Pentax *istDS advantages over Canon EOS300D

Metal subframe
300D has a metal subframe, although I prefer the plastic used on
the *ist DS there's little difference in build between them.
So why is the 300D so much bigger but the same weight - i.e. lower
density ? Shots of it in pieces show it doesn't have a chasis as
such.

Stuff the materials. The Pentax has a solid feel, the Canon doesn't
I have both. To me there is nothing about the Rebel D that seem to not be solid. I think if it were black everyone would think it felt solid.
But the Rebel D goes down to 100
Only useful if it's usable.
Based on the *ist-D, I'd say it was especially in combination with
neat image
SD memory
Advantage? Many don't see it that way.
Yes, advantage. I've never met a 10D owner who'd bought a 300D to
go with it. There are some *ist-D owners who are saying "oh dear I
was hoping for a cheap body and I can't use my CF", but they're no
the target customer. The target customer probably has a compact (if
they have digitial at all) and it probably has SD. It's a plus for
them
Standard batteries (Another advantage for those moving from non-SLR
or from film)
Again this isn't really an advantage, the 300D's Lithium-Ion pack
lasts much better than 'standard batteries' ever could.
Well I've always chickened out at about 600 shots, but I've never
seen a battery warning on the *ist-D. I don't think the 300D does
as well as that.

Assume your camera battery runs out. You can put any old AAs in the
Pentax. With the Canon you need to go back to your charger.
third party batteries for the Canon DSLR's are very inexpensive so there is no reason not to have several extra ones. They are very powerful and retain their charge far far longer than Nickel metal hydride batteries do.

--
Dave Lewis
 
Metal subframe
300D has a metal subframe, although I prefer the plastic used on
the *ist DS there's little difference in build between them.
I think it comes down to how substantial this sub frame is:

In the 300D it appears metal is at strategic places based on
pictures at:
http://pacificheight.com/canon/canonDR.htm

The Pentax has a complete metal sub frame based on the photo found at

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0914/pentax1.htm
I personally think plastic is a much better camera material. It is much more resilient and takes shock and impact much better. Drop an all metal point and shoot in the gravels and see how many dents in the metal you end up with. Drop a plastic one and see pretty much nothing at all. A couple years ago, I literally threw my Fuji 2600 into the gravels in my driveway. I was shocked to find hardly even a scratch on it. I bumped the corner of a Canon S10 against my chair arm and put a big dent in it. Plastic is nonconductive and its shock resistence protects fragile internal circuits from both shock and static electricity. Plastic is stronger and lighter than the metal subframe used in the Rebel D probably. I think the only reason DSLR cameras have the metal subframe at all is to support the camera when it is attached to really long lenses.
--
Dave Lewis
 
Isn't the Sony lithium battery the only one that does this? I was under the impression that other ones like Canon's 511's and Oly's BLM's were of the dumb variety.
You have a actual way too gage remaining life with the newer
Lithium Ion batt packs. You'll know before you ever reach this
point.
 
.. we should compare them by holding both in hands and taking a few
shots and I think many ppls would forget the 300D at once. If the
prices are close for both, the *ist DS will be a no-brainer
(suppose the *ist DS and the *ist D are close enough in
built-quality and response - the two most terrible things about the
300D)
Hmm, do you own and use both cameras. I do. I don't know what you mean by either of those things. Actually the Rebel D is faster in response than the *istD, primarily because of faster focusing speed. Build quality is a totally subjective thing. I'll bet if the Rebel D were black no one would even talk about build quality. The build quality of both my cameras is superb in my mind.
--
Dave Lewis
 
Or is this all based on hearsay?

