The death of digital photography....

Hi Don,

Thanks for posting this amusing link. Pretty obviously a desperate and self-serving attempt to keep the business afloat in the face of digicam and home printing popularity. He/she has some valid points I suppose, for the absolute perfectionist, or professional, but thus far in the 13 months since I bought my 505v, haven't had the urge or need to use my Canon A-1's. I guess I must be foolish and naieve. :-) Curt A.
Check this out....

http://www.wrightphoto.com/DigitalCameras.html

Regards,
Don
--
Clickin & a-grinin,
Don
 
Hi Don,

I find your comparison very accurate: it relly took quite a long time for the automobile to take over the horse (it is often the case with historical events; people get the wrong idea that things change all of a sudden, while in fact there is a significant lag between any invention and it's wide acceptance and application)... So yes, film continues to play an important role, but in the end it will turn out like it did with CDs versus vinyl records...
No reason to get irritated with such issues, time will tell!
Regards ?:-)
Interesting how folks take positions.... I guess the guy that made
horse shoes felt the same way about the automobile..... (That may
not be a good anology for this forum, since film continues to play
a pretty important role)

Thanks for your post,
Don
 
Hi Don,
I find your comparison very accurate: it relly took quite a long
time for the automobile to take over the horse (it is often the
case with historical events; people get the wrong idea that things
change all of a sudden, while in fact there is a significant lag
between any invention and it's wide acceptance and application)...
So yes, film continues to play an important role, but in the end it
will turn out like it did with CDs versus vinyl records...
No reason to get irritated with such issues, time will tell!
Marcel-Etienne,

I predict two digital cameras in ever garage, err ah... home.

Thanks and regards, (^ ^)
Don

Interesting how folks take positions.... I guess the guy that made
horse shoes felt the same way about the automobile..... (That may
not be a good anology for this forum, since film continues to play
a pretty important role)

Thanks for your post,
Don
 
Of course film is still better quality, but it's a pain in the ass. As the post below illustrates, we give some level of quality for an amazing amount of convience.
The idea that someone would willingly spend $1,000 on a
camera which they know will be obsolete in one year is absurd.

Chuck
I'll politely disagree. Will this year's camera be surpassed in
quality by next year's $1,000 cameras? Yep, but that doesn't make
this year's camera obsolete. I expect that many buyers of the
current (soon-to-be-released) crop of $1,000 cameras (G2, F707)
will still be getting great pics from their cameras three or four
or more years from now.
Besides, (though I've never done the math) I expect that if I ever
measured 'value' by the number of 'good snapshots' I'll take during
the next year with the $1,000 digicam that I will be buying
shortly, I would probably end up spending way more than $1,000 a
year in film and developing just to get the same number of 'good
snapshots.' (Good snapshot: a 5x7 that I save and put into the
album because the shot is good, not merely because I spent nearly a
buck to get it developed and printed so I could even see whether it
was a good shot.)
Heck, I borrowed an 'ancient' (obsolete?) .8mp oly for scout camp
this summer, and the result was a great success. The day after
camp, each scout and adult leader ended up with a CD containing a
slide show of the hundreds of shots taken (and saved, rather than
deleted cause the scout wanted to look really cool, and that shot
'makes me look like a nerd'). And this cost less than $10. The
troop budget wouldn't have been able to pay for just the cost of
the film and developing for the hundreds of shots, much less
getting a print (or even a negative) of every shot for every
participant.
I'm not blind, prints from any digicam (prosumer or consumer, or
even professional) won't produce 8x10s of equal quality to a nice
film set-up. But I'm going to enjoy the ride till we get there.
Now, I've just got to choose between the 'dark angel' and the G2.
 
This is probably the most revealing concept in resolution I heard, from the aformentioned site:

"Most photographers do their printing these days with a desktop inkjet printer and the Epson Photo printers are the most popular so I'll use them by way of example. These printers, such as the models 870/1270/2000P are (somewhat misleadingly) listed as 1440 dpi printers. This means that they are capable of laying down that many dots per inch. But, to create a colour image they need to use 6 different inks, so any particular pixel reproduced on a print will be composed of some dithered composite of coloured dots using some or all of these inks. That's why you need more dots from your printer than you have pixels in your image.

