My point is that its not the SD10 that is making the pic more yellow, it's the lens. You see the same difference in color presentation in the viewfinders.
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[pics] SD10 vs. 20d sample
- Thread starter dr.noise
- Start date
There is an obvious difference, sorry. That difference is mostly lenses. If you prefer the yellower tint, fine.hahaha, you are trying to argue with person who can actually see
this dog (it's not a bear) with his own eyes in exact light
conditions. if you preffer this dog to be pink not yellow it
doesn't mean that sigma lens wrong
ghoerdt
Senior Member
... really have a lot of time today
I tried to equalize the colours in both files.
Both were imported with ACR this time, everything set to zero, colour at 5000.
I then upsized the Sigma to Canon level, and equalized the colours with the graytool in levels, based on the white space in the letter "d" to get equal colour balance.
It is quite interesting, how the reds and yellows are rendered this time, compared with the SPP rendering.
Remark: sharpness and resolution are no issue this time ...
Canon above, Sigma below:
I tried to equalize the colours in both files.
Both were imported with ACR this time, everything set to zero, colour at 5000.
I then upsized the Sigma to Canon level, and equalized the colours with the graytool in levels, based on the white space in the letter "d" to get equal colour balance.
It is quite interesting, how the reds and yellows are rendered this time, compared with the SPP rendering.
Remark: sharpness and resolution are no issue this time ...
Canon above, Sigma below:
Dr.,
Could you possibly post the photo of the native resolution (as shot not interpolate)...I would like to see how each really do without it...
thx,
s
Could you possibly post the photo of the native resolution (as shot not interpolate)...I would like to see how each really do without it...
thx,
s
20D + 50/1.4:
SD10 + 50/2.8 EX upsampled to 8mp:
Both shots made at F11, 1/200, ISO100.
20D shot saved from C1Pro, low noise reduction, no sharpening.
I saved SD10 shot double-size from SPP, then resized to 8mp in
ACDSee. I also tried saving same size then bicubic upsample in PS,
but got absolutely identical result.
Originals saved as 100% JPG:
; (20D; 8.7 mb)
; (SD10; 8.17 mb)
RAW files:
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG_0802.CR2 (20D; 8.4 mb)
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG07695.X3F (SD10; 8.04 mb)
Probably the SD10 shot could be upsampled better with less
aliasing. I was thinking about pulling sharpness setting back to
-1.0 before upsampling. You can try raw files yourselves.
About color: I didn't do any precise color management as my goal
was to compare details. 20D was shot on Auto WB and it got white
sheet right. So I assumed there is no need for further processing.
SD10 on Auto WB produced bluish white sheet, so I switched to
Custom WB.
And for what we have: 20D shot is mostly wrong except white sheet.
Striped cloth on the left is pinkish, should be more yellow like on
SD10 shot (spot on!), the toy dog is pinkish too (SD10 spot on),
blues are lighter than needed. Yellow stripe on the magazine cover
is too pale and wrong hue. SD10's one is right, but slightly
oversaturated. The red pepper of SD10 is right but a bit pale,
20D's is well-saturated but too orange. Yellow pepper is good on
both shots. I must note that reference white sheet is white on both
shots.
pyatak
Active member
we are not talking about personal preferences. if you look at the dog and it is yellow then with correct white balance it should be yellow on the shot. if you got correct colors on the shot than there is no tint.
pyatak
Active member
we all have professional calibrated monitors don't we?
wishful thinking
but since we all agree that 20d shot looks pinkier and sd10 yellower our monitors differences should not be a problem...
You would think so, but I've found you usually can't digitally fix the total color balance difference. The wavelengths the lens let though are quite different and that difference isn't linear.
The reality is you'll get much closer to the same color results with the Canon lens on the Sigma.
A color cast can't be fully WB'd away. But the bigger issue is that there is a significant color difference produced by the lenses, you can try to compare camera color and draw al sorts of conclusions, but with this variable it is futile.
Here is an example of the same scene shot with the SD9 in both cases. On the top is Canon's color balance, on the bottom is Sigma's. Processing is the identical for both. I'd post some 50 comparisions but I have to dig a little first, my Sigma 50 EX hit ebay shortly after getting the 50/1.4.
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16066660-O.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16066658-O.jpg
Which is more accurate? Who cares, the point is that there is a difference.
Renamed the thread in case anyone is interested.
A color cast can't be fully WB'd away. But the bigger issue is
that there is a significant color difference produced by the
lenses, you can try to compare camera color and draw al sorts of
conclusions, but with this variable it is futile.
Here is an example of the same scene shot with the SD9 in both
cases. On the top is Canon's color balance, on the bottom is
Sigma's. Processing is the identical for both. I'd post some 50
comparisions but I have to dig a little first, my Sigma 50 EX hit
ebay shortly after getting the 50/1.4.
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16066660-O.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16066658-O.jpg
Which is more accurate? Who cares, the point is that there is a
difference.
J. Michael
Veteran Member
Love to have the X3F's for those 2 pix if it can be worked out.
Mike
Mike
A color cast can't be fully WB'd away. But the bigger issue is
that there is a significant color difference produced by the
lenses, you can try to compare camera color and draw al sorts of
conclusions, but with this variable it is futile.
Here is an example of the same scene shot with the SD9 in both
cases. On the top is Canon's color balance, on the bottom is
Sigma's. Processing is the identical for both. I'd post some 50
comparisions but I have to dig a little first, my Sigma 50 EX hit
ebay shortly after getting the 50/1.4.
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16066660-O.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16066658-O.jpg
Which is more accurate? Who cares, the point is that there is a
difference.
