It’s a matter of geometry and basic physics. As various people pointed out, OP didn’t explain why we are using crop mode, so we don’t know what two photographic situations are implied by losing dynamic range.
I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
people confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light. but for the same fov image then the FF has less noise but the testers use noise as the way of measuring dynamic range which is wrong imop. i shot a pro shoot with my a6300 last week for kicks and didnt notice any drop in dr at all. in fact the images were spectacular even compared to my a7r2I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
Agreepeople confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
DR range is not easy to "see" in the image or footage without getting in extreme situation and direct comparison (FF/APSC difference is relatively small). Did you make such comparison?
At the end I'm not sure if you agree with me or not
thats not how i look at dr . i look at colour graduation quality irrelevant of extreme light, veiling glare stops you shooting past 10 stops anyway. and thats only because you can push the image in post, no camera can shoot past 9 stops from my tests out of camera. using a grey card.Agreepeople confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
DR range is not easy to "see" in the image or footage without getting in extreme situation and direct comparison (FF/APSC difference is relatively small). Did you make such comparison?
Im a pixel size guy. the larger the betterAt the end I'm not sure if you agree with me or not
and the pixels on both my cameras a roughy the same size. now shooting low light video and pixel binning the FF sensor then the a7r2 beyond iso 6400 is a clear winner.
I would love to see evidence of this as well
Did you guys actually read what others post in this forum? Isn't graphs from measuring at photons to photos enough? Or you just decided to ignore that because it did not fit to your opinion about topic? Just asking...
The argue meant is that due to methodology (shooting the same size target at a different distance or with a different lens) the method forces that to be the result. The flip side argument is that if you literally take the same shot that you would have gotten with the full sensor and cropped away the edges then each pixel responds with the same response as it otherwise would.
I've been through this one. My confusion arose from wondering how a sensor with 14-bit output (per pixel) could have >15-stops of dynamic range. It simply can't! Turns out that DR is calculated by down-sampling the image to 8 megapixels or so, printing it, then measuring DR from the print. Somehow...
There is no contradiction between the two ways of looking at this, both are valid views. They answer different questions though.
Yes - forget the per pixel dynamic range many are talking about in this thread. That's irrelevent.
When cropping, the image is magnified, thus noise is magnified and worse for a given ISO. With worse single to noise ratio, dynamic range is reduced. You're effectively using an APS-C sensor, which has worse noise and DR for effectively the same reasons. If you crop to 2x, you'll see roughly equivalent noise and DR to a Micro Four Thirds camera.These conversations always descend into a bun fight. I'm pretty sure it's because of one very important assumption about what "use crop mode" means (or "super-35 mode" to use the OP's phrasing) .
For those, like me, who say it makes no difference to DR, we stand in the same place when we take the crop shot as we did when we took the FF shot. Our image is literally a crop from the middle of the original full frame. DR is the same.
For others, who say DR is reduced, I think they assume we back off some distance to include the exact same FoV in the crop view as we had for the FF shot. In that case, there are fewer pixels covering the same scene, so overall DR does drop in that definition.
In summary.
Stand still - crop shot has same DR as the same area cropped from the FF shot
Move back and reframe the same - crop shot has lower overall DR than the FF shot
Is it that? (He asks, expecting a ton of incoming opprobrium for trying to be helpful
There are well-defined, industry standard ways to measure dynamic range. Signal-to-noise is key - there is a noise floor, a point a which there is too much noise in the shadows to create usable detail, and this is an important aspect of what dynamic range represents, data captured below the noise floor isn't considered usable information.people confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
How much you'll notice the difference in DR from one camera to another depends on the situation. If it's overcast and you're not doing much post processing, most cameras made in the last 20 years can handle it pretty well. If there is high contrast lighting and you're recovering highlights and pushing up shadows, you'll generally notice the extra stop or so of dynamic range.
You can represent 16 stops of dynamic range in an 8-bit image, and you can represent 8 stops of dynamic range in a 16-bit image. There is no direct relationship between 1 stop of dynamic range and 1 bit of precision for a digital image format, though the more stops the camera can record, generally the more beneficial it is to use a high bit-depth format, otherwise the gradation or granularity of the captured data is reduced.