If you divide 1440 by 6 you end up with 240. This is the true minimum resolution needed to get a high quality photo-realistic prints from a 1440 dpi Epson printer. Many user, myself included, believe that a 360 ppi output file can produce a somewhat better print. If my original scan is big enough to allow this I'll do so but I don't bother ressing up a file to more than 240 ppi when making large prints."
 
Hi Don,
I find your comparison very accurate: it relly took quite a long
time for the automobile to take over the horse (it is often the
case with historical events; people get the wrong idea that things
change all of a sudden, while in fact there is a significant lag
between any invention and it's wide acceptance and application)...
So yes, film continues to play an important role, but in the end it
will turn out like it did with CDs versus vinyl records...
No reason to get irritated with such issues, time will tell!
Marcel-Etienne,

I predict two digital cameras in ever garage, err ah... home.

Thanks and regards, (^ ^)
Don

Interesting how folks take positions.... I guess the guy that made
horse shoes felt the same way about the automobile..... (That may
not be a good anology for this forum, since film continues to play
a pretty important role)

Thanks for your post,
Don
This is very interesting and funny to say the least.
After looking at that website and reading as to what they had to say.
I got to think about some of my other cameras I own.

I have a Contax G1 rangefinder camera with a few lenses.

But since contax came out with a improved version the G2, does this mean my G1 is Obsolete????????
Well not to me, it is still a very capable camera and does its job.
The same with other cameras I have in my collection.
Lots of them have been replaced by newer technology. But that does not
make them any less than when they were cutting edge,they are tools to do a job.

As to the Nuritsu Frontier System.
It is the best printer I have ever worked with but guess what, it is all Digital
and the printer uses dry chemicals to print with. But I don't know about
the life of those prints.
But then again lots of my prints from the 60's and 70's are fading away too.

BTW. I use a olympus C2100 as my prime digital camera and the prints
with the frontier are just stunning. And much better then some of the stuff
we get from film cameras.
Go figure.

Kind regards

Jorg R Schreier
 
Wrightphoto has crossed a new frontier -- the entire site would have to be a flippin' troll!! As trolls go, though, it's lacking in finesse -- the home page colours say it all and the 50-year prediction provides a fitting coup de grace.

Drive carefully folks, the guy from Wrightphoto might be in the next lane and the life that you save could be yours!! (At least be sure to wear your sunnies.)

Thanks for the link, Don. I wouldn't have missied it for quids!

Mike :-)))
Check this out....

http://www.wrightphoto.com/DigitalCameras.html

Regards,
Don
--
Clickin & a-grinin,
Don
 
I read this obsolete thing all of the time. Listen, because a better camera will be aviable in 12-18 months doesn't mean your camera will cease to work. The problem here is not the technology, but one's understanding of one's own requirements. YOU SHOULD NOT BUY A DIGITAL CAMERA UNTIL ONE COMES ALONG THAT MEETS YOUR REQUIREMENTS. WHen it does, more capable DCs will be released subsequent to it, but you already have one that meets your need. Advancing technology will make one's camera outdated, but not necessarily obsolete. It becomes obsolete when it can no longer perform the function for which you need it to perform. We get bit by techno-lust and lose control of our emotions. This does not have to be.
they've also got a page of facts to back up their claim... are
these points valid?

http://www.wrightphoto.com/Digital-vs-Film.html
Cubfan, wrightphoto has a keen grasp of the obvious. I've never
heard anyone say that DC's produce "better" images than film. So,
who are they trying to convince? Everyone already agrees with
them. The truth here is that DC’s are obviously cutting into
their film related profits, and they refuse to accept this reality.
They’re right about one thing, though. Sony, Canon, Nikon,
Oly, et al., are “taking us to the cleaners” with DC
purchases. The idea that someone would willingly spend $1,000 on a
camera which they know will be obsolete in one year is absurd.

