Z9 Firmware 3.0 bug, continued

[PHXAZCRAIG]

The previous thread on this subject inconveniently hit the maximum post limit as I was trying to ask a question, so here we start again.

The whole subject seems very confusing to me because I'm not understanding how people are using terminology.

For instance, 'Base AF'. This appears to be what you adjust when you press the AF button on the left front of the camera. I had mine set to 3D.

QUESTION 1: OK, I'm now wondering exactly what this is supposed to do, but I think it is basically just set to change the shutter release behavior. (Is this correct? All other buttons have AF mode set independently.)

BUT, I have disabled AF from the shutter release, as I've done with BBF since my D300 days.

So I tried a brief test, and I think I see .... something unexpected.

With the 'base AF' set to 3d, and my AF-ON set to 3d+AF-On and AF disabled from the shutter release, I see what I expect, as long as subject detection is OFF. That is, I see a small square box that sometimes turns from yellow to green on a subject, and it tracks that subject pretty well as I recompose.

(If Subject Detection is ON, then I sometimes have the camera grab a perceived subject near the focus box. I work with subjects that don't work with subject detection - fish.)

The key here is - small square focus box 100% of the time.

So then I pressed the AF button and changed to Auto Area. No other changes.

I used AF-ON button to go back to a few test targets, and suddenly I would (sometimes) get a different AF display from the square box. I started getting the multiple small green rectangles scattered across some subjects. Exactly as if I was using a wide area mode and the camera was showing multiple focus points across the plane of focus.

QUESTION 2: Is this one indication of the 'issue'?

It seems to me that this may indeed indicate a scenario where 3D is being mixed with an Auto Area. I can't think of any time since I've had the Z9 where the 3D tracking changed from the default square box to anything else, except when Subject Detection kicked in. But this is different - it's like the camera is swapping from 3d to something else.

I've never tried setting an AF mode to the shutter release and overriding it with the AF-On button, but I can see where this could be very useful.

 

[pe1125]

Craig: Yes, that's the issue. I've seen it , too, and so far I have found no way to get a button programmed to [AF Area Mode]+[AF on] ->3D to get reliable 3D operation if the default AF mode is Auto or one of the wide areas. It works if in subject detection mode and a subject is detected, but not so well if at all if subject not detected. I can't understand the folks who argue that with subject detection so good you never need non-subject 3D. What about landscape when you want to focus and recompose on a flower? Or chasing a butterfly the system doesn't recognize as a subject? Or elephants when you want to focus on the eye? Anyway, something odd is going on and I hope Nikon recognizes it and fixes it.

Peter

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

Yes, and yes. In any AF mode, other than dynamic, where 3-D tracking is engaged with AF-ON you will see the behavior you described, which is different than 2. 1 and that is what people are trying to resolve.

 

[PHXAZCRAIG]

Craig: Yes, that's the issue. I've seen it , too, and so far I have found no way to get a button programmed to [AF Area Mode]+[AF on] ->3D to get reliable 3D operation if the default AF mode is Auto or one of the wide areas. It works if in subject detection mode and a subject is detected, but not so well if at all if subject not detected. I can't understand the folks who argue that with subject detection so good you never need non-subject 3D. What about landscape when you want to focus and recompose on a flower? Or chasing a butterfly the system doesn't recognize as a subject? Or elephants when you want to focus on the eye? Anyway, something odd is going on and I hope Nikon recognizes it and fixes it.

Well, I have many many times where subject detection doesn't work, though with recent firmware changes it sounds like the size of subject detected gets smaller and smaller. That's a good thing for me as I often shoot with subjects at the limit of various ranges. (And crop..)

But here's the thing that I think makes the whole thing go away for me and a lot of others. Set the 'right' thing when pressing the AF button on the side of the camera. Set it to 3D. (Or pinpoint ?)

Now, if you are like so many of us, disable AF from the shutter release. Now set any of the non-shutter-release buttons to whatever AF settings you want, and I think they work fine.