Single-pixel performance is a somewhat dubious concept. For instance, If we want to know how noisy the sensor output from a given camera is, we need to look at a group of pixels at the bare minimum. If we want to know how much noise a photograph has, especially in relation to the same scene captured by another camera, we need to look at the entire image. If we want to know how much noise an image has perceptively, we also need to take into consideration the size of the image and how far the viewer is from it, as noise will be more visible when viewing large images close up than when viewing small images from far away - this is especially relevant when comparing cameras with different pixel pitches, as viewing the image zoomed to the pixel level will mean different magnifications for cameras with different numbers of megapixels.
there is no industry standard period. Industry standard is take your camera out side and shoot a neutral grey card and see how many stops of recorded detail there is. i bet you wont go past 9There are well-defined, industry standard ways to measure dynamic range. Signal-to-noise is key - there is a noise floor, a point a which there is too much noise in the shadows to create usable detail, and this is an important aspect of what dynamic range represents, data captured below the noise floor isn't considered usable information.people confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
pixel size is pixel size period. they produce the same voltage , they are not connected in series to the next.
Looks like you don’t understand it after all. Noise is exactly the thing that prevents detail from being detected in dark areas of the scene. Not sure what you think it is, if not noise?people confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light. but for the same fov image then the FF has less noise but the testers use noise as the way of measuring dynamic range which is wrong imop.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
Sure. That camera would have more than enough DR for the average “pro shoot”. But that doesn’t make your previous sentences right. ;-)
how do you figure that ? black is black and white is white. or an i missing something ? i shoot black costumes on white backgrounds.Looks like you don’t understand it after all. Noise is exactly the thing that prevents detail from being detected in dark areas of the scene. Not sure what you think it is, if not noise?people confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light. but for the same fov image then the FF has less noise but the testers use noise as the way of measuring dynamic range which is wrong imop.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
Sure. That camera would have more than enough DR for the average “pro shoot”. But that doesn’t make your previous sentences right. ;-)
Even black velvet still has sufficient reflectance (ca 1%) to be easily visible in an otherwise properly exposed shot. Similarly non-overexposed whites retain at least some structure. So there should be no pure whites nor pure blacks.how do you figure that ? black is black and white is white. or an i missing something ? i shoot black costumes on white backgrounds.Looks like you don’t understand it after all. Noise is exactly the thing that prevents detail from being detected in dark areas of the scene. Not sure what you think it is, if not noise?people confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light. but for the same fov image then the FF has less noise but the testers use noise as the way of measuring dynamic range which is wrong imop.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
Sure. That camera would have more than enough DR for the average “pro shoot”. But that doesn’t make your previous sentences right. ;-)
my monitor is 10 bit ,but "bits" have nothing to do with DR.Even black velvet still has sufficient reflectance (ca 1%) to be easily visible in an otherwise properly exposed shot. Similarly non-overexposed whites retain at least some structure. So there should be no pure whites nor pure blacks.how do you figure that ? black is black and white is white. or an i missing something ? i shoot black costumes on white backgrounds.Looks like you don’t understand it after all. Noise is exactly the thing that prevents detail from being detected in dark areas of the scene. Not sure what you think it is, if not noise?people confuse what dynamic range actually is. in my opinion it has nothing to do with noise, but capturing the extremes of light. but for the same fov image then the FF has less noise but the testers use noise as the way of measuring dynamic range which is wrong imop.I'm surprised that some many responces indicates, that you will not loose dynamic range in crop (super 35) mode. I'm far from being expert on the topic, but just from the logical point of view:
What is the difference between FF and APSC sensor: area size
What is the difference of dynamic range between FF and APSC sensor: roughly about 1EV
What is happening in crop mode: reducing sensor area to the size of APSC sensor
So my only conclusion is: YES, you will loose dynamic range in super-35 mode. It's the same as you would pull the A6400 out of the drawer and use it. Results from photonstophotos.net confirm that.
Sure. That camera would have more than enough DR for the average “pro shoot”. But that doesn’t make your previous sentences right. ;-)
Of course this may not be visible on your computer display. Typical computer displays (and JPGs in general) can only reproduce 8bit or less. Since your a6300 has more than 10bit (at baes ISO), you may not notice any impact of DR at all.