I know you haven't used the *istDs
And also, the 300D is very difficult to hold. The shape of it
seems clunky to me. The front right hand side is small and very
curved and I have a hard time getting my fingers in the right
place. The *istD (and the *istDS looks the same) is designed so
that it naturally fits right in your hand. Just personal
preferences.
Well that's for sure. The first thing I had to get used to with the *istD is the shallow hand hold. The Rebel D gives me a much much more confident grip on it than the *istD does. Definitely personal preference.
--
Dave Lewis
 
I think everybody has overlooked one of the primary differences - the instant on capability of the Pentax. I find myself waiting and waiting for that four or five seconds to pass while the Rebel D comes out of sleep.
--
Dave Lewis
 
I was just discussing the relative virtues of the 300D and what we
know about the *istDS. Overall, I was recommending that she wait
and look at the *istDS because I felt it would be a better camera.
My one hesitation is that I feel Canon has the lead in sensor
design. When it comes time to move up, Pentax (Nikon and
Konica-Minolta) will likely still be stuck with whatever Sony is
making.
The 20D sensor is compelling and highlights Canon's ability to keep
sensor technology moving forward.
I doubt a small company like Pentax will ever be able to drive censor technology either by making their own or supplying a market of sufficient magnitude to demand something special from major manufacturers.

I compare Pentax to Apple. They make an attractive user friendly package that has an almost cult following.
--
Dave Lewis
 
Dave, try reading the followup posts. Most of these were already corrected.
Before Canon comes out with something new, lets list Pentax *istDS
advantages over Canon EOS300D for the target market of those
upgrading from low-end film SLR or digital non-SLR.

Here's what we know so far based on the preview.
Please add or change if you see something I didn't - this was just
a quick look.

Metal subframe
both have it
DOF preview
both have it
I'm holding them side by side here and they look about the same to me
210,000 pixel LCD
Smaller
yep
definitely not with similar lenses. The Rebel D is very very light
Higher-magnification viewfinder
yep and much brighter with the *istD
More frames burst (larger buffer)
but the Rebel D makes up for it with much faster focus
higher max ISO
Yep, but it doesn't go down to 100 like the Rebel D does
Most of us never connect the camera directly to the computer
anyway, we use a card reader
SD memory
I think the SD cards are an advantage over compact flash
Standard batteries (Another advantage for those moving from non-SLR
or from film)
Definitely a disadvantage. Smaller and more powerful Lion batteries
are definitely a better choice. The one in the Rebel D is about the
size of two AA's and will give you nearly as many shots as the four
AA's in the *istd. That is one area where Pentax could make their
camera smaller and lighter.
Larger sensor: 1.5 FOV crop
No practical difference there.

--
Dave Lewis
 
I think the choice is clear here, then: Whatever you decide to buy make sure it's something else than 300D - just to annoy your boss.

Tell him that you didn't like his crippled down camera ... And real DSLRs are black ... And that Canon makes copiers, don't they ... ;-)

sonny
But I like your balloon photos. Really cheered up my day :-) Thank
you. I took a look at your other galleries, too. I think your work
is great.

... though there seemed to be a dust particle on the 300D sensor ;-)

sonny
I spent a day with a 300D taking balloon shots.
http://www.pbase.com/dazedgonebye/balloons
When I first held it, I was not in love. By the time I was a few
frames in, chasing balloons around, I no longer noticed it. It was
just another camera in my hands.
Ergonomics are highly subjective and, unless something is truly
horrible, you can get used to anything pretty quickly.
Steven Maniscalco
http://www.pbase.com/dazedgonebye
 
Tell him that you didn't like his crippled down camera ... And real
DSLRs are black ... And that Canon makes copiers, don't they ... ;-)

sonny
But I like your balloon photos. Really cheered up my day :-) Thank
you. I took a look at your other galleries, too. I think your work
is great.

... though there seemed to be a dust particle on the 300D sensor ;-)

sonny
I spent a day with a 300D taking balloon shots.
http://www.pbase.com/dazedgonebye/balloons
When I first held it, I was not in love. By the time I was a few
frames in, chasing balloons around, I no longer noticed it. It was
just another camera in my hands.
Ergonomics are highly subjective and, unless something is truly
horrible, you can get used to anything pretty quickly.
Steven Maniscalco
http://www.pbase.com/dazedgonebye
--
Steven Maniscalco
http://www.pbase.com/dazedgonebye
 
I think the choice is clear here, then: Whatever you decide to buy
make sure it's something else than 300D - just to annoy your boss.

