So its a D2x with ISO 800....

David (r00t)

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The questions are: a) why is it such low MP- they should have really jumped the 1Ds- and b) why is it not a full frame chip?

This is not good for competition.

Well, at least it doesn't make me regret the decision I made to switch over to the dark side almost two years ago, when the D2x S H O U L D have been announced!

Oh, and c) why no 400, 500, and 600 VR?

-C
 
Actually a reply to the original post...

ISO 1600 and 3200 are available, much like 50 and 3200 are available on 1D with iso expansion.

And for Silken,

Somehow a 1D and 1Ds wrapped in one body is not good for competition? Full frame is only an advantage if smaller format chips necessarily produce higher noise. Canon has proved higher noise is not necessarily a product of smaller sensors with the 20D.

Now, why OH WHY has canon not produced a 17-55mm zoom?

A Canon user (1D, 1D MkII, 10D) thinking about switching to Nikon.
This is not good for competition.

Well, at least it doesn't make me regret the decision I made to
switch over to the dark side almost two years ago, when the D2x S
H O U L D have been announced!

Oh, and c) why no 400, 500, and 600 VR?

-C
--
I miss film. I really do...

-markomarko
 
ISO 800 may very well be the top practical limit. So you will still have a D2H for Hi-ISO/speed and the D2X for high resolution/landscape/studio work.

Nikon also introduces a new (read non-DX crop factor) so people that want to use a 10.5mm Fish-eye with high speed sports will no need a DX-2 lens series.

If this indeed turns out to be true, it will be interesting to see where the 1Ds has gone in two years of R&D. The integrated (or optional Wi-Fi) sounds sweet.

Steven
ISO 1600 and 3200 are available, much like 50 and 3200 are
available on 1D with iso expansion.

And for Silken,

Somehow a 1D and 1Ds wrapped in one body is not good for
competition? Full frame is only an advantage if smaller format
chips necessarily produce higher noise. Canon has proved higher
noise is not necessarily a product of smaller sensors with the 20D.

Now, why OH WHY has canon not produced a 17-55mm zoom?

A Canon user (1D, 1D MkII, 10D) thinking about switching to Nikon.
This is not good for competition.

Well, at least it doesn't make me regret the decision I made to
switch over to the dark side almost two years ago, when the D2x S
H O U L D have been announced!

Oh, and c) why no 400, 500, and 600 VR?

-C
--
I miss film. I really do...

-markomarko
--
---
New and Updated!!!
Summer 2004:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/an_image_a_week_summer

Lightning:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/lightning_strikes
 
Full frame is only an advantage if smaller format
chips necessarily produce higher noise.
Not true. There are other advantages to a larger sensor, such as depth of field and improved (out of focus area, I can't remember the word). Also, a large sensor will allow for greater dynamic range.

Not to mention lesser -potential- noise, and the fact that all of my lenses focus on a full frame, not a small portion of a frame.
 
Full frame is only an advantage if smaller format
chips necessarily produce higher noise.
I believe the 1Ds produces more noise that either the S2 or the 1D mkII above ISO400 if not in all ISO speeds. We won't even bring up the 14n/slr-n 'cause no one could keep a straight face. ;-)
Not true. There are other advantages to a larger sensor, such as
depth of field and improved (out of focus area, I can't remember
the word). Also, a large sensor will allow for greater dynamic
range.
Now please explain the DOF & DR advantage produced by a FF sensor over the smaller ones. DOF is the result of focal length+aperture+subject distance. Just because the image is "cropped" doesn't change the DOF at all. (the word is bokeh)

As for DR, let's see how the FF'ers stack up against the S3 once it hits the street. I believe the S2 currently stacks up rather well with the FF shooters in DR. Give it a look.
Not to mention lesser -potential- noise, and the fact that all of
my lenses focus on a full frame, not a small portion of a frame.
Which is why FF digital has problems on the edges with wider lenses. Anyone and everyone understands why. This is not a hidden fact concerning FF's and will be a difficulty until the technology finds a solution. Film, with its flat surface and lower resolution due to grain and other factors didn't show these defects like the hi-rez FF's. Until this is solved I'll keep with the smaller capture device in a SLR body. MF digi backs are another story and I've yet to hear of this problem with those.