Chuck
 
Of course, this is absurd, isn't it? No real need to spend a lot of time 'proving' that digital photography is so unsatisfactory, unless of course they really know it isn't the case... I own two 35mm SLR cameras, and I have indeed enjoyed using them quite a lot in the past. Now I have turned to digital photography, but although I use it more often I still go back to my 'traditional' cameras when I feel like it. And of course, they give excellent results (but they are much heavier, and with Photoshop I can do much more with my pics than I ever could in the past)... But why bother?
Hi Don,
I find your comparison very accurate: it relly took quite a long
time for the automobile to take over the horse (it is often the
case with historical events; people get the wrong idea that things
change all of a sudden, while in fact there is a significant lag
between any invention and it's wide acceptance and application)...
So yes, film continues to play an important role, but in the end it
will turn out like it did with CDs versus vinyl records...
No reason to get irritated with such issues, time will tell!
Marcel-Etienne,

I predict two digital cameras in ever garage, err ah... home.

Thanks and regards, (^ ^)
Don

Interesting how folks take positions.... I guess the guy that made
horse shoes felt the same way about the automobile..... (That may
not be a good anology for this forum, since film continues to play
a pretty important role)

Thanks for your post,
Don
This is very interesting and funny to say the least.
After looking at that website and reading as to what they had to say.
I got to think about some of my other cameras I own.

I have a Contax G1 rangefinder camera with a few lenses.
But since contax came out with a improved version the G2, does this
mean my G1 is Obsolete????????
Well not to me, it is still a very capable camera and does its job.
The same with other cameras I have in my collection.
Lots of them have been replaced by newer technology. But that does not
make them any less than when they were cutting edge,they are tools
to do a job.

As to the Nuritsu Frontier System.
It is the best printer I have ever worked with but guess what, it
is all Digital
and the printer uses dry chemicals to print with. But I don't know
about
the life of those prints.
But then again lots of my prints from the 60's and 70's are fading
away too.

BTW. I use a olympus C2100 as my prime digital camera and the prints
with the frontier are just stunning. And much better then some of
the stuff
we get from film cameras.
Go figure.

Kind regards

Jorg R Schreier
 
Talk about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing!

Herewith is my contribution. A reference to two pages of one of the
most illuminating digital photography sites of which I am aware. I
recommend that everyone engaged in digital photography visit this
font regularly.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/understanding_resolution.htm
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/sharpness.htm

Not only will you learn the truth, you might be pleasantly surprised.

-Ed

BTW: Thanks, Don, for starting this. It is a subject that needs
more exposure (;¬ þ)
Ed..

Thank you, thank you, thank you for pointing us in the direction of this website. The Photoshop tutorial is worth more than any book I've ever plunked my money down for, and all it cost me was a little bit of ink.
Wonderful!
Lynda
 
Does it really matter that much that film is superior to digital? Will our enjoyment of the pleasure of communing with the digital community disappear if this is true?

In any case, the argument is similar to audio equipment in that most people also believe that CDs are superior to analogue - not a chance at present time! A record album has far superior information to digital, even at present time, and I'm referring to High End digital audio equipment, not the consumer models, which have absolutely no chance of presenting superior information or demonstrating the art of "realism." I still enjoy CDs, but I recognize that they are not nearly as good as they are believed to be. It doesn't prevent me from "bonding" with the emotion of the music, which is the primary reason for listening to it: emotional satisfaction.

Accepting the limitations of any man-created item is simple maturity; attempting to deny the limitations and imperfections of man's creations is an act of arrogance.
 
Remember those people who thought CD's were the death of music? And that vinyl would always sound better?

I imagine this is just a clever parody of those kooks.

Got to admit that the manufacturers are happy about selling more MP's everyyear - but once a certain quality point is reached, the pressure to upgrade won't be there.
 
Accepting the limitations of any man-created item is simple
maturity; attempting to deny the limitations and imperfections of
man's creations is an act of arrogance.
A most eloquent and satisfying summation, Glen. As far as mankind's arrogance goes, I suspect you might have shared my reaction to a slogan that Philips trotted out in the mid 80s -- around the time I bought my first CD player: "Pure, perfect sound forever".

Their marketing gurus were incapable of seeing, of course, that by the use of "perfect" they'd disqualified their company, de facto, from ever again rationally producing an updated model!

