Dynamic Range e-shutter vs mechanical shutter

[Bobapingu]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

 

[ChrisPCrunch]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

This was an issue with some Panasonic cameras. Normally, MFT cameras capture 12 bit raw files. However, it was discovered that on some Panasonic bodies, when using the e-shutter it changed to 10-bit. The reduction from 12 bit to 10 bit reduces the dynamic range. The probable reason is to increase the readout speed from the sensor. Many sensors have a slow readout speed. This becomes an issue when using the fully electronic shutter as this creates rolling shutter issues. So perhaps dropping to a lower bit-depth it is possible to increase the readout speed and reduce the rolling shutter effect. Essentially a trade off.

This is likely the same issue going on with the Fuji camera - it is likely using a lower bit depth when using e-shutter to increase the sensor readout speed. Can't be certain though without more information.


Chris

 

[Regor250]

I don't know about DR, but on the OM-1 the eShutter images are less noisy than with mechanical shutter.

 

[MNE]

I don't know about DR, but on the OM-1 the eShutter images are less noisy than with mechanical shutter.

In one of Robin Wong's videos on "sharpness" he claims you get slightly better sharpness than e-shutter.

 

[ProDude]

Most reviewers I've watched to date make the obvious statement that using the ES on the OM-1 will result in the most ideal shot removing a chance of shutter shock altogether. As for DR it's identical either way.

 

[novalaker]

I had the same question, and frankly had never heard this before. Is this true of the G9?

 

[JLWPhoto]

I had the same question, and frankly had never heard this before. Is this true of the G9?

 

[Impulses]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

This was an issue with some Panasonic cameras. Normally, MFT cameras capture 12 bit raw files. However, it was discovered that on some Panasonic bodies, when using the e-shutter it changed to 10-bit. The reduction from 12 bit to 10 bit reduces the dynamic range. The probable reason is to increase the readout speed from the sensor. Many sensors have a slow readout speed. This becomes an issue when using the fully electronic shutter as this creates rolling shutter issues. So perhaps dropping to a lower bit-depth it is possible to increase the readout speed and reduce the rolling shutter effect. Essentially a trade off.

This is likely the same issue going on with the Fuji camera - it is likely using a lower bit depth when using e-shutter to increase the sensor readout speed. Can't be certain though without more information.

Chris

Yeah, it usually comes down to the sensor used but also how it's configured which can vary from body to body. No clue about the OM-1 but this was actually not an issue with the Sony sensor(s) on most previous Oly bodies. The OM-1's is a whole different beast tho so I dunno.

 

[Impulses]

I had the same question, and frankly had never heard this before. Is this true of the G9?

The G9 does not drop bit depth with ES (I think the last pany to do that was the g85).

I think the G9 does it at a certain (high) ISO level? Or was that the GH5? It won't at lower ISO tho. All the GF(GX8##) bodies still do, technically those came after the G85 IIRC, and they also force e-shutter with any manual glass since Pana disables EFCS for those lenses (and said bodies don't have a front curtain to do a fully mechanical shutter)... But yeah the GX9 & G95 don't AFAIK.

 

[bclaff]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?

Sometimes increased readout speed leading to more noise is the reason.
This may also be accompanied with a decrease in bit depth.

2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

Probably not. The Mark II doesn't show any difference in PhotonsToPhotos testing.



--
Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

 

[Photongraphy]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

This was an issue with some Panasonic cameras. Normally, MFT cameras capture 12 bit raw files. However, it was discovered that on some Panasonic bodies, when using the e-shutter it changed to 10-bit. The reduction from 12 bit to 10 bit reduces the dynamic range. The probable reason is to increase the readout speed from the sensor. Many sensors have a slow readout speed. This becomes an issue when using the fully electronic shutter as this creates rolling shutter issues. So perhaps dropping to a lower bit-depth it is possible to increase the readout speed and reduce the rolling shutter effect. Essentially a trade off.

This is likely the same issue going on with the Fuji camera - it is likely using a lower bit depth when using e-shutter to increase the sensor readout speed. Can't be certain though without more information.

Chris

I've read about it, too - but don't understand.

Normally digital circuits communicate internally over a 8 or 16 (or higher) bit bus. The readout speed of the sensor doesn't change, so changing from 12 to 10 bits would gain nothing (1 'word' over a 16bits bus, and still 2 'words' over an 8 bits bus. Only dropping to 8 bits would gain speed on a 8bits bus). What am I missing?

 

[ChrisPCrunch]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

This was an issue with some Panasonic cameras. Normally, MFT cameras capture 12 bit raw files. However, it was discovered that on some Panasonic bodies, when using the e-shutter it changed to 10-bit. The reduction from 12 bit to 10 bit reduces the dynamic range. The probable reason is to increase the readout speed from the sensor. Many sensors have a slow readout speed. This becomes an issue when using the fully electronic shutter as this creates rolling shutter issues. So perhaps dropping to a lower bit-depth it is possible to increase the readout speed and reduce the rolling shutter effect. Essentially a trade off.

This is likely the same issue going on with the Fuji camera - it is likely using a lower bit depth when using e-shutter to increase the sensor readout speed. Can't be certain though without more information.

Chris

I've read about it, too - but don't understand.

Normally digital circuits communicate internally over a 8 or 16 (or higher) bit bus. The readout speed of the sensor doesn't change, so changing from 12 to 10 bits would gain nothing (1 'word' over a 16bits bus, and still 2 'words' over an 8 bits bus. Only dropping to 8 bits would gain speed on a 8bits bus). What am I missing?