I think - please correct me if I am wrong - that the only function of setting that setting when you press the AF button on the left front of camera is to set the shutter release button's AF function. (3D, Auto, Dynamic, etc.) If you disable AF from the shutter release, I think all this works as expected.

But it does feel like auto-something is bleeding into the 3D tracking otherwise.

 

[James Grove]

issue maybe with iPhone 14 when used as a hotspot

--
James Grove
http://www.jamesgrove.photography

 

[RMcL]

Indeed Craig, your question 2 description perfectly identifies the very problem we are discussing. When the camera’s default AF area mode is set to one of the wide area modes or Auto area and the AF-ON button (assigned to 3D-tracking+AFON) is used to override this you see the erratic behavior you describe. Further this behavior is present regardless of the custom a6 setting, AF actuation on Shutter Button/AF-ON or AF-ON only meaning the problem is still present when camera is configured for BBF. Again, issue is most prevalent when focusing on subjects when subject detection is turned off, which would be your preference for shooting marine life.

 

[RMcL]

Craig: Yes, that's the issue. I've seen it , too, and so far I have found no way to get a button programmed to [AF Area Mode]+[AF on] ->3D to get reliable 3D operation if the default AF mode is Auto or one of the wide areas. It works if in subject detection mode and a subject is detected, but not so well if at all if subject not detected. I can't understand the folks who argue that with subject detection so good you never need non-subject 3D. What about landscape when you want to focus and recompose on a flower? Or chasing a butterfly the system doesn't recognize as a subject? Or elephants when you want to focus on the eye? Anyway, something odd is going on and I hope Nikon recognizes it and fixes it.

Well, I have many many times where subject detection doesn't work, though with recent firmware changes it sounds like the size of subject detected gets smaller and smaller. That's a good thing for me as I often shoot with subjects at the limit of various ranges. (And crop..)

But here's the thing that I think makes the whole thing go away for me and a lot of others. Set the 'right' thing when pressing the AF button on the side of the camera. Set it to 3D. (Or pinpoint ?)

Now, if you are like so many of us, disable AF from the shutter release. Now set any of the non-shutter-release buttons to whatever AF settings you want, and I think they work fine.

I think - please correct me if I am wrong - that the only function of setting that setting when you press the AF button on the left front of camera is to set the shutter release button's AF function. (3D, Auto, Dynamic, etc.) If you disable AF from the shutter release, I think all this works as expected.

No, AF-ON will also be set to the default AF area mode unless you assign it to something else in f2 custom controls. And no to the second point also, if you disable shutter button AF actuation in custom settings a6 (BBF setup) you will still see the issue when all the other conditions are met. The present workaround is to set the default AF area mode to single-point or one of the dynamic area modes with the latter providing the most robust outcome.

But it does feel like auto-something is bleeding into the 3D tracking otherwise.

That’s my perception of the issue too.

--
Phoenix Arizona Craig
www.cjcphoto.net
"I miss the days when I was nostalgic."

 

[Donmonte]

Wow, didn’t think the previous thread would reach its maximum number of posts allowed.

Anyway to recap, here is an exact combination that causes this “bug” to appear in firmware 3.0 compared to all previous firmwares, if you would like to test it out:

1- Back button AF-ON: AF-Area + AF-ON to 3D
2- Shutter: Modes Auto, Custom, Wide area boxes and to a lesser extent single causes the 3D to misbehave after 3.0 except Dynamic.

3- AF activation set to Shutter/AF-ON

Subject detection On or Off.

AFC

Testing scenario to clearly see the issue:

1- Place an inanimate object on a table in front of you, and try to track it using the Back button AF-ON, do not press the shutter.

See how the box erratically behaves.

2- Now do the exact same scenario, but change your shutter to Dynamic (again, do not press the shutter)

Now see how the box correctly behaves.

Both scenarios above worked exactly the same prior to 3.0.

