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[pics] SD10 vs. 20d sample

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I guess it may be a byproduct of me using a Canon 300D, but for me, I prefer the 20D shot. Actual color accuracy aside, I think the SD-10's colors are less pleasing to the eye.

Let me illustrate:
  • The dog: In the SD-10 shot, it looks too yellow for my liking
  • Red pepper: As pointed out, the SD-10's is undersaturated
  • Book: The 20D's in this case is undersaturated for my liking
  • Drum, liquor bottle: Both seem undersaturated in the SD-10
I guess what I'm trying to say is that both are very capable cameras that, with the right adjustments, will produce very similar results when it comes to colour reproduction. Ideally, the SD-10 will produce slightly better results in terms of accuracy, but those results won't be THAT much better, if processed correctly.
 
Just for fun, this was a comparision of the two lenses in Shutter Pri with 1/60th sec selected:



 
What is the sharpening setting for 20D, spperently you are using RAW for SD10 and applying sharpening as well, while 20D shot seems to have little to none sharpening?
dr.noise said:
20D + 50/1.4:



SD10 + 50/2.8 EX upsampled to 8mp:



Both shots made at F11, 1/200, ISO100.
20D shot saved from C1Pro, low noise reduction, no sharpening.
I saved SD10 shot double-size from SPP, then resized to 8mp in
ACDSee. I also tried saving same size then bicubic upsample in PS,
but got absolutely identical result.

Originals saved as 100% JPG:



; (20D; 8.7 mb)



; (SD10; 8.17 mb)

RAW files:
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG_0802.CR2 (20D; 8.4 mb)
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG07695.X3F (SD10; 8.04 mb)

Probably the SD10 shot could be upsampled better with less
aliasing. I was thinking about pulling sharpness setting back to
-1.0 before upsampling. You can try raw files yourselves.

About color: I didn't do any precise color management as my goal
was to compare details. 20D was shot on Auto WB and it got white
sheet right. So I assumed there is no need for further processing.
SD10 on Auto WB produced bluish white sheet, so I switched to
Custom WB.

And for what we have: 20D shot is mostly wrong except white sheet.
Striped cloth on the left is pinkish, should be more yellow like on
SD10 shot (spot on!), the toy dog is pinkish too (SD10 spot on),
blues are lighter than needed. Yellow stripe on the magazine cover
is too pale and wrong hue. SD10's one is right, but slightly
oversaturated. The red pepper of SD10 is right but a bit pale,
20D's is well-saturated but too orange. Yellow pepper is good on
both shots. I must note that reference white sheet is white on both
shots.
Click to expand...
 
Why not resize the Canon to double Sigma size?
That would be more fair

jac
robcad said:
dr.noise said:
20D + 50/1.4:



SD10 + 50/2.8 EX upsampled to 8mp:



Both shots made at F11, 1/200, ISO100.
20D shot saved from C1Pro, low noise reduction, no sharpening.
I saved SD10 shot double-size from SPP, then resized to 8mp in
ACDSee. I also tried saving same size then bicubic upsample in PS,
but got absolutely identical result.
Click to expand...
For what is worth, I never use "averaging" algorithm to upsample
Foveon generated files, if you do, you ruin the sharp edges
available from the Foveon in the sampled pixels and turn out
introducing a Bayer-like effect in the picture.
It's much much better to use "fractals" or S-spline Algorithms in
my experience. My workflow (simplified with no noise removal) is to
output tiff (8 or 16 bit) same size from SPP and THEN upsample (if
needed), then save in jpeg (if needed). The results are much
cleaner with very little blurring. Certainly comparable to the 20D.
For your SD10 samples, I suggest to try output same size from SPP
and then use S-Spline algorithm (eg from PhotoZoom) or something
similar (Lanczos algorithm can also be an option). You will get
results comparable (maybe even better) to the second "improved
workflow" 20D sample. Many thanks for the effort!
Regards
Roberto
Click to expand...
 
spm said:
Michael,
I think you need to read some of the posts above before jumping
into any conclusion.
s
Click to expand...
read all the posts,
what i was thinking and thinking.

i don't think, its closest to the real life color.

i go by RGB values for best print for colors
and i think SPP can't find a correct WB!
spm said:
MEwwwing said:
dr.noise said:
20D + 50/1.4:



SD10 + 50/2.8 EX upsampled to 8mp:

Click to expand...
on the SD10 i ran Selective Colors> Yellow> O, O, -28, +2

.



nice job Dr.