20d shot is already native resolution.
SD10 shot I can upload tomorrow, but meanwhile you can download the X3F file and process it.
http://zdg.ru/tmp/200502/IMG07695.X3F (SD10; 8.04 mb)
Yes, now that you pointed it out I can see it too. But reviewing image in SPP I can see a lot of details there. ACR seems to clip them rather hard by default. So it's completely a matter of processing. I am not very familiar with ACR as I'm using SPP all the time.
You should choose another area for looking at differences. The red curved area on the Bailey's label is reflective surface. I used flash so there are reflected highlights. Since I needed to correct for SD10's different crop factor and different height and different viewfinder coverage, I moved the tripod, so this area is not identical to 20D and may really be harsher.
Where I see 20D's advantage is finer threads in the white sheet, SD10 meets its resolution limit there. However, red "23" near the statue's face is better with SD10. So I cannot tell the clear winner. That will depend on subject and other conditions.
J. Michael
Veteran Member
is the detail in some of the highlights. Look at the specular highlights on the maracca and the drum. Seems like there is more detail in those highlight areas in the SD10 picture.
Greater dynamic range or difference in processing?
Greater dynamic range or difference in processing?
Good poiint!
robcad
Active member
For what is worth, I never use "averaging" algorithm to upsample Foveon generated files, if you do, you ruin the sharp edges available from the Foveon in the sampled pixels and turn out introducing a Bayer-like effect in the picture.20D + 50/1.4:
SD10 + 50/2.8 EX upsampled to 8mp:
Both shots made at F11, 1/200, ISO100.
20D shot saved from C1Pro, low noise reduction, no sharpening.
I saved SD10 shot double-size from SPP, then resized to 8mp in
ACDSee. I also tried saving same size then bicubic upsample in PS,
but got absolutely identical result.
It's much much better to use "fractals" or S-spline Algorithms in my experience. My workflow (simplified with no noise removal) is to output tiff (8 or 16 bit) same size from SPP and THEN upsample (if needed), then save in jpeg (if needed). The results are much cleaner with very little blurring. Certainly comparable to the 20D. For your SD10 samples, I suggest to try output same size from SPP and then use S-Spline algorithm (eg from PhotoZoom) or something similar (Lanczos algorithm can also be an option). You will get results comparable (maybe even better) to the second "improved workflow" 20D sample. Many thanks for the effort!
Regards
Roberto
Frits Thomsen
Senior Member
First of all, congratulations to Dr. Noise for a very well thought- out comparison. Well done.
One might argue that the Canon had all the advantages ;
It is the native resolution of 20D , while the Sd10 will have to upsample..with all the risks that presents..
Furthermore the canon lens is undoubtedly much better than the Sigma...
Well I have allways expected these two cameras to be about equal...
But ...YES YES YES the Sigma clearly beats the sh*t out of the Canon....
Despite all the advantages , the 20D proves to be a distant nomber 2...
What a great day this is.!!!!
Frits Thomsen
See my pictures at
http://www.pbase.com/yoicz
One might argue that the Canon had all the advantages ;
It is the native resolution of 20D , while the Sd10 will have to upsample..with all the risks that presents..
Furthermore the canon lens is undoubtedly much better than the Sigma...
Well I have allways expected these two cameras to be about equal...
But ...YES YES YES the Sigma clearly beats the sh*t out of the Canon....
Despite all the advantages , the 20D proves to be a distant nomber 2...
What a great day this is.!!!!
Frits Thomsen
See my pictures at
http://www.pbase.com/yoicz
I had to dig these out of my recycle bin, which is why they have the funky file names.
These are both shot with an SD9 and both have identical shot parameters and SPP settings. Both were AF'd with a half press repeatedly on the nutcracker's left hand until no lens movement, then MF selected, then slightly recomposed on the tripod for an MLU shot.
Aside from the obvious fact that the 50EX front focused anyway, and it lets a full half a stop less light through with the exact same shutter speed and aperture selected, the point I want to make here is that the "pink vs yellow" color issue is mostly, if not completely, a lens phenomenon.
Any test with these two lenses as a variable is simply unfair, sorry. I'll leave it to you to guess which lens is which:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16263575-O.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16263572-O.jpg
These are both shot with an SD9 and both have identical shot parameters and SPP settings. Both were AF'd with a half press repeatedly on the nutcracker's left hand until no lens movement, then MF selected, then slightly recomposed on the tripod for an MLU shot.
Aside from the obvious fact that the 50EX front focused anyway, and it lets a full half a stop less light through with the exact same shutter speed and aperture selected, the point I want to make here is that the "pink vs yellow" color issue is mostly, if not completely, a lens phenomenon.
Any test with these two lenses as a variable is simply unfair, sorry. I'll leave it to you to guess which lens is which:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16263575-O.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/16263572-O.jpg
Frits Thomsen
Senior Member
--First of all, congratulations to Dr. Noise for a very well
thought- out comparison. Well done.
One might argue that the Canon had all the advantages ;
It is the native resolution of 20D , while the Sd10 will have to
upsample..with all the risks that presents..
Furthermore the canon lens is undoubtedly much better than the
Sigma...
Well I have allways expected these two cameras to be about equal...
But ...YES YES YES the Sigma clearly beats the sh*t out of the
Canon....
Despite all the advantages , the 20D proves to be a distant nomber
2...
What a great day this is.!!!!
Frits Thomsen
See my pictures at
http://www.pbase.com/yoicz
Frits Thomsen
See my pictures at
http://www.pbase.com/yoicz
I can email them to you if your mailbax can handle it.
J. Michael
Veteran Member
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