 

[RMcL]

Wow, didn’t think the previous thread would reach its maximum number of posts allowed.

Anyway to recap, here is an exact combination that causes this “bug” to appear in firmware 3.0 compared to all previous firmwares, if you would like to test it out:

1- Back button AF-ON: AF-Area + AF-ON to 3D
2- Shutter: Modes Auto, Custom, Wide area boxes and to a lesser extent single causes the 3D to misbehave after 3.0 except Dynamic.

3- AF activation set to Shutter/AF-ON

Subject detection On or Off.

AFC

Testing scenario to clearly see the issue:

1- Place an inanimate object on a table in front of you, and try to track it using the Back button AF-ON, do not press the shutter.

See how the box erratically behaves.

2- Now do the exact same scenario, but change your shutter to Dynamic (again, do not press the shutter)

Now see how the box correctly behaves.

Both scenarios above worked exactly the same prior to 3.0.

Nice to start with clean slate, right? . I would just add that I see the issue regardless of custom a6 being set to Shutter/AF-ON or AF-ON only.

 

[Donmonte]

Wow, didn’t think the previous thread would reach its maximum number of posts allowed.

Anyway to recap, here is an exact combination that causes this “bug” to appear in firmware 3.0 compared to all previous firmwares, if you would like to test it out:

1- Back button AF-ON: AF-Area + AF-ON to 3D
2- Shutter: Modes Auto, Custom, Wide area boxes and to a lesser extent single causes the 3D to misbehave after 3.0 except Dynamic.

3- AF activation set to Shutter/AF-ON

Subject detection On or Off.

AFC

Testing scenario to clearly see the issue:

1- Place an inanimate object on a table in front of you, and try to track it using the Back button AF-ON, do not press the shutter.

See how the box erratically behaves.

2- Now do the exact same scenario, but change your shutter to Dynamic (again, do not press the shutter)

Now see how the box correctly behaves.

Both scenarios above worked exactly the same prior to 3.0.

Nice to start with clean slate, right? . I would just add that I see the issue regardless of custom a6 being set to Shutter/AF-ON or AF-ON only.

Yeah, I just wanted to keep things simple. Some fellow members are already much too confused

 

[RMcL]

Wow, didn’t think the previous thread would reach its maximum number of posts allowed.

Anyway to recap, here is an exact combination that causes this “bug” to appear in firmware 3.0 compared to all previous firmwares, if you would like to test it out:

1- Back button AF-ON: AF-Area + AF-ON to 3D
2- Shutter: Modes Auto, Custom, Wide area boxes and to a lesser extent single causes the 3D to misbehave after 3.0 except Dynamic.

3- AF activation set to Shutter/AF-ON

Subject detection On or Off.

AFC

Testing scenario to clearly see the issue:

1- Place an inanimate object on a table in front of you, and try to track it using the Back button AF-ON, do not press the shutter.

See how the box erratically behaves.

2- Now do the exact same scenario, but change your shutter to Dynamic (again, do not press the shutter)

Now see how the box correctly behaves.

Both scenarios above worked exactly the same prior to 3.0.

Nice to start with clean slate, right? . I would just add that I see the issue regardless of custom a6 being set to Shutter/AF-ON or AF-ON only.

Yeah, I just wanted to keep things simple. Some people are already much too confused

Understand, but as a strict BBF guy I thought I was immune to this issue, but turns out I’m not. Craig asked the same question too and it has come up several times elsewhere, so good to be clear on that too.

 

[Donmonte]

There’s a new video on YouTube showing the exact problem with a bird, check it out:

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

There’s a new video on YouTube showing the exact problem with a bird, check it out:

Thanks for posting:-D

 

[RMcL]

There’s a new video on YouTube showing the exact problem with a bird, check it out:

Thanks for posting:-D

 

[PHXAZCRAIG]

Understand, but as a strict BBF guy I thought I was immune to this issue, but turns out I’m not. Craig asked the same question too and it has come up several times elsewhere, so good to be clear on that too.