Not sure as we don't have a knowledge of the inner workings of the sensors and processors involved. However, the sensor might be able to work in different readout modes. We do know for example that when recording video, many cameras can often output 10-bit video rather than the higher bit depth used for stills. Perhaps when running in higher speed output mode (for example in video or in high speed e-shutter) the sensor produces more noise which raises the noise floor and therefore there is no point in outputting more than 10-bit.

This isn't a new phenomena. Many Nikon DSLRs had the option of choosing between 12-bit and 14-bit raw files and the highest burst shooting speeds was only available with the 12-bit raw files. But at least Nikon gave you the choice.

Chris

 

[talkin73]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?

Sometimes increased readout speed leading to more noise is the reason.
This may also be accompanied with a decrease in bit depth.

2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

Probably not. The Mark II doesn't show any difference in PhotonsToPhotos testing.

Reply from OM tech support when I asked about bit depth and any variance between mechanical and electronic shutter:

"Our OM-1 files are 12 bit and it makes no difference if one shoots with mechanical or electronic shutter. My personal preference is electronic shutter unless using flash or there is dramatic movement in the subject."

 

[bclaff]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

This was an issue with some Panasonic cameras. Normally, MFT cameras capture 12 bit raw files. However, it was discovered that on some Panasonic bodies, when using the e-shutter it changed to 10-bit. The reduction from 12 bit to 10 bit reduces the dynamic range. The probable reason is to increase the readout speed from the sensor. Many sensors have a slow readout speed. This becomes an issue when using the fully electronic shutter as this creates rolling shutter issues. So perhaps dropping to a lower bit-depth it is possible to increase the readout speed and reduce the rolling shutter effect. Essentially a trade off.

This is likely the same issue going on with the Fuji camera - it is likely using a lower bit depth when using e-shutter to increase the sensor readout speed. Can't be certain though without more information.

Chris

I've read about it, too - but don't understand.

Normally digital circuits communicate internally over a 8 or 16 (or higher) bit bus. The readout speed of the sensor doesn't change, so changing from 12 to 10 bits would gain nothing (1 'word' over a 16bits bus, and still 2 'words' over an 8 bits bus. Only dropping to 8 bits would gain speed on a 8bits bus). What am I missing?

The bottleneck is not the communication but the Analog to Digital Conversion itself.
Higher bit-depth conversion (usually) takes more time.

 

[bclaff]

talkin73 wrote:

...

Reply from OM tech support when I asked about bit depth and any variance between mechanical and electronic shutter:

"Our OM-1 files are 12 bit and it makes no difference if one shoots with mechanical or electronic shutter. My personal preference is electronic shutter unless using flash or there is dramatic movement in the subject."

Although it does not matter in this case I would point out that a 12-bit file does not mean 12-bit data.

 

[ProDude]

"Our OM-1 files are 12 bit and it makes no difference if one shoots with mechanical or electronic shutter. My personal preference is electronic shutter unless using flash or there is dramatic movement in the subject."

Been saying this for some time now. But there are the non believers I guess.

 

[Vahur Krouverk]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

This was an issue with some Panasonic cameras. Normally, MFT cameras capture 12 bit raw files. However, it was discovered that on some Panasonic bodies, when using the e-shutter it changed to 10-bit. The reduction from 12 bit to 10 bit reduces the dynamic range. The probable reason is to increase the readout speed from the sensor. Many sensors have a slow readout speed. This becomes an issue when using the fully electronic shutter as this creates rolling shutter issues. So perhaps dropping to a lower bit-depth it is possible to increase the readout speed and reduce the rolling shutter effect. Essentially a trade off.

This is likely the same issue going on with the Fuji camera - it is likely using a lower bit depth when using e-shutter to increase the sensor readout speed. Can't be certain though without more information.

Chris

I've read about it, too - but don't understand.

Normally digital circuits communicate internally over a 8 or 16 (or higher) bit bus. The readout speed of the sensor doesn't change, so changing from 12 to 10 bits would gain nothing (1 'word' over a 16bits bus, and still 2 'words' over an 8 bits bus. Only dropping to 8 bits would gain speed on a 8bits bus). What am I missing?

The bottleneck is not the communication but the Analog to Digital Conversion itself.
Higher bit-depth conversion (usually) takes more time.

This. If you look at Sony sensors https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/products/is/camera/index.html then IMX472 (presumably used in OM-1) can do 121 fps in 12-bit mode but almost 160 in10-bit mode.

Nikon D3X did 5 fps raw in 12 bit mode, in 14 bit mode it did 2fps. Newer cameras are less limited but there are various small letter disclaimers when doing ADC with more bits.

 

[Photongraphy]

Thanks guys,

Didn't think of that.

 

[MNE]

Most reviewers I've watched to date make the obvious statement that using the ES on the OM-1 will result in the most ideal shot removing a chance of shutter shock altogether. As for DR it's identical either way.

Robin's comments were from a video that proceeded the release of OM-1 and was only for Olympus cameras in general. I haven't tested to see if it was true.

 

[Bob Janes]

In Chris Niccolls' review of the Fujifilm X-H2S, he mentioned that in most cameras there is a slight loss in dynamic range using an e-shutter over a mechanical shutter.
Two questions:
1. Why is that?
2. Does the OM-1 exhibit this too? I hadn't heard it mentioned.

As others have said, there could be a trade off of dynamic range in order to get the data off the sensor more quickly. The spec sheet says the OM-1 uses 12 bit raw files - there is no direct info in the review about stills, but the video readouts are either 8 or 10 bit... so it is not impossible that it is dropping to 10 bit.

I know of other instances where raw capture is 14 bit for single shot stills, but drops to 12 bit for continuous shooting. The more bits the better, but 10 bit is still pretty good (much better than 8 bit).