It may be better to keep those bad pixels

[pigster]

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might portend a worsening condition.

A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well, yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D. He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do (didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used. This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly - and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about 100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool. Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

 

[digidude]

Pigster:

That Canon rep is feeding you a load of bull! I sent my G2 in and Canon mapped out 2 bad pixels for me. Others on this forum have had dead/hot pixels mapped out of thier 10D cameras.

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

--
Jim Garavuso

 

[Juha Halvari]

so why not in 10D? i think they talk general BS

-
Juzu

That Canon rep is feeding you a load of bull! I sent my G2 in and
Canon mapped out 2 bad pixels for me. Others on this forum have had
dead/hot pixels mapped out of thier 10D cameras.

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

--
Jim Garavuso

--
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=68017

 

[jerrybrendle]

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

Hey, 3 out of 6,300,000 ain't bad. I think we can get a little anal sometimes. I believe I could live with it rather than risk screwing something else up during the surgery!

 

[pigster]

I was on the phone for a long time with this Canon tech. He was very convincing. Could your camera have been fixed by some means other then mapping-out? Did they tell you that your camera was, in fact, mapped-out?

Four months ago I sent my 10D to the Canon in Irvine to fix a real bad front-focusing problem. They did a great job of fixing it so I do have some faith in them. But, that doesn't mean that they aren't feeding me BS now. Why would they?

Call Canon and ask about having bad pixels fixed in your 10D and lets see what they tell you. If they tell you something different then they told me, I would really like to know.

Their phone number is: 1-949-753-4200

That Canon rep is feeding you a load of bull! I sent my G2 in and
Canon mapped out 2 bad pixels for me. Others on this forum have had
dead/hot pixels mapped out of thier 10D cameras.

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

--
Jim Garavuso

 

[pigster]

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

Hey, 3 out of 6,300,000 ain't bad. I think we can get a little anal
sometimes. I believe I could live with it rather than risk screwing
something else up during the surgery!

But, now I only have 6,299,997 left. My hemorrhoids are starting to hurt.

 

[Jim Campbell]

that previous Canon DSLR's the D30 or D60 actually had a service CD that would allow the user to map out bad pixels. I also seem to remember that some of the P & S cameras offered this feature as well and it was part of the menu items. I am fairly certain that the sensors can be remapped and I believe a search on this will turn up some 10D users that returned their cameras for this purpose.

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

 

[Jason Hutchinson]

A fresh Canon sensor has thousands of bad pixels, until they're effectively mapped out with what I'll call the gain factor file. I'm not sure if anyone has posted a pic from an uncorrected sensor here, but it's not pretty.

The service guy was either ignorant or trying to deceive you.

Jason

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

pigster wrote:
[snip]

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough.

I know for a fact that ain't so. How? Because I was standing right next to the technician at Canon's official service center in Finland, as he plugged my 10D into his computer and used the service CD to map out four hot pixels. Your tech is either feeding you a line (for whatever reason), or doesn't know what he's talking about.

He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

This bit is correct.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind)

Nonsense. The standard is, "if it shows up at shutter speeds of 1 sec or shorter at ISO1000 or lower, it's a defect and must be fixed." Nothing technical about it. How do I know? Because the tech read it to me from the docs that accompanied the service CD.

he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

This bit is true, again. I understand there can be several hundred or even several thousand bad pixels in a sensor; they're just mapped out at the factory.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Ain't what I heard.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

I'd say, find a tech who knows what he's doing and... have those pixels mapped out.

From your story, it sounds pretty obvious -- the techie wanted to blow you off: "You have a perfectly good camera. Your right is to have those pixels fixed, but if you do so, you might just get a worse one."

I would complain to the manager if I got fed a line like this.

Petteri
--



Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Pontification: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/ ]

 

[critter1]

I know that some (all?) laptop computer and desktop LCD manufacturers state that "some" bad pixels are inevitable and are "not" a warranty issue unless the number of bad pixels exceeds a certain value.

From NewEgg, they specify that the number of bad pixels must exceed 7 before they will except an exchange.

This Christmas, I purchased an 18 inch LCD display (1280x1024) - I was able to find one dark pixel.

Does anyone know a corresponding number for a camera like the 10D, and/or what kind of "algorithm" they might use in deciding pass/fail at the factory. For example, if a bunch of bad pixels were adjacent to each other, this would be a more serious problem that mapping might not address.

 

[Victor Engel]

I'd rather have 10 dark pixels than one bright, red one. I used a laptop with a bright red pixel that I was able to tweak by theemping it with my finger. Obviously, I would never do this to my 10D sensor.

My first 10D has a couple of bright red pixels. I caught the problem during my first few days with the camera and exchanged it for a different one. The replacement had no such problem.

I know that some (all?) laptop computer and desktop LCD
manufacturers state that "some" bad pixels are inevitable and are
"not" a warranty issue unless the number of bad pixels exceeds a
certain value.

From NewEgg, they specify that the number of bad pixels must exceed
7 before they will except an exchange.

