Why not an Av+Tv mode?

You know the situation: shooting sports in low light or changing light. Yo know you need at least that speed, so you set up Tv and play with apperture. Of course, there's a cloud passing and you have to stop and change the ISO.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a mode where you can set both Tv and Av and the body would change the ISO according to the metering? It would spare me a lot of button pressing, at least.

Stephan

--
------------------------
Stephan F. - Brussels, Belgium
http://www.forseilles.net/

Stephan Fo. said:

You know the situation: shooting sports in low light or changing
light. Yo know you need at least that speed, so you set up Tv and
play with apperture. Of course, there's a cloud passing and you
have to stop and change the ISO.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a mode where you can set both Tv and
Av and the body would change the ISO according to the metering?
It would spare me a lot of button pressing, at least.

Click to expand...

Neat idea, but I don't think that modulating ISOs would yield enough range. You can modulate shutter speed from upwards of 30 secs to less than 1/4000 sec (in some cases, up to 1/8000 sec). Similarly, apperature can move from the lower limit of the lens all the way through the upper limit (typically from, say, f/4.5 through f/22, but varies by lens). With ISO, you have 5 or 6 choices for digital cameras - ISO 100 through ISO 1600 (or 3200).

There's one problem with this; when you change the aperture from 4.0 to 5.6 or exposure time from 1/500 sec to 1/400 sec it does not affect the picture quality. But when you change ISO from 100 to 3200 picture quality will change.

Of course that ISO mode (you called it Av+Tv mode) would be handy - you are not forced to use it if you don't want to...

Doug

yubyub said:

Neat idea, but I don't think that modulating ISOs would yield
enough range. You can modulate shutter speed from upwards of 30
secs to less than 1/4000 sec (in some cases, up to 1/8000 sec).
Similarly, apperature can move from the lower limit of the lens all
the way through the upper limit (typically from, say, f/4.5 through
f/22, but varies by lens). With ISO, you have 5 or 6 choices for
digital cameras - ISO 100 through ISO 1600 (or 3200).

Click to expand...

Generaly, when shooting sports, your're struggling between 1/250 and 1/750 at max aperture. So it would only be a metter of moving between ISO400 to 1600, in 1/3d increments.

Stephan

--
------------------------
Stephan F. - Brussels, Belgium
http://www.forseilles.net/

Al Kaponen said:

There's one problem with this; when you change the aperture from
4.0 to 5.6 or exposure time from 1/500 sec to 1/400 sec it does not
affect the picture quality. But when you change ISO from 100 to
3200 picture quality will change.

Click to expand...

I could live with an 'auto-ISO' that goes between 400 and 1600. It's generaly enough to get 1/500 at f2.8 in any normal sports condition (except bedroom sport ).

Al Kaponen said:

Of course that ISO mode (you called it Av+Tv mode) would be handy -
you are not forced to use it if you don't want to...

Click to expand...

Of course.

--
------------------------
Stephan F. - Brussels, Belgium
http://www.forseilles.net/

Stephan Fo. said:

Generaly, when shooting sports, your're struggling between 1/250
and 1/750 at max aperture. So it would only be a metter of moving
between ISO400 to 1600, in 1/3d increments.

Click to expand...

Heh. For those situations, it sounds like it may be a neat idea.

Gonna hack some firmware?

It has been discussed before. For sports though it seems like I'm always at ISO1600 anyway and can't let the camera lower the ISO because I would then lose the little control of shutter speed I have now. I can see the usefulness though, in slightly better light than I normally have. Maybe more for wildlife than for sports actually.

• Anders @ http://www.andersostberg.com * http://www.pbase.com/andersostberg *

Stephan Fo. said:

You know the situation: shooting sports in low light or changing
light. Yo know you need at least that speed, so you set up Tv and
play with apperture. Of course, there's a cloud passing and you
have to stop and change the ISO.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a mode where you can set both Tv and
Av and the body would change the ISO according to the metering?
It would spare me a lot of button pressing, at least.

Stephan

--
------------------------
Stephan F. - Brussels, Belgium
http://www.forseilles.net/

Click to expand...

Stephan Fo. said:

Wouldn't it be nice to have a mode where you can set both Tv and
Av and the body would change the ISO according to the metering?

Click to expand...

Depends on the details of the implementation (A-DEP, for example, would be something very useful; but the implementation on the 20D is just horrible).

But ISO has become much more important on digital cameras. in digital photography, ISO has become a parameter while with film cameras, it was more of a constant.

I believe that the whole exposure metering department will experience an overhaul anyway sooner or later. For example, much more sophisticated metering characteristics than "evaluative" would make use of the information in live histogram.

For the time being, I could live with being able to see ISO in the viewfinder (like on the 1DII, for example). I I would also appreciate an additional ergonomic input (like the large wheel at the back) for the ISO setting.