--
changing Handle to BCh250-255 soon.
http://www.qix.net/~eash/shooting_by_histogram.htm
Michael
SD10, 24-70mm EX, 70-200mm EX, 20mm EX, 2x TC, Flash 500 DG Super
SA-N
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
changing Handle to BCh250-255 soon.
http://www.qix.net/~eash/shooting_by_histogram.htm
Michael
SD10, 24-70mm EX, 70-200mm EX, 20mm EX, 2x TC, Flash 500 DG Super SA-N
 
dr.noise said:
20D + 50/1.4:



SD10 + 50/2.8 EX upsampled to 8mp:



Both shots made at F11, 1/200, ISO100.
20D shot saved from C1Pro, low noise reduction, no sharpening.
I saved SD10 shot double-size from SPP, then resized to 8mp in
ACDSee. I also tried saving same size then bicubic upsample in PS,
but got absolutely identical result.

Originals saved as 100% JPG:



; (20D; 8.7 mb)



; (SD10; 8.17 mb)

RAW files:
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG_0802.CR2 (20D; 8.4 mb)
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG07695.X3F (SD10; 8.04 mb)

Probably the SD10 shot could be upsampled better with less
aliasing. I was thinking about pulling sharpness setting back to
-1.0 before upsampling. You can try raw files yourselves.

About color: I didn't do any precise color management as my goal
was to compare details. 20D was shot on Auto WB and it got white
sheet right. So I assumed there is no need for further processing.
SD10 on Auto WB produced bluish white sheet, so I switched to
Custom WB.

And for what we have: 20D shot is mostly wrong except white sheet.
Striped cloth on the left is pinkish, should be more yellow like on
SD10 shot (spot on!), the toy dog is pinkish too (SD10 spot on),
blues are lighter than needed. Yellow stripe on the magazine cover
is too pale and wrong hue. SD10's one is right, but slightly
oversaturated. The red pepper of SD10 is right but a bit pale,
20D's is well-saturated but too orange. Yellow pepper is good on
both shots. I must note that reference white sheet is white on both
shots.
Click to expand...
--

Do me a favor use your histogram correct, wich is best and who beat the sh*t out of who.

I am using Adobe CS, here are the settings.

Canon colour temp 4300 should be 4450, tint+5 correct+2,sat+11 correct15.

Sigma colour temp 5600 correct 5400, tint-17 correct-13,sat0,correct+5.

If you dont have AdobeCS, I am shure other have, try those setting and the result is different, at last you can use auto level, I did not, no sharping, no noise reduction.
Canon



Sigma



Jens Ritzlau
http://www.pbase.com/ritzlau
 
When you download the RAW file convert them blow them up to max
there is now question wich is most sharp and wich lens is best
Jens Ritzlau
 
review histograms.
SPP left the shadows on the wall
and so did the 20D's.

20D to the top left
SD10 to the top right
and what happens when you pull the RGB shadows off the wall on the SD10.

SPPv1 in Auto - the green channel did not follow the dark histogram.
SPP2 in Auro - the Green Channel follows dark histogram.
SPP still does a bad job at the shadows end.

and you still have to push the right Hi-ight hump to the right wall to get a Bright Print.

i think SPP has a ways to go. i would rather have another update on SPP then a new camera come out.
" notice canons RGB bunched histogram. "
its how Canon software works VS, Sigmas software
MEwwwing said:
About color: I didn't do any precise color management as my goal was > to compare details. 20D was shot on Auto WB and it got white sheet > right.
Click to expand...
its closer then SD10's Color
MEwwwing said:
So I assumed there is no need for further processing.
Click to expand...
se Histogram Shadows RGBs are on wall
MEwwwing said:
SD10 on > Auto WB produced bluish white sheet, so I switched to > Custom WB.
Click to expand...
Hey - i agree. SPP didn't find WB. it gave it a bath of yellow pixie dust.
MEwwwing said:
And for what we have: 20D shot is mostly wrong except white sheet. > Striped cloth on the left is pinkish, should be more yellow like on SD10 > shot (spot on!),
Click to expand...
examine Histograms
MEwwwing said:
the toy dog is pinkish too (SD10 spot on), blues are > lighter than > needed. Yellow stripe on the magazine cover is too pale > and wrong > hue. SD10's one is right, but slightly oversaturated. The red > pepper of > SD10 is right but a bit pale, 20D's is well-saturated but too > orange. > Yellow pepper is good on both shots. I must note that > reference > white sheet is white on both shots.
Click to expand...
sorry Dr, Noise. ya did a good job on the Sharpeness of lenses. but they do need a touch up.

and this is what i've said about the pictures sigma gives. its got a strong WB cast. and they are DARK prints unless ya pump up the RGBs.



--
changing Handle to BCh250-255 soon.
http://www.qix.net/~eash/shooting_by_histogram.htm
Michael
SD10, 24-70mm EX, 70-200mm EX, 20mm EX, 2x TC, Flash 500 DG Super SA-N
 
pyatak said:
SigmaSD9 said:
Which is more accurate? Who cares, the point is that there is a
difference.
Click to expand...
now that is the funny answer. to determine which lens have which
tint you should care which one of pictures is more accurate...
Click to expand...
Which lens is more accurate isn't/wasn't the question, the comparision was presented between cameras. The cameras are seeing two significantly different pictures, so you can't draw a conclusion.
 