This Christmas, I purchased an 18 inch LCD display (1280x1024) - I
was able to find one dark pixel.

Does anyone know a corresponding number for a camera like the 10D,
and/or what kind of "algorithm" they might use in deciding
pass/fail at the factory. For example, if a bunch of bad pixels
were adjacent to each other, this would be a more serious problem
that mapping might not address.

 

[Guillaume in Paris]

Like Petteri said, this tech tried to feed you a line. (love the expression!!) He knows nothing about CMOS defects mapping, so he wanted to talk you out of asking a repair. Obvious. BTW, he wouldn't be the first ignorant Canon tech. I've had the same in Paris.

I tweaked my D60 to try to map out the 2 bad pixels (showing at all speeds) I had, myself. It went bad, I obviously lack a file the techs have when they do a mapping.

It resulted in the camera losing its whole map of bad pixels. You have to see it to believe it. This legendary noise-free camera plagued by literally thousands (yes, not hundreds) of defects of varying sizes spread uniformly on the surface. Don't think the 10D's sensor is anywhere near perfect, it might just be as "defective" as my D60 and others, but the defects are MAPPED OUT. Before the bad tweak, my D60 gave clean images but with 2 hot pixels, 1 purple and 1 big white. Nothing more, but a pain to retouch on 500 wedding pics. After the bad tweak, I counted like 3000 defects on the sensor. Don't take me for a fool: I didn't count each!! I took a ninth of the image and counted something like 450 colored pixels. This was a lens cap shot: the image should have been 100% black!

I brought the cam to the service center in Paris, explaining what I had messed up and what I wanted fixed:
"hot pixels. vertical banding."

nothing more. Guess what? 3 weeks later, the cam was ready, and upon testing it in the metro after leaving the service center... GOSH!!! hot pixels were still visible on the LCD!!! no need to even look at them on a monitor, the LCD was showing them!! of course the banding was still there too.

The day after, I call the tech (only one of them at the service center is specialized for digital cameras). Ask him WHAT he did to my cam, at 150€ the repair he must have fixed at least something!! I pointed out 2 problems and they were still not fixed. He said "well I re-tuned all the settings to factory standards".
I asked him about the HOT PIXELS. He said "what?"

I said HOT PIXELS (DUMBA$$!), how did you test for them because they're still here. I couldn't be rude with him, his ignorance was so pathetic.

He said "well, I took some flash pictures, and some pics at various speeds, I saw nothing wrong".

Me, furious "do you only know when do the HPs show up? LONG EXPOSURES!! I mean, longer than 1/60th, and the flash certainly doesn't help"

Him, embarrased but still trying to save the face "When do you see your hot pixels?"

Me, annoyed "in long exposures as I told you, like in the clubs where I need 1/10th to 1 or 2s sometimes"

Him, proud to save the face "aaaahhh!!!! in dark places!! but you know, it's normal with digital cameras, you'll always get dirty pics in dark places, it's the sensor blah blah blah noise blah blah..."

Me, getting even more furious about his ignorance "Umh, Christophe, do you know what camera we're talking about here? a D60, man. A camera with which I can make 8 minutes exposures that contain just dozens of hot pixels and are very usable. A D60, that is reputed for noise-free images at 30sec. Here, my D60 gives noisy pics, with more HPs at 1s than the 8 minute exposure I did in august. Did you even look at the CD I gave you, with good pics before and problems after?"

Him, tail between the paws "well, yes, I look at it and didn't see what you were talking about... I didn't know how to see the hot pixels, you'll have to bring the cam back to us and I'll re-check it, and fix it within the repair warranty".

My D60 is in since 12/12, he said they'd have to send it to Canon France because he didn't know how to fix the banding, and he also said that upon asking them, Canon France didn't seem to know what was going wrong with my cam. So they'd probably send it to Canon Holland. It could take weeks (months?). I said "send it".

So here I am, with no warranty to get the cam fixed, if I ever fall onto another ignorant technician in holland...

Wanna see the images I was getting:?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=6223072

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=6809398

and a typical problem pic (100%, small crop), 30sec at ISO100:



Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography
Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

 

[JMF]

Wanna see the images I was getting:?

Would love to, but the images on the link are all missing!

--
All you touch
And all you see
Is all your life will ever be.

 

[Guillaume in Paris]

because I can see them! (and they're still on my server so they should display)

Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

 

[JMF]

Yeowch!!

--
All you touch
And all you see
Is all your life will ever be.

 

[Rylee Isitt]

You posted that original topic a LONG time ago. Your camera has remained unrepaired for all that time?

 

[jerrybrendle]

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.

Now when you guys are finding these "bad pixels", are you taking say a 30 second exposure with lens cap on, opening it full screen in PS and then doing an "auto levels" in order to make them appear? If so I guess I have 7 or 8 miniscule color specks visible but I nearly need to magnify them even farther to really see them. I hardly find this to be a problem. What about black (or dead?) pixels, would they show up in doing the small aperture/ blue sky/auto levels check for sensor dust? Would they simply appear like specks of non-removable dust?