Two things I miss on occasion; your "ISO wheel" and a more convenient mirror lockup

• Anders @ http://www.andersostberg.com * http://www.pbase.com/andersostberg *

Louis4444 said:

Louis4444 said:

Wouldn't it be nice to have a mode where you can set both Tv and
Av and the body would change the ISO according to the metering?

Click to expand...

Depends on the details of the implementation (A-DEP, for example,
would be something very useful; but the implementation on the 20D
is just horrible).

But ISO has become much more important on digital cameras. in
digital photography, ISO has become a parameter while with film
cameras, it was more of a constant.

I believe that the whole exposure metering department will
experience an overhaul anyway sooner or later. For example, much
more sophisticated metering characteristics than "evaluative" would
make use of the information in live histogram.

For the time being, I could live with being able to see ISO in the
viewfinder (like on the 1DII, for example). I I would also
appreciate an additional ergonomic input (like the large wheel at
the back) for the ISO setting.

Click to expand...

Louis4444 said:

For the time being, I could live with being able to see ISO in the
viewfinder (like on the 1DII, for example). I I would also
appreciate an additional ergonomic input (like the large wheel at
the back) for the ISO setting.

Click to expand...

I'd love to see the ISO in the viewfinder--and we have had the ability to set the ISO with the large wheel on the D60--they took it away with the 10D when they put the ISO button on top. I like using it with the D60, but since I shoot now primarily with the 10D I forget about it with the D60 most of the time. I would love to see it reimplemented. The top ISO button on the 10D is a real stretch for me when I'm using the grip/strap--my fingers are not as long as most men's.

Diane
--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

FretNoMore said:

and a more
convenient mirror lockup

Click to expand...

Yes, that would be fine with me too.

Personally, I highly prefer "button"-oriented interfaces to "menu-oriented". The ideal interface for me would be "one button for each function" and one general dial to change the function values. Of course, the more important functions should be positioned at more ergonomic positions on the body than others. Final goal should be to be able to "control" the camera without having to remove it from the eyes.

But that's just me, and there are also trade-offs (more buttons make it more diifcult to seal the body etc.)

Stephan Fo. said:

You know the situation: shooting sports in low light or changing
light. Yo know you need at least that speed, so you set up Tv and
play with apperture. Of course, there's a cloud passing and you
have to stop and change the ISO.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a mode where you can set both Tv and
Av and the body would change the ISO according to the metering?
It would spare me a lot of button pressing, at least.

Click to expand...

Or maybe better... let's have it as an option for Tv: you set the speed and the metering deals with the apperture. If it can't get the right speed at largest apperture, the system could push the ISO one or two stops up to compensate. Wouldn't that be nice?

If the body has no more noise at ISO 200 than at ISO 100, I have no problem considering 1/500-f2.8-ISO200 being equivalent to 1/500-f1.8-ISO100.

Stephan

--
------------------------
Stephan F. - Brussels, Belgium
http://www.forseilles.net/

The 1D and 1DMkII both have the ability to display the ISO in the viewfinder. In fact, that is the way I have both of my bodies optioned. It displays the ISO on the top display and the viewfinder with remaining-shots being displayed on the rear LCD.

Diane B said:

Louis4444 said:

For the time being, I could live with being able to see ISO in the
viewfinder (like on the 1DII, for example). I I would also
appreciate an additional ergonomic input (like the large wheel at
the back) for the ISO setting.

Click to expand...

I'd love to see the ISO in the viewfinder--and we have had the
ability to set the ISO with the large wheel on the D60--they took
it away with the 10D when they put the ISO button on top. I like
using it with the D60, but since I shoot now primarily with the 10D
I forget about it with the D60 most of the time. I would love to
see it reimplemented. The top ISO button on the 10D is a real
stretch for me when I'm using the grip/strap--my fingers are not as
long as most men's.

Diane
--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

Click to expand...

I was thinking on similar lines about a year ago and made a post here

Basically given the high speed microprocessors in camera, it should be possible to have many different exposure modes that just Av and Tv.

A) Theres the idea you propose of variable ISO that I wold really love.

B) But even Av = fixed aperture and Tv = fixed time seem to be limiting given that it would be so easy to incorporate some really crazy modes that would suit certain situations.

How about a fuzzy logic routine or a lookup table exposure that can implement something like :

I would rather shoot at 1/250 where I know I will surely freeze the action, but if light is low, I can allow speeds as slow as 1/80. Play with the ISO but dont go over ISO 800. Vary the Aperture, but give me atleast a DOF of 3 feet by taking into account the subject distance reported by the Lens

Above logic is useful in many situations like Drama, where the lighting changes continuously.

All numbers above should be variables that can be entered ( from a PC) earlier on.

C) Heck, even a table where I could tell my Camera vary aperture but only within a particular range but in case correct exposure not possible, change shutter speed would be nice

Suppose i have a cheapo lens that is sharp after F/5.6 even though max is F/4. I wish I had an exposure mode where I set up speed to lets say 1/200 and the camera chooses aperture. If it needs more light after reaching F/5.6, It should read my rule and actually slow down the shutter rather than open up the lens.