Cheers,
Mike

[Ageing Thorens TD125-II, Rega 3, Dynavector 20B2 -- hardly state-of-the-art enthusiast stuff but it's still more musical than any CD I have!]
 
Don M wrote:
Check this out....
http://www.wrightphoto.com/DigitalCameras.html
Regards, Don Don

Hello, I usually only read the PPA forum,
but I couldn't resist replying to this one.

I have used a megapixel camera for many 100s of website images for about 4 years, and digital cameras are neat when used with Photoshop. However, I am patiently waiting

for a 7 or 8 Megapixel camera to "match" my current cameras which include nikon f3hp,

hasselblad 500el, and a fuji6x9. I am now waiting for my nikon 8000ed film scanner

to give me digital image files up to 300-400 mbytes per image. then I can run them through photoshop and not loose "too" much photo information.
For all the fun I have had shooting digital, and all the fun you are having

roasting Wrightphoto, I would rather side with Wrightphoto. Shoot leaves OR grass

with a digital, and all you get are pixels. The detail is gone. I suspect film will still be a choice for some shooters, including myself.
Now you can go after me. And if you have new real information, I will reply.
aka Mark C
 
Check this out....

http://www.wrightphoto.com/DigitalCameras.html

Regards,
Don
--
Clickin & a-grinin,
Don
Don,

Your header, "The death of digital photography" threw me a bit until I read the Wrightphoto page and saw that they stated DCs represent the death of photography as an art form. I don't agree with them either. As many here in this thread ( an excellent and informative one, by the way) have stated digital vs. film is more about an individuals wants and needs than anything else. For some (I include myself in this catagory) it's all about the end result. If I can produce an 8x10 image with my DC and my printer here at home that meets my standards then I am satisfied. I have many more prints hanging on my walls and on the walls of friends and family from my DC than I have from all three of my 35 mms combined. I'm not a pro, and perhaps a pros wants and needs are different, but DCs have eliminated the need for me to maintain my darkroom (b&W, never got into developing color) or spending a lot of cash or time on photolabs. For my personal needs, this is what makes digital photography so much fun. The other major change is that I have many 8x10s now then with film, the costs dictated that everything was 4x5s or 5x7s. With regard to quality, a couple of months ago I set up my Canon AE1 next to my Sony and shot about 30 shots each of the same scene from slightly different angles. After having the prints processed, I mixed them in with my shots from my DC and showed them to friends. Even after I pointed out that they were taken by differnt cameras, no one could tell the difference. Perhaps with 8x10s they could have, but I didn't go to the expense to find out. Add this to the fact that you can send an image almost anywhere in the world in almost an instant, and I think DC's are here to stay despite Wrightphoto. Will my gear become obsolete? I dunno. Perhaps if I try to keep up with someone else. I think I have a long way to go before my ability matches what my cameras, both digital and film, are able to produce. The fact that I WANT the new 707 (oh baby) does not mean that I really NEED it. To me obsolecence is demonstrated by the TV I have sitting next to me in my office. An old Sears that I bought while in college too many years ago to think about. It has been serving me faithfully for a long time, giving up it's place of honor in the living room to bigger screens and better sound, but still providing quality service nonetheless. So what happens, the cable company goes digital, 100+ channels, and my poor old Sears is headed for camp and a roof antenna because it can only receive 40. I hope this never happens to my digicams. Well enough rambling, thanks for staring a great discussion.

Larz
 
The real analogy is with the introduction of digital music on CDs. There are still folks out there that only listen to old-fashioned LPs and, yes, they may be right that one or two specs of the analogue version are better than the digital one.
HI Curt,

Interesting how folks take positions.... I guess the guy that made
horse shoes felt the same way about the automobile..... (That may
not be a good anology for this forum, since film continues to play
a pretty important role)

Thanks for your post,
Don
 
What I find most ironic is they're passing judgement on art with a webpage that looks like it was coded by following the "Sesame Street" guide to HTML.
Remember those people who thought CD's were the death of music? And
that vinyl would always sound better?

I imagine this is just a clever parody of those kooks.

Got to admit that the manufacturers are happy about selling more
MP's everyyear - but once a certain quality point is reached, the
pressure to upgrade won't be there.
 

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