Tell him that you didn't like his crippled down camera ... And real
DSLRs are black ... And that Canon makes copiers, don't they ... ;-)
I have used a 300D. It takes nice, sharp photos. It actually is a good camera at a good price. Yeah, it may be silver and black, but so is my Pentax K1000.

Pentax makes surveying equipment, don't they? Well, Leica does too. ;-)
 
Agreed. I'll continue to use AA as I don't find the bulk annoying at all (have to carry the flashgun anyway!)

As pointed in my other post on this thread, Li-Ion rechargeable CR-V3 are available. I'll try it sometime and see how it performs.

Cheers all!
Li-Ion outlasts NiMH.
Li-Ion holds more charge.

We have had NiMH in proprietary batteries before, and none of the
above prevents manufacturers from using Li-Ion technologies in AA
batteries.
True. As long as something is rechargeable then I see it as
advantageous over standard Alkalines.
Thus, it is not of significant relevance to the discussion, as I'm
sure that AA batteries will continue to improve. At some point,
all the proprietary battery advantages will vanish.
Other than to allow smaller form factors in compact (smaller than
DSLR) equipment, yes.
AA advantages versus proprietary form factors:
1. usable with both cameras and flashguns, so you don't have to
carry around 2 sets of batteries, 2 chargers, etc.
A conveniece that is very big.
2. buy it anywhere
A small convenience. My equipment that does use AA's is so power
hungry that I'm never caught w/o spare Nimh AA's already charged.
3. some AA slots are shaped to be compatible with CR-V3, so it
opens another door to higher capacities and higher availability
Unless something is rechargeable I tend to disagree.
4. when the company goes out of business, or decides that they no
longer wants to make or support the proprietary battery, your AA
camera will not become garbage when the battery dies.
For some types of equipment yes. Considering we are talking about
Pentax vs. Canon vs. Nikon though, I don't see that as happening
anytime soon.
--



Trust that little voice in your head that says, 'Wouldn't it be
interesting if....' And then do it. -Duane Michals
 
:-)
I think the choice is clear here, then: Whatever you decide to buy
make sure it's something else than 300D - just to annoy your boss.

Tell him that you didn't like his crippled down camera ... And real
DSLRs are black ... And that Canon makes copiers, don't they ... ;-)
I have used a 300D. It takes nice, sharp photos. It actually is a
good camera at a good price. Yeah, it may be silver and black, but
so is my Pentax K1000.

Pentax makes surveying equipment, don't they? Well, Leica does too.
;-)
 
I think the choice is clear here, then: Whatever you decide to buy
make sure it's something else than 300D - just to annoy your boss.

Tell him that you didn't like his crippled down camera ... And real
DSLRs are black ... And that Canon makes copiers, don't they ... ;-)
I have used a 300D. It takes nice, sharp photos. It actually is a
good camera at a good price. Yeah, it may be silver and black, but
so is my Pentax K1000.

Pentax makes surveying equipment, don't they? Well, Leica does too.
;-)
As Will Rogers said, I have never met a DSLR I didn't like. I really do not think there is a bad choice in sub $2000 DSLR's.

I am saving my pennies for an *istDs. I have some good prime lenses that will fit on it and my laptop has a built in SD drive. The photo quality of the Pentax and Nikon DSLR's suits me better than that of the Canons.
 
As for SD only, it's all about size..

Pentax has worked really hard to bring the D-SLRs down to reasonable sizes, when they released ist* D the similar Canon and Nikons looked like houses next to it. Now, with the ist* DS, they've made it even smaller, even if they still have some way to go before they're down to true SLR sizes.

What's the big deal with making a smaller camera?

