Need Working Pro

mikeb said:

Your question implies you consider yourself a "pro" - so behave
like a professional: do not ask questions in a helpless newbie way.

1.Download full-size E-10 samples (from a number of review sites,
dpreview included), and decide for yourself
2. Make a search in E-10, printing, and professional forums and see
what you come up with.

Agressively demanding others do your work for you while information
is easily available is not a very bright way to go about it, is it?

mikeb

Click to expand...

David said:

I need to hear from a Working Pro who uses the E-10. I dont want
theory, dreamy thoughts, I want real advise. Can I get tack sharp
8x10's from the E-10. I shoot weddings, portraits, and special
events. Most of my customers will not go larger than 8x10 and maybe
an occasional 11x14 or 16x20. Can I get the larger pictures using
Genuine Fractules. Will these prints be saleable? I can buy an
entire system for the E-10 for $10,000 but to buy the Canon d-30
the cost goes way up. Please Help.

Click to expand...

mikeb said:

Your question implies you consider yourself a "pro" - so behave
like a professional: do not ask questions in a helpless newbie way.

1.Download full-size E-10 samples (from a number of review sites,
dpreview included), and decide for yourself
2. Make a search in E-10, printing, and professional forums and see
what you come up with.

Agressively demanding others do your work for you while information
is easily available is not a very bright way to go about it, is it?

mikeb

Click to expand...

Gerald M. Payne said:

You're welcome, David. I think many here have made very good
points! I hope you've seen some of the wedding photos posted in
this forum in the last month or so? David Weikel, among others,
had some nice ones that featured the church as well as the
couple... What a building! He has some good info on his site
concerning add-on lenses and other accessories, esp. some info
about the FL-40 Flash, a hyperfocal distance table for the E-10,
and info about a Canon cord that works with the FL-40 for
off-camera flash on a stroboframe in his case. Check it out:
http://davidweikel.com/E10_samples/index.shtml

Good luck whichever way you go. I think an E-10 can be used to
shoot weddings, but it will take some getting used to it's foibles
like anything else.(I'm sure a D1X would be tough cold...) I'm
betting the E-10's hinted at successor will be even better and the
experience gained with the E-10 and exposure for digital etc. will
set you up to be well ready for it as well as nicely prepared with
a backup e-10 or two when you get the new baby.

One last thought. I'm not sure who to give credit for this, I've
read a few sites advising people about weddings, but one of the
better non-obvious tips I saw was regarding locating the dimmers in
churches and halls in advance and taking control of them by
stationing someone there or by judicious use of gaffers tape or the
like and signs warning of dire consequences... Seemed like a
very common sense way to keep from going way too low into the
murkiness of high ISO problems. It's even the sort of thing I'd
get in writing and point out to the bride in advance. It seems to
me every little concession in advance helps- better than surprises
later! I think the, "Brides are beautiful! It'd be a shame if no
one could see that beautiful dress you've paid SO much for..."
might help. ;-)

Oh, so much for that accounting praise, I forgot the Lumiquest
bouncer! A must for soft light, and high church ceilings, it
seems.

Good Luck!

David said:

Gerald M. Payne said:

I'll start out by stating I'm not a PRO. But I do "Tinker" in most
things that interest me.

I'd start out by comparing print samples from the Kodak and the
P400 for yourself. If you think the QUALITY is good enough, don't
sweat the size issue. It's a pretty minor difference and can be
solved by simply stating you're selling 8x10" "sized" prints. An
asterisk and the obligatory fine print would cover the actual
dimensions. I believe the paper ends up the same size, it's just a
border issue anyhow? Framing might be more of a challenge, but
I'll bet they'd look better with a properly sized mat anyway.

I have a friend who does weddings who just sold his Nikon D1 and is
waiting for a D1X(dust?) that had a Kodak 86XX Dye sub. I'm not
positive it was the newer model -it may have been a generation
back, but he basically said, "forget it, buy a P400!" when I asked
him where he bought his and how he liked it after having it a
while.(his per page cost was a few hairs lower than the P400 too!)
That should tell you something.