SigmaSD9 said:
SigmaSD9 said:
SigmaSD9 said:
Which is more accurate? Who cares, the point is that there is a
difference.
Click to expand...
now that is the funny answer. to determine which lens have which
tint you should care which one of pictures is more accurate...
Click to expand...
Which lens is more accurate isn't/wasn't the question, the
Click to expand...
well all i've tried to say is that you cannot determine which lens have color tint if you didn't saw original scene. you insisted that sd10 pic has yellow tint despite author statement that it has correct colors.
SigmaSD9 said:
comparision was presented between cameras. The cameras are seeing
two significantly different pictures, so you can't draw a
conclusion.
Click to expand...
yes i vote for fair comparison with both hands! and i even have some thoughts on how to do it. we should use exactly same lens, not just same type lens. i'm in process of converting kenko 12mm extension tube from eos to sa mount so we can use the same canon 50/1.4 lens on both 20d (with kenko 12mm tube) and sd10 (with converted tube). this way lens should not affect our comparison (we don't need infinity focus for this anyway). what do you think?
 
CO is not very good at accurate primary colors with 20d. ACR is much better.

Shots like these really show this up. You should do a competent exposure with ACR and compare if you are interested.

You must competently sharpen nearly all 20d shots to properly evaluate detail, if only to just compensate for Bayer sensor.

--len
dr.noise said:
20D + 50/1.4:



SD10 + 50/2.8 EX upsampled to 8mp:



Both shots made at F11, 1/200, ISO100.
20D shot saved from C1Pro, low noise reduction, no sharpening.
I saved SD10 shot double-size from SPP, then resized to 8mp in
ACDSee. I also tried saving same size then bicubic upsample in PS,
but got absolutely identical result.

Originals saved as 100% JPG:



; (20D; 8.7 mb)



; (SD10; 8.17 mb)

RAW files:
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG_0802.CR2 (20D; 8.4 mb)
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG07695.X3F (SD10; 8.04 mb)

Probably the SD10 shot could be upsampled better with less
aliasing. I was thinking about pulling sharpness setting back to
-1.0 before upsampling. You can try raw files yourselves.

About color: I didn't do any precise color management as my goal
was to compare details. 20D was shot on Auto WB and it got white
sheet right. So I assumed there is no need for further processing.
SD10 on Auto WB produced bluish white sheet, so I switched to
Custom WB.

And for what we have: 20D shot is mostly wrong except white sheet.
Striped cloth on the left is pinkish, should be more yellow like on
SD10 shot (spot on!), the toy dog is pinkish too (SD10 spot on),
blues are lighter than needed. Yellow stripe on the magazine cover
is too pale and wrong hue. SD10's one is right, but slightly
oversaturated. The red pepper of SD10 is right but a bit pale,
20D's is well-saturated but too orange. Yellow pepper is good on
both shots. I must note that reference white sheet is white on both
shots.
Click to expand...
--
--len
 
pyatak said:
SigmaSD9 said:
pyatak said:
pyatak said:
Which is more accurate? Who cares, the point is that there is a
difference.
Click to expand...
now that is the funny answer. to determine which lens have which
tint you should care which one of pictures is more accurate...
Click to expand...
Which lens is more accurate isn't/wasn't the question, the
Click to expand...
well all i've tried to say is that you cannot determine which lens
have color tint if you didn't saw original scene. you insisted that
sd10 pic has yellow tint despite author statement that it has
correct colors.
pyatak said:
pyatak said:
comparision was presented between cameras. The cameras are seeing
Click to expand...
two significantly different pictures, so you can't draw a
conclusion.
Click to expand...
yes i vote for fair comparison with both hands! and i even have
some thoughts on how to do it. we should use exactly same lens,
not just same type lens. i'm in process of converting kenko 12mm
extension tube from eos to sa mount so we can use the same canon
50/1.4 lens on both 20d (with kenko 12mm tube) and sd10 (with
converted tube). this way lens should not affect our comparison (we
don't need infinity focus for this anyway). what do you think?
Click to expand...
Sounds fine, or you could use the Sigma 50 EX for both.
 
Arash Hazeghi said:
What is the sharpening setting for 20D, spperently you are using
RAW for SD10 and applying sharpening as well, while 20D shot seems
to have little to none sharpening?
Click to expand...
No sharpening for both.

Sigma shot has some weak sharpening after resize, this is what ACDsee always does. However, there are no sharpening halos yet.

But the sharpened Canon version (with halos already visible) was shown here. Check the "Yo! stop the horses" sub-thread.

You can also download RAW files and play with them.
 
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