
using smaller sensors and getting paid for the pictures. There will
however allways be photographers who go for larger mediums for the
optical benefits that it offers when the job requires it.
As long as people understand the tradeoffs, no problem.
Theres too much talk about megapixels and sensor sizes and too
little about if the camera at hand allows you to take the pictures
you need or want to take.
On an equipment forum, this is to be expected.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
If it was only down to optimal
performance, every PRO would go on carying Mamyas and Hasselblads
or large format cameras, though this is not what you see att press
conferences or football matches.
At some point, the image quality will be good enough even for the
pros with less that a FF sensor.
But I didn't think image quality was the (main) issue. From what I've read, the people who want FF seem more interested in narrow DOF, and the restoration of WA on their "legacy" lenses (carried-over from their film SLRs)
Rumor has it that some are buying
the D2x and expect to get paid for the pictures ;-).
Pull the other one... ;)
There will
however allways be photographers who go for larger mediums for the
optical benefits that it offers when the job requires it.
And that seems to be the root of this thread, the argument (if it even rises to that level of discourse) over whether larger mediums do have an optical benefit.
Theres too much talk about megapixels and sensor sizes and too
little about if the camera at hand allows you to take the pictures
you need or want to take.
Which is one of the things I enjoy about visiting Ken Rockwell's site - granted, his style is not everyone's cup of tea - his frequent statement that it is the photographer not the camera, and giving examples of people taking great shots in bad locations and with bad cameras.
 
Jarek Luberek wrote:
...
and also
that the increased DOF may be what you want.
This particular argument is bunk. You can always get just as much
DOF with a big sensor as you can with a small one.
Sure you can, but you will be carying more glass. Some people seem
not to like that.
Theres too much talk about megapixels and sensor sizes and too
little about if the camera at hand allows you to take the pictures
you need or want to take.
On an equipment forum, this is to be expected.
"Open Talk Forum"?! I guess some leeway regarding the subject doesn't seem unresonable.

jarek
 
Jarek Luberek wrote:
...
But I didn't think image quality was the (main) issue. From what
I've read, the people who want FF seem more interested in narrow
DOF, and the restoration of WA on their "legacy" lenses
(carried-over from their film SLRs)
I too am excited about the arrival of FF sensors (though I don't have any canon stuff, yet :).

However, I'm not entirely sure what excactly drivers this technology. Most probably it is what you say, to fully utilize the 35mm equipment out there. The thing that slightly troubles me is that this equipment is not really so optimal for digital sensors. The issue I'm thinking of is image telecentricity. Perhaps Canon stuff, due to their larger mount diameter, has been designed with that in mind (to some degree) which makes them better positioned to move towards FF sensors. I hear people complaining about corners on the canons which is why I still have some doubts.

...
Which is one of the things I enjoy about visiting Ken Rockwell's
site - granted, his style is not everyone's cup of tea - his
frequent statement that it is the photographer not the camera, and
giving examples of people taking great shots in bad locations and
with bad cameras.
Yes, I too like to visit Ken's webpages, if not for any other reason than seing somebody that's not beating about the bush.

jarek
 
2: A smaller sensor reduces the focal length allowing smaller
bigger zooms, that are also faster. Common is th 36-432mm super
zoom class. Try lugging full frame lenses about for that focal
range!
I have to disagree with this: The zoom lenses on small-sensor superzoom cameras are NOT faster than SLR telezooms, not in any meaningful sense.

They may have smaller F-numbers, which means that they provide brighter illumination at the sensor; but when the illumination is multiplied by the sensor area to obtain the rate of light accumulation, the advantage goes to the larger sensor. For instance, the Panasonic FZ20 (f/2.8) has 2-3 stops LESS light-gathering ability than the Canon 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS on the 1.3x crop 1D Mark II.