Robert
 
Now, why OH WHY has canon not produced a 17-55mm zoom?
Because they already have an 18-70 with fast F3.5-4.5 aperture and Ring USM !!

--
Please ignore the Typos, I'm the world's worst Typist

Rummage through those Dumpsters Folks and you TOO could own a 35-80 ;-)
 
Somehow a 1D and 1Ds wrapped in one body is not good for
competition? Full frame is only an advantage if smaller format
chips necessarily produce higher noise. Canon has proved higher
noise is not necessarily a product of smaller sensors with the 20D.
Smaller photosites mean less light collection at each photosite, so they rely on signal amplification at those photosites, which also boosts noise. The 20D puts 8mp into an APS-sized sensor, but Canon has fine-tuned their advanced noise-reduction processes over the evolution of their CMOS technology, in addition to employing larger micro-lenses to optimize light collection at each photosite. But that's still not anywhere near as daunting as putting 12mp+ into an APS-sized sensor, and from an untested sensor that has probably been sourced from a third party source that may or may not have ever implemented a sensor in a DSLR camera before. So what Canon has accomplished over the course of their years of DSLR sensor development and experience is not necessarily transferrable to Nikon's D2X sensor because it comes from a totally different source. Plus, there are other advantages to having a FF sensor, such as depth of field relationship to focal length, as well as viewfinder size, etc.
 
Of course FF allows more control over DOF. As the sensor gets smaller, you are required to use a shorter focal length lens to maintain the same projected subject size relative to the size of the sensor. This shorter focal length will increase your DOF at the same aperture. This is one the big benefits of MF and why LF shooters like f64.

I will leave some of the other questions to others

Steven
Full frame is only an advantage if smaller format
chips necessarily produce higher noise.
I believe the 1Ds produces more noise that either the S2 or the 1D
mkII above ISO400 if not in all ISO speeds. We won't even bring up
the 14n/slr-n 'cause no one could keep a straight face. ;-)
Not true. There are other advantages to a larger sensor, such as
depth of field and improved (out of focus area, I can't remember
the word). Also, a large sensor will allow for greater dynamic
range.
Now please explain the DOF & DR advantage produced by a FF sensor
over the smaller ones. DOF is the result of focal
length+aperture+subject distance. Just because the image is
"cropped" doesn't change the DOF at all. (the word is bokeh)

As for DR, let's see how the FF'ers stack up against the S3 once it
hits the street. I believe the S2 currently stacks up rather well
with the FF shooters in DR. Give it a look.
Not to mention lesser -potential- noise, and the fact that all of
my lenses focus on a full frame, not a small portion of a frame.
Which is why FF digital has problems on the edges with wider
lenses. Anyone and everyone understands why. This is not a hidden
fact concerning FF's and will be a difficulty until the technology
finds a solution. Film, with its flat surface and lower resolution
due to grain and other factors didn't show these defects like the
hi-rez FF's. Until this is solved I'll keep with the smaller
capture device in a SLR body. MF digi backs are another story and
I've yet to hear of this problem with those.

Robert
--
---
New and Updated!!!
Summer 2004:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/an_image_a_week_summer

Lightning:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/lightning_strikes
 
No - on the 1Ds I can use the 24-70L most of the time when on a smaller crop I would have had to use a wider, lesser quality lens (e.g. 16-35L). So overall image quality is better, independent of noise.
This is not good for competition.

Well, at least it doesn't make me regret the decision I made to
switch over to the dark side almost two years ago, when the D2x S
H O U L D have been announced!

Oh, and c) why no 400, 500, and 600 VR?

-C
--
I miss film. I really do...

-markomarko
--
Ian S
'To see a World in a grain of sand
And Heaven in a wild flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour'
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com/Portfolio
http://www.rainpalm.com
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com
 
Not true. There are other advantages to a larger sensor, such as
depth of field and improved (out of focus area, I can't remember
the word). Also, a large sensor will allow for greater dynamic
range.
Now please explain the DOF & DR advantage produced by a FF sensor
over the smaller ones. DOF is the result of focal
length+aperture+subject distance. Just because the image is
"cropped" doesn't change the DOF at all. (the word is bokeh)

Robert
The size of the sensor is crucial for the depth of field and hence the bokeh. Just try to get a nice portrait shot with even a top of the line consumer digicam like the Canon PowerShot Pro1 with a 2/3" (8.80 x 6.60 mm) sensor.