Right now, for BBF there is only one thing causing this that I've seen so far, and that's having the default AF mode to anything except 3D (or Dynamic, possibly another).

And Subject Detection off, though I think that doesn't stop it, just eliminates the times when a subject is detected and muddies these test results.

Set 'base mode' AF to 3D and when using 3D with the AF-ON button, you only ever see the single square for 3D. Change base mode to Auto Area, and you usually see the square box, but sometimes you'll see the focus jump to something else and display multiple green boxes.

It's as if the camera is overriding 3D in some circumstance and using another mode.

Turn base mode AF back to 3D and the problem goes away. (Or becomes exceedingly more rare.)

 

[RMcL]

Understand, but as a strict BBF guy I thought I was immune to this issue, but turns out I’m not. Craig asked the same question too and it has come up several times elsewhere, so good to be clear on that too.

Right now, for BBF there is only one thing causing this that I've seen so far, and that's having the default AF mode to anything except 3D (or Dynamic, possibly another).

And Subject Detection off, though I think that doesn't stop it, just eliminates the times when a subject is detected and muddies these test results.

Set 'base mode' AF to 3D and when using 3D with the AF-ON button, you only ever see the single square for 3D. Change base mode to Auto Area, and you usually see the square box, but sometimes you'll see the focus jump to something else and display multiple green boxes.

It's as if the camera is overriding 3D in some circumstance and using another mode.

Turn base mode AF back to 3D and the problem goes away. (Or becomes exceedingly more rare.)

I will try this. I was out with my family today at a local riparian preserve testing FW V 3.0 for first time in real world use shooting birds. For this subject recognition was on and set to animals, base AF area mode was set to single point. For the main part 3D-tracking on AF-ON was working well, identifying the birds and locking to them and selecting the eyes quite frequently. The only issue I noted was that camera was still now and again losing 3D-tracking and “defaulting” to the “Auto-area-like squares”. The 3D area focus point was also jumping around a bit when I was shooting with a flock of pelicans in the viewfinder, maybe not so surprising since there were multiple recognizable subjects in the frame. I then switched base AF area mode to dynamic-S, but still the camera was losing the 3D-area focus box occasionally and “defaulting” to the “Auto-area squares”. All this with subject recognition on. So, I will try your suggestion of setting base AF area mode to 3D tracking and see how that behaves. Generally though for today’s shoot I think the AF did its Job well. The tendency for 3D-tracking to grab the background was definitely gone. I don’t think I encountered that once today.

EDIT: Just reviewed my images from today and the AF hit rate seems pretty phenomenal, shooting 500PF plus TC14E-III. Out of 78 images I have only one with missed focus. That’s nearly a 99% hit rate. So at-least with subject recognition on (with subjects the camera can recognize) the FW 3.0 AF performance seems solid as a rock.

--
Phoenix Arizona Craig
www.cjcphoto.net
"I miss the days when I was nostalgic."

 

[Donmonte]

There’s a new video on YouTube showing the exact problem with a bird, check it out:

I suggest that all those affected reach out to Nikon directly as I already have, then the sooner we might get a resolution about this issue if there’s enough reports about it.

 

[SpartanWarrior]

Boy this is really confusing, I have 3D mapped to my f1 and f3 buttons but it seems to work great pressing the af/on back button and tracks the eye just fine.

 

[Valladolid]

Boy this is really confusing, I have 3D mapped to my f1 and f3 buttons but it seems to work great pressing the af/on back button and tracks the eye just fine.

-

This is not the reported use case. Issue occurs only if BBAF (the button in the back with AF-ON marking) is set to 3d + af-on while using a wide area AF. Please read the exact context here in https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66583605

cheers.

 

[Jake James]

The Z9 has enough menu settings and programable Buttons to pretty much guarantee a Conflict of some kind.