To turn this increased light-gathering ability into higher shutter speeds, you must turn up the ISO on the digital SLR. But that's okay; for instance, the FZ20 at ISO 80 forms its image using approximately the same amount of light as the 1D Mark II at ISO 1600. As such, it should not come as a surprise that ISO 1600 is quite usable on the 1D Mark II; maybe a touch noisier than the FZ20 at ISO 80, but it's not a massive difference. Certainly not 4.3 stops' worth.

On the other hand, if you stay at the lower ISO settings on the SLR, you get more dynamic range / less noise than is possible on the superzoom cameras. You are still benefiting from the greater light-gathering ability of the SLR lens, just in a different way. With enough light or slow shutter speeds, the superzoom could do the same, say, at ISO 12, but unfortunately smaller pixels have lower full-well capacities, so with current sensor technology that is not feasible.

Because the difference is in the light-gathering capability of the lens, it will never be neutralized by technological changes. If the next-generation superzoom can produce cleaner images with less light, then the next-generation DSLR will likely do the same. The ISO disparity will remain. And don't expect order-of-magnitude improvements: because of photon shot noise, there is a physical limit to how much image information can be extracted from a given amount of light.

Partly for the reasons described above, it is my opinion that the use of F-numbers to measure lens speed and ISO to measure sensitivity is misleading when comparing cameras with different sensor sizes. These parameters should instead be converted to 35mm equivalents as described at http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=14967397 ;.

As you mentioned, the superzooms also lack the ability to produce shallow depth of field comparable to a digital SLR. On the other hand, the SLR can produce deeper depth of field by stopping down. This does mean throwing away its light-gathering advantage; that advantage comes from its larger apertures, which also bring shallow DOF. But the superzooms have no optical capability that the SLR + telezoom lacks.

What the superzooms do have is much lower size, weight, and cost than digital SLR setups with comparable telephoto reach. Many also have image stabilization systems that partially offset their poor light-gathering ability, permitting their telephoto reach to be used with static subjects in moderately low light. They have their niche in the market, and for some people they are a good choice. But they also have their limitations, and it is important to remain aware of them.

--
Alan Martin
 
Yet alone 500%. What you do not understand is that not everyone
has the same levels of quality that you do. There are some that
actually see the difference between a Gaussian Blur and real
optically formed bokeh. Noise is one aspect. Sharpness is
another. DOF is yet another. Photography as an artistic medium
needs to allow creative freedom within several parameters. There
is no "one-size-fits-all" that you are looking for. For many
(most) the 2/3 sized sensor is more than adequate. For others the
APS-C sized or even FF is a better fit. I still have friends that
do exclusively 4X5 and make a living at it.

You really want the death of 35mm FF for some odd reason. For
many, it is a perfect fit. Why does that bother you so much?

Steven
And this is the only place that can give him the illusion (or delusion) of relevancy.
 
throw insults at me and you get them back! Its up to you, my views
may not be popular with canon people, but at least I can make them!
It may seem cool to swing with the guys and agree to everything, it
doesnt make for much interest though.
But as near as I can see your views are customed tailored to try
to annoy the Canon crowd. Here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=14925124

was the original problem ... and maybe you were genuinely upset
about something there. Maybe.

But all this "FF vs. small sensor" stuff, it's just some giant issue you are
trying to invent to annoy the Canon crowd. Not very mature.
 
I hope I don't regret wading into this but I would like an opinion on one of your points.
............ Remember how big plates were used at
the dawn of photography? Well they went down to 35mm, because the
quality improved. They were dismissed as poor quality at the time.
It would seem logiical that the same could happen to CCD's in the
future.
Well no I don't I am only 45 but, Do you think this may have had more to do with improved Lens machining techniques rather than the media? And although CCD's may get smaller will the limit be on glass technology and how it fits together?

Oh yeah I actually found a very subtle offensiveness in you post. I am not sure if you realise it but I can see how you got the replys you did.

I really can't see the point in debateing these things there is no one solution for everything. Use the camera you want but don't bag anyone for using what they do either. (this is a point in general and is not directed at the OP)

And the future....in photgraphic terms. The only thing you will need to worry about is that we HAVE photos of the present so you can remember the past.

Ian
 

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