Further, the fact that an earlier poster said that he was running a
business with three of them(P400s) should count for something.
Were it me with your budget, I'd buy 2 Oly E-10s, a couple of
P400s(there is a $500 or so rebate out now per E-10 when a P400 is
bought in the same time period!) and a nice fast Athlon based PC
with a lot of memory or a MAC if you're oriented that way.(I'm
betting most 1GHz plus PCs could keep two printers humming along.)
Color calibration should be toward the top of your list with
Photoshop as well as whatever lenses, flashes, studio strobes, etc,
you may not already have. I bet with a bit of judicious shopping
around you could do the whole shebang for under $8K FROM SCRATCH!
By bringing those $800+ P400s down to $300+ with the E-10 rebates
it becomes a very good buy! There's nothing like putting a grand
back in your pocket...

If you can get the printing farmed out for a decent cost and can
live with the results then sell a P400 and put another $6-700 back
in the pocket.

$3000 Qty 2 E-10s
$800 Qty 2 P400's(around $400 each after rebate)
$1200 PC
$600 Adobe
$300 calibration solution
$800 lenses (wide, 1.45X, 3.0X)
$300 FL-40
$400 LIPO grip/charger
$350 Qty 2 256K CF cards
$300 SIMA IMAGE BANK w/20GB drive
$200 more and make it a Nixvue
---------
you get the idea...

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Jason Busch said:

David,

Well, Gerald beat me on that race.
If the pictures look great, 8x10 or "almost" 8x10 isn't going to
matter. You may also consider an Epson 2000P or 1280 as a backup to
your P400. The Epsons will print BIG prints that look amazing. I've
seen'em. Just can't afford one yet. Eventhough they are around
$500-$750. I have too many E-10 accessories.

I would at least grab a P400 for now.

BTW, the cost on the ribbon replacements for the 8660 could net you
another P400.

I think the word "Kodak" means "Very Damn Expensive" in Eskimo.

Jason Busch

Click to expand...

Stew said:

Don't mind the unhelpful ilk which sometimes visit this forum. for
the most part, we are a very friendly bunch. I am not a working
pro, so in that light I can't help you. However, I am wondering
what in the world you are buying to add up to a $10,000 E-10
system? If you are talking lights, editing software the camera,
etc. then I can maybe grasp that. However, if all you plan to do is
shoot weddings & portaits, then you won't need the TCON-300 and may
not need the TCON-14 unless you need to shoot speakers on stage at
a distance or maybe airshow shots.
As an unqualified non-professional advanced amateur (whew) I can
tell you that I have shot portraits with the E-10 with fantastic
results.

Hope this helps.

Stew

David said:

I need to hear from a Working Pro who uses the E-10. I dont want
theory, dreamy thoughts, I want real advise. Can I get tack sharp
8x10's from the E-10. I shoot weddings, portraits, and special
events. Most of my customers will not go larger than 8x10 and maybe
an occasional 11x14 or 16x20. Can I get the larger pictures using
Genuine Fractules. Will these prints be saleable? I can buy an
entire system for the E-10 for $10,000 but to buy the Canon d-30
the cost goes way up. Please Help.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Steve said:

Just to add my two cents to the discussion on printers:

For any photographer with even a moderate volume of work, I think
it is totally unrealistic to even attempt to bring all your
printing in-house. It's a case of false economy. From a business
standpoint, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean it's wise.

I am especially thinking of wedding photographers. If you're
producing several hundred images per event, where are you going to
find the TIME to manage all those pix, proof them, show them, color
correct them, and then print them yourself? Assuming you'd find
that time, why would you want to spend $6000 for a printer, plus
the cost of supplies, to produce prints that will only save you a
few cents over what you'd pay a pro lab to produce those same
prints on photo paper using their $300,000 printer? It just doesn't
make sense to me from a business standpoint, unless you are in
business more for the pure joy of it rather than trying to build
that business. You will never make as much money in the "darkroom"
as you would if you spent that time on sales, marketing, or
otherwise improving the quality of the photography itself.

If you absolutely must do some of your own printing, save that
either for proofing (which you can do on a simple inkjet) or for
special situations. For example: rush jobs, where people are paying
you a premium for that service, such as Christmas pix on December
23rd, or high school senior pix just before the yearbook deadline.

Bottom line: before you spend the money, make sure you've got
business coming in the door to pay for all that gear -- AND MAKE A
PROFIT IN THE PROCESS. It's much better to take it slow and buy
only what you NEED, rather than buying first and hoping you can
find the customers.

Steve Herzog
http://www.4incite.com -- information for wedding/portrait photographers

Click to expand...