 

[Guillaume in Paris]

Made the cam go bad on 10/1, lived with it for 1 month, gave it to Canon on 10/31, got it back on 10/21 unrepaired, shot 2 parties with it then brought it back on 12/12 then the unknown begins... they said they'd send it to Canon, I hope it's for the best... I know I messed up the cam myself, but I expect a service center specialized in ONE brand to know how to fix their products or know their weaknesses. This won't make me switch to Nikon but now I really fear their service center. Everytime I come to that place, I see an angry client! What a waste of time. Fortunately I can borrow a friend's 10D when needed, and times are calm for me anyway.

Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

 

[Guillaume in Paris]

Hot: they show more as the exposure length increases, and tend to bleed on neighbours
Stuck: always the same color, probably doesn't change size with exposure length

Dead: stuck + black (yes, like a 1-pixel dust but will show the same at f1 or f32 because it's not aperture-dependent!!)

Most of these are very well mapped at the factory, fortunately. Then some problems develop over time.

You only need an autolevels in rare cases, very often those bad pixels are easily visible and that's exactly why they're a pain to deal with!!

Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography

 

[pigster]

Well, everything seemed settled when I started this thread. I thought the issue had been cleared-up by that Canon tech, and I was simply sharing the info with you guys. But, with so many of you saying otherwise, he must be very ignorant or just plain deceptive. Could he be under orders from his bosses at Canon to discourage as much warranty repair service as possible? Anyway, here is my dilemma:

The three bad pixels are an extremely minor problem. You really have to look hard to find them and sometimes, in more complex photos, they're nearly impossible to find, and, fixing them takes only a few seconds.

But, I did pay $1500.00 for my 10D and for philosophical reasons would like my camera to be perfect. I know that last sentence sounds obsessive but I get that way when I spend lots of money on something. I'm no lottery winner.

In all other aspects my 10D is working perfectly. I'm afraid to send it in to Canon for repair because someone like the tech that I talked to may be assigned the job of repairing it. What would I get back? Is it worth the risk?

Opinions please.

Several weeks ago, I posted my concern about a few (three to be
exact) dead or stuck pixels that I discovered in the CMOS sensor of
my 10D. No need to go into detail except to say they are present
in all of my images taken with various lenses and a wide range of
settings. My concern was that the death of these pixels might
portend a worsening condition.
A couple of you suggested that I send my 10D back to Canon so they
could "map-out" the bad pixels. Others said that I should live
with the situation since only three pixels were involved. Well,
yesterday I talked to a tech at Canon, Irvine and received some
valuable information on the subject that I would like to share.

First the technician explained that there is no mapping-out
procedure for the 10D. He said that they can map-out bad pixels in
digital camcorders but not in digital cameras like the 10D. I, of
course, asked how they repaired bad pixels in cameras like the 10D.
He went on to explain that there are a few things that they can do
(didn't go into detail) but, for the most part, the primary
solution is to replace the CMOS sensor if the situation is bad
enough. He pointed out that the first thing that they do is to
determine if the bad pixel problem is above or below a
predetermined standard. If the problem is below the standard, then
repair (at least replacing the sensor) is not justified under the
warranty. If the problem exceeds the standard, then the camera is
fixed even if it takes a new sensor to do it.

I asked about the standard. Although the tech did no go into
detail (would have been beyond my limited technical mind) he did
give me what I consider a satisfactory and rational understanding
of the basis of their standard: He explained that when the CMOS
sensors are manufactured they must meet a certain quality control
level. This level or standard is not based on a perfect sensor
with no bad pixels. If only perfect sensors were used, there would
be far fewer of them and 10D's with perfect sensors would likely
cost in excess of $20,000.00. So, in order to keep the cost of the
camera within reason, less than perfect sensors must be used.
This is true for the manufacture of all digital cameras. And, I
must add, nearly everything else.

He added that in judging the dead pixel status of a particular
sensor, more weight (concern) is given defective pixels in the
center of the sensor frame then those along the edge. So, if you
are looking for a replacement CMOS, it is better if all of your bad
pixels are in the center. Lastly, he pointed out that if my sensor
is replaced, it is likely that the replacement will also have a few
bad pixels. And, since I can only find three failed pixels, the
chances that the replacement will have same number or a few more is
good.

Here is my decision: My 10D is focusing perfectly. The colors are
great and everything seems (knock on wood) to be working superbly -
and there is no dust. The bad pixels are only visible at about
100% (one at 66% if you look really hard) in Photoshop and even
then they look like pin pricks. I have been able to eliminate all
three of them in a matter of seconds using Photoshop's clone tool.
Is it worth having the camera ripped apart, risking future
problems, just to fix three extremely minor imperfections? I think
not. Unless my pixels start to die off like there's some kind of
pixel plague ravishing my CMOS sensor, I'll not be sending my
digital baby off to the Canon factory any time soon.