For a Pro, it doesn't matter that much, since they're used to carry a ton of equipment anyway, and add everything they can find.. motors, battery-packs etc, which brings them to the size of a D-SLR.

ist* DS is directed towards the consumer market, in all respects. The entusiastic "amateur", and I think ist* DS in every single respect reflects that.

A size which aren't gonna be intimitating to the consumer by the large size (Problematic to carry with me, a camera that big most cost tons and be very advanced etc.. Small size, is "Cute").

And who says CF is an advantage? They're about the same price, and generally similar size, at same price, the SD is faster. CF are 60x, SD 67x. Also, CF might be a dying breed. It's bee perfect for huge storage, but other memory types are getting closer, allowing the same sizes as CF once was alone with, but at a "huge" size. When people want small MP3-players, cameras etc, why huge enormous CF cards, when they doesn't offer any advantage, which is why SD is a far more common memory in everything but D-SLR. Which is practical for a "consumer", since they can use the same cards in a lot of different equipments, instead of having to buy a CF for the camera and a SD for their MP3-player. In worst case scenarious, you're able to turn off your mp3 player and replace the full card in the camera etc.

The use of "regular" AA-kind batteries. A pro is used to carry battery-packs, but the average consumer see that as a nuisance. A lot better to use the "standard" combination of 4 x AA OR 2 x CR-V3, which allows you to pop into the nearest store to get a regular set of Alkalines in case you happen to run out. A huge advantage compared to having to buy and bring an additional battery(-pack) with you at all time. Also offers way more options. Disposable or rechargable AA + CR-VR, compared with a specialized battery, where you're stuck with whatever the company want you to use at all time.
Standard batteries (Another advantage for those moving from non-SLR
or from film)
Again this isn't really an advantage, the 300D's Lithium-Ion pack
lasts much better than 'standard batteries' ever could.
Well I've always chickened out at about 600 shots, but I've never
seen a battery warning on the *ist-D. I don't think the 300D does
as well as that.

Assume your camera battery runs out. You can put any old AAs in the
Pentax. With the Canon you need to go back to your charger.
I'm getting over 1300 shots per pair of Duracell CR-V3s, though I
rarely use a flash. I have found, however, that not just any AAs
will work - I bought some cheap batteries in Siem Reap, Cambodia,
and the camera wouldn't even turn on. I'm not sure whether it was
underpowered or just insulted. I hope they do NOT get rid of the
CR-V3 power option, though. Maybe just design a rechargable Li-ion
battery pack to drop into that slot, and make everyone happy.

I also hope that they aren't moving away from CF as a storage
option. SD ONLY? What was that about? I can understand dual
format capability, but to put in only SD capability seems strange.
How much can it possibly cost per camera to offer both? My
Olympus 5050 took CF, SD, and SM - versatility is a GOOD thing,
right? SD capacities are rising, but they also cost twice as much
per megabyte.

Mark
 
And why is ISO 100 an advantage? I see it as a huge disadvantage. If a camera produces the same, noise-free, image at 200 (and if you look on the review of Pentax ist* D, it had the lowest noise up to 800, when it was the same as Canon ?? and up to 1600 where Nikon D100 had the advantage.), as a camera does at ISO 100. What do you prefer? To get the extra light ISO 200 gives you compared to what ISO 100 gives? If I had a camera that had a lowest ISO of 800, but gave as noise-free images as a camera with ISO 50, I would be happy, because I would be able to use f11 instead of f1.4, or not having to use the flash etc..

Who say you have to use NiMh batteries with the Pentax? Only because it gives you that option, it doesn't mean you have to use that option. At least Pentax let you have an option in what batteries you prefer to use.. everything from standard Alcaline to NiMh to Li-ion at any time, not having you to stick to the one single kind of battery the Canon or Nikon forces you to use.
Metal subframe
300D has a metal subframe, although I prefer the plastic used on
the *ist DS there's little difference in build between them.
So why is the 300D so much bigger but the same weight - i.e. lower
density ? Shots of it in pieces show it doesn't have a chasis as
such.