Steve said:

Just to add my two cents to the discussion on printers:

For any photographer with even a moderate volume of work, I think
it is totally unrealistic to even attempt to bring all your
printing in-house. It's a case of false economy. From a business
standpoint, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean it's wise.

I am especially thinking of wedding photographers. If you're
producing several hundred images per event, where are you going to
find the TIME to manage all those pix, proof them, show them, color
correct them, and then print them yourself? Assuming you'd find
that time, why would you want to spend $6000 for a printer, plus
the cost of supplies, to produce prints that will only save you a
few cents over what you'd pay a pro lab to produce those same
prints on photo paper using their $300,000 printer? It just doesn't
make sense to me from a business standpoint, unless you are in
business more for the pure joy of it rather than trying to build
that business. You will never make as much money in the "darkroom"
as you would if you spent that time on sales, marketing, or
otherwise improving the quality of the photography itself.

If you absolutely must do some of your own printing, save that
either for proofing (which you can do on a simple inkjet) or for
special situations. For example: rush jobs, where people are paying
you a premium for that service, such as Christmas pix on December
23rd, or high school senior pix just before the yearbook deadline.

Bottom line: before you spend the money, make sure you've got
business coming in the door to pay for all that gear -- AND MAKE A
PROFIT IN THE PROCESS. It's much better to take it slow and buy
only what you NEED, rather than buying first and hoping you can
find the customers.

Steve Herzog
http://www.4incite.com -- information for wedding/portrait photographers

Click to expand...

David said:

Stew said:

Don't mind the unhelpful ilk which sometimes visit this forum. for
the most part, we are a very friendly bunch. I am not a working
pro, so in that light I can't help you. However, I am wondering
what in the world you are buying to add up to a $10,000 E-10
system? If you are talking lights, editing software the camera,
etc. then I can maybe grasp that. However, if all you plan to do is
shoot weddings & portaits, then you won't need the TCON-300 and may
not need the TCON-14 unless you need to shoot speakers on stage at
a distance or maybe airshow shots.
As an unqualified non-professional advanced amateur (whew) I can
tell you that I have shot portraits with the E-10 with fantastic
results.

Hope this helps.

Stew

David said:

I need to hear from a Working Pro who uses the E-10. I dont want
theory, dreamy thoughts, I want real advise. Can I get tack sharp
8x10's from the E-10. I shoot weddings, portraits, and special
events. Most of my customers will not go larger than 8x10 and maybe
an occasional 11x14 or 16x20. Can I get the larger pictures using
Genuine Fractules. Will these prints be saleable? I can buy an
entire system for the E-10 for $10,000 but to buy the Canon d-30
the cost goes way up. Please Help.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Ray said:

mikeb said:

Your question implies you consider yourself a "pro" - so behave
like a professional: do not ask questions in a helpless newbie way.

1.Download full-size E-10 samples (from a number of review sites,
dpreview included), and decide for yourself
2. Make a search in E-10, printing, and professional forums and see
what you come up with.

Agressively demanding others do your work for you while information
is easily available is not a very bright way to go about it, is it?

mikeb

Click to expand...

Mike, are you a braying ass naturally, or do you have to work at it?
You presume an awful lot...

Click to expand...

David said:

Steve said:

Just to add my two cents to the discussion on printers:

For any photographer with even a moderate volume of work, I think
it is totally unrealistic to even attempt to bring all your
printing in-house. It's a case of false economy. From a business
standpoint, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean it's wise.

I am especially thinking of wedding photographers. If you're
producing several hundred images per event, where are you going to
find the TIME to manage all those pix, proof them, show them, color
correct them, and then print them yourself? Assuming you'd find
that time, why would you want to spend $6000 for a printer, plus
the cost of supplies, to produce prints that will only save you a
few cents over what you'd pay a pro lab to produce those same
prints on photo paper using their $300,000 printer? It just doesn't
make sense to me from a business standpoint, unless you are in
business more for the pure joy of it rather than trying to build
that business. You will never make as much money in the "darkroom"
as you would if you spent that time on sales, marketing, or
otherwise improving the quality of the photography itself.

If you absolutely must do some of your own printing, save that
either for proofing (which you can do on a simple inkjet) or for
special situations. For example: rush jobs, where people are paying
you a premium for that service, such as Christmas pix on December
23rd, or high school senior pix just before the yearbook deadline.