You won't be able to get it, and that's not because of the noise but because of the too great depth of field.The reason for that is a little bit complicated. There are 2 effects at play, namely:

1. With a smaller sensor the magnification from sensor to print (based on which DOF is defined) is larger, this results in a shallower DOF. This relation is mathematically roughly linear.

2. With a smaller sensor you get a Field of view crop, if you want to compensate for that you'll have to use a wider angle (shorter focal length) lens. This effect will increase the DOF. Mathematically the effect is roughly quadratic.

The nett effect is that with decreasing sensor size the DOF increases approximately linearly.

--
In the beginning there was nothing, and then even that exploded.
If you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
 
Nikon also introduces a new (read non-DX crop factor) so people
that want to use a 10.5mm Fish-eye with high speed sports will no
need a DX-2 lens series.
Still, chances are Nikon will actually make a fisheye for that x2 crop, whereas us Canon-owners still don't have a 1.3x or 1.6x crop fisheye... which frankly is ridiculous.
 
Hi,

In a prev. life I have worked on software that used A/D converts in a measuring application.

The basic problems are theat more sites (i.e. higher transistor count) you have the more noise. The A/D converters need a clean ref. power supply to do there job properly. Therefore the more processing on chip, there is done, the more noise there is to surpress.

I guess the 1D MKII & 20D noise levels are more to do with surpressing the noise than actual noise on chip. I'm not saying that a larger sensor will not produce more noise (to a small degree) it will, just when compared to other problems, it's not a limiting factor.

I suspect that is may be a bigger issue than Size of chip. The size of chip relates to the cost of production. I guess sensor for the 20D could be 1/3 cheaper to produced than the 1d MKII. May be many times cheap when you take into account the volumes produced.
Alex
This is not good for competition.

Well, at least it doesn't make me regret the decision I made to
switch over to the dark side almost two years ago, when the D2x S
H O U L D have been announced!

Oh, and c) why no 400, 500, and 600 VR?

-C
--
I miss film. I really do...

-markomarko
--
Ian S
'To see a World in a grain of sand
And Heaven in a wild flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour'
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com/Portfolio
http://www.rainpalm.com
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com
 
Hi,
In a prev. life I have worked on software that used A/D converts in
a measuring application.

The basic problems are theat more sites (i.e. higher transistor
count) you have the more noise. The A/D converters need a clean
ref. power supply to do there job properly. Therefore the more
processing on chip, there is done, the more noise there is to
surpress.

I guess the 1D MKII & 20D noise levels are more to do with
surpressing the noise than actual noise on chip. I'm not saying
that a larger sensor will not produce more noise (to a small
degree) it will, just when compared to other problems, it's not a
limiting factor.
They altered the circuitry and got an actual noise reduction on the chip
I suspect that is may be a bigger issue than Size of chip. The size
of chip relates to the cost of production. I guess sensor for the
20D could be 1/3 cheaper to produced than the 1d MKII. May be many
times cheap when you take into account the volumes produced.
Alex
This is not good for competition.

Well, at least it doesn't make me regret the decision I made to
switch over to the dark side almost two years ago, when the D2x S
H O U L D have been announced!

Oh, and c) why no 400, 500, and 600 VR?

-C
--
I miss film. I really do...

-markomarko
--
Ian S
'To see a World in a grain of sand
And Heaven in a wild flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour'
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com/Portfolio
http://www.rainpalm.com
http://www.mekongpicturehouse.com
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Hi,

Canon's aim is to get close to produce a single chip solution as they can. The imply by the tevh. note they release Thats more about cost again thu.

Canon tackle noise at every level, not just software, but at the analogue & DSP levels too
Alex
They altered the circuitry and got an actual noise reduction on the
chip
 
Well, you can just buy the Nikon fisheye and use on your Canon via an adapter.
Jack
Nikon also introduces a new (read non-DX crop factor) so people
that want to use a 10.5mm Fish-eye with high speed sports will no
need a DX-2 lens series.
Still, chances are Nikon will actually make a fisheye for that x2
crop, whereas us Canon-owners still don't have a 1.3x or 1.6x crop
fisheye... which frankly is ridiculous.
 

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