Stuff the materials. The Pentax has a solid feel, the Canon doesn't
I have both. To me there is nothing about the Rebel D that seem to
not be solid. I think if it were black everyone would think it felt
solid.
But the Rebel D goes down to 100
Only useful if it's usable.
Based on the *ist-D, I'd say it was especially in combination with
neat image
SD memory
Advantage? Many don't see it that way.
Yes, advantage. I've never met a 10D owner who'd bought a 300D to
go with it. There are some *ist-D owners who are saying "oh dear I
was hoping for a cheap body and I can't use my CF", but they're no
the target customer. The target customer probably has a compact (if
they have digitial at all) and it probably has SD. It's a plus for
them
Standard batteries (Another advantage for those moving from non-SLR
or from film)
Again this isn't really an advantage, the 300D's Lithium-Ion pack
lasts much better than 'standard batteries' ever could.
Well I've always chickened out at about 600 shots, but I've never
seen a battery warning on the *ist-D. I don't think the 300D does
as well as that.

Assume your camera battery runs out. You can put any old AAs in the
Pentax. With the Canon you need to go back to your charger.
third party batteries for the Canon DSLR's are very inexpensive so
there is no reason not to have several extra ones. They are very
powerful and retain their charge far far longer than Nickel metal
hydride batteries do.

--
Dave Lewis
 
Fuji does have that, as well as Olympus cameras. Not sure about Panasonic.

Why the hook up on NiMh? Doesn't ist* DS use Li-ion as well, if not a propriety one.

You're able to use 3 kinds of power-sources for the ist* DS. Alcaline, NiMh and Li-ion, which I see as an advantage. Especially since my Olympus gives the same options, my 35 mm flash uses AA-cells as well as my Pentax Winder. As in.. it allows me to raid the flash, winder, Olympus etc, if I would prefer to use the ist* DS at the moment. Rather than say.. bring the camera bag with a set of batteries for the Olympus, another set of batteries for the Pentax etc.. Just have one kind of additional sets, which I can use where I need to use it.

And.. of course, you do have the option of raiding that present shop at the zoo, in a worst case scenario, instead of leaving the zoo, run to nearest photography shop or home..

In the end, I see a plus for the option of using AA-size batteries.
In practice, digicams hardly work with alkalines, so the argument
that you can "buy them anywhere" doesn't hold much water. You have
to use NIMH AAs unless you have a lot of money to burn.

For people who don't use their camera every day, battery shelf life
is important. You can charge your lithium ions, come back a month
later, and find that they still have most of their charge. NIMH's
lose about 30% just sitting there.

Lithium ions have more power for the weight, and you don't have to
fumble with inserting four of them, each in its proper direction.

For a DSLR, where you don't use the LCD much, the batteries do last
a long time, so AAs are tolerable. As far as I know, no
manufacturer offers a camera with an EVF that uses AAs (the Minolta
Dimage 7 did, and this was one of its biggest disadvantages.)

If I bought a DSLR (and the DS is tempting), it would not be my
primary camera. For most purposes, a compact digicam is just as
good (in fact, the latest batch of 7mp and 8mp compacts
out-resolves the 6mp DSLRs) and much more convenient.

http://ca.geocities.com/spirope/dslr.htm

On the whole, I would say the pluses and minuses of AA batteries
are about equal, so I would rate it as neither an advantage nor a
disadvantage in the DS.
Standard batteries (Another advantage for those moving from non-SLR > > > or from film)
Again this isn't really an advantage, the 300D's Lithium-Ion pack
lasts much better than 'standard batteries' ever could.
Don't know why Phil seems to have a problem with SLR's using AA -
they are cheap, universally available if problems arise, and most
importantly - you can always raid the kid's toys if you run short!
What are the convincing points in favour of proprietry batteries?
 

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