Bottom line: before you spend the money, make sure you've got
business coming in the door to pay for all that gear -- AND MAKE A
PROFIT IN THE PROCESS. It's much better to take it slow and buy
only what you NEED, rather than buying first and hoping you can
find the customers.

Steve Herzog
http://www.4incite.com -- information for wedding/portrait photographers

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Richard Goulden said:

The whole point of event photography is to get the framed print in
the customers hand within a few minutes of taking the shot.
Personalised especially for them. We sell 95% of anything that we
shoot by doing it that way and - guess what? There is no printing
to do - the customers already have the prints and I have their
money, in cash, or cheque in my pocket! On team shots I can run a
dozen prints in about 20 minutes from the P400 and drop them
straight in the mail.

If you are running hundreds of shots, say for a school, by all
means use a lab - I agree. On a wedding, I would post images on the
web, or maybe a cd, for people to order, but for instant prints, on
demand I do them myself. Simple, and nobody else to rely on.

If you have a batch of P400s (I have two) I can churn out 40 odd
A4s per hour. Don't forget that you can offer different sizes on
that sheet of A4 so that 1 7x5s and a bunch of wallets are
possible. Takes about 20 seconds more to prepare.

Regards,

Richard

David said:

Steve said:

Just to add my two cents to the discussion on printers:

For any photographer with even a moderate volume of work, I think
it is totally unrealistic to even attempt to bring all your
printing in-house. It's a case of false economy. From a business
standpoint, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean it's wise.

I am especially thinking of wedding photographers. If you're
producing several hundred images per event, where are you going to
find the TIME to manage all those pix, proof them, show them, color
correct them, and then print them yourself? Assuming you'd find
that time, why would you want to spend $6000 for a printer, plus
the cost of supplies, to produce prints that will only save you a
few cents over what you'd pay a pro lab to produce those same
prints on photo paper using their $300,000 printer? It just doesn't
make sense to me from a business standpoint, unless you are in
business more for the pure joy of it rather than trying to build
that business. You will never make as much money in the "darkroom"
as you would if you spent that time on sales, marketing, or
otherwise improving the quality of the photography itself.

If you absolutely must do some of your own printing, save that
either for proofing (which you can do on a simple inkjet) or for
special situations. For example: rush jobs, where people are paying
you a premium for that service, such as Christmas pix on December
23rd, or high school senior pix just before the yearbook deadline.

Bottom line: before you spend the money, make sure you've got
business coming in the door to pay for all that gear -- AND MAKE A
PROFIT IN THE PROCESS. It's much better to take it slow and buy
only what you NEED, rather than buying first and hoping you can
find the customers.

Steve Herzog
http://www.4incite.com -- information for wedding/portrait photographers

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

gordon said:

The only stupid questions are the ones that are not asked.

Click to expand...

mikeb said:

gordon said:

The only stupid questions are the ones that are not asked.

Click to expand...

I do completely agree with that - it's not shameful not to know,
it's bad to boast self-importantly while in fact being ignorant, or
hide your lack of knowledge to "safe one's face" etc.

However in case of the original poster it was that snotty attitude
I reacted against - tell me all (even simple) things (that I won't
move a finger to look for myself), and "I dont want theory, dreamy
thoughts, I want real advise" (sic, he does not even know
difference between "advice" and "to advise").

The subsequent bray just proves the first impression of a stupid
and agressive person was completely right. I do not know how
photographing homicides could contribute to advancement of his
skills as a photographer, but it certainly affected him on another
level - in the second comment this David person began to sound
positively homicidal.

I pefer more intelligent posters who do not demand answers from
other people listing lots of conditions, but display honest
intellectual curiosity.

mikeb

Click to expand...

Richard Goulden said:

The whole point of event photography is to get the framed print in
the customers hand within a few minutes of taking the shot.
Personalised especially for them. We sell 95% of anything that we
shoot by doing it that way and - guess what? There is no printing
to do - the customers already have the prints and I have their
money, in cash, or cheque in my pocket! On team shots I can run a
dozen prints in about 20 minutes from the P400 and drop them
straight in the mail.

If you are running hundreds of shots, say for a school, by all
means use a lab - I agree. On a wedding, I would post images on the
web, or maybe a cd, for people to order, but for instant prints, on
demand I do them myself. Simple, and nobody else to rely on.

If you have a batch of P400s (I have two) I can churn out 40 odd
A4s per hour. Don't forget that you can offer different sizes on
that sheet of A4 so that 1 7x5s and a bunch of wallets are
possible. Takes about 20 seconds more to prepare.

Regards,

Richard

David said:

Steve said:

Just to add my two cents to the discussion on printers:

For any photographer with even a moderate volume of work, I think
it is totally unrealistic to even attempt to bring all your
printing in-house. It's a case of false economy. From a business
standpoint, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean it's wise.

I am especially thinking of wedding photographers. If you're
producing several hundred images per event, where are you going to
find the TIME to manage all those pix, proof them, show them, color
correct them, and then print them yourself? Assuming you'd find
that time, why would you want to spend $6000 for a printer, plus
the cost of supplies, to produce prints that will only save you a
few cents over what you'd pay a pro lab to produce those same
prints on photo paper using their $300,000 printer? It just doesn't
make sense to me from a business standpoint, unless you are in
business more for the pure joy of it rather than trying to build
that business. You will never make as much money in the "darkroom"
as you would if you spent that time on sales, marketing, or
otherwise improving the quality of the photography itself.

If you absolutely must do some of your own printing, save that
either for proofing (which you can do on a simple inkjet) or for
special situations. For example: rush jobs, where people are paying
you a premium for that service, such as Christmas pix on December
23rd, or high school senior pix just before the yearbook deadline.

Bottom line: before you spend the money, make sure you've got
business coming in the door to pay for all that gear -- AND MAKE A
PROFIT IN THE PROCESS. It's much better to take it slow and buy
only what you NEED, rather than buying first and hoping you can
find the customers.

Steve Herzog
http://www.4incite.com -- information for wedding/portrait photographers

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

mikeb said:

gordon said:

The only stupid questions are the ones that are not asked.

Click to expand...

I do completely agree with that - it's not shameful not to know,
it's bad to boast self-importantly while in fact being ignorant, or
hide your lack of knowledge to "safe one's face" etc.

However in case of the original poster it was that snotty attitude
I reacted against - tell me all (even simple) things (that I won't
move a finger to look for myself), and "I dont want theory, dreamy
thoughts, I want real advise" (sic, he does not even know
difference between "advice" and "to advise").

The subsequent bray just proves the first impression of a stupid
and agressive person was completely right. I do not know how
photographing homicides could contribute to advancement of his
skills as a photographer, but it certainly affected him on another
level - in the second comment this David person began to sound
positively homicidal.

I pefer more intelligent posters who do not demand answers from
other people listing lots of conditions, but display honest
intellectual curiosity.

mikeb

Click to expand...

David said:

mikeb said:

gordon said:

The only stupid questions are the ones that are not asked.

Click to expand...

I do completely agree with that - it's not shameful not to know,
it's bad to boast self-importantly while in fact being ignorant, or
hide your lack of knowledge to "safe one's face" etc.

However in case of the original poster it was that snotty attitude
I reacted against - tell me all (even simple) things (that I won't
move a finger to look for myself), and "I dont want theory, dreamy
thoughts, I want real advise" (sic, he does not even know
difference between "advice" and "to advise").

The subsequent bray just proves the first impression of a stupid
and agressive person was completely right. I do not know how
photographing homicides could contribute to advancement of his
skills as a photographer, but it certainly affected him on another
level - in the second comment this David person began to sound
positively homicidal.

I pefer more intelligent posters who do not demand answers from
other people listing lots of conditions, but display honest
intellectual curiosity.

mikeb

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Brian Mackey said:

And what he prefer's does not apply to most of us.. We are here to
help.

Ask away

regards

David said:

mikeb said:

gordon said:

The only stupid questions are the ones that are not asked.

Click to expand...

I do completely agree with that - it's not shameful not to know,
it's bad to boast self-importantly while in fact being ignorant, or
hide your lack of knowledge to "safe one's face" etc.

However in case of the original poster it was that snotty attitude
I reacted against - tell me all (even simple) things (that I won't
move a finger to look for myself), and "I dont want theory, dreamy
thoughts, I want real advise" (sic, he does not even know
difference between "advice" and "to advise").

The subsequent bray just proves the first impression of a stupid
and agressive person was completely right. I do not know how
photographing homicides could contribute to advancement of his
skills as a photographer, but it certainly affected him on another
level - in the second comment this David person began to sound
positively homicidal.

I pefer more intelligent posters who do not demand answers from
other people listing lots of conditions, but display honest
intellectual curiosity.

mikeb

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...