insect macro gear advice

[ABecker]

I want to make some makros with high depth of field, favourably the fastest focus bracketing available or a similar technique in full sunlight on fast moving bees who are black and 2-10mm in size on a white flower 70mm in size. My working distance is probably around 50cm/20inch. I need to move myself and the equipment every 30 seconds. The photos should have a high detail, such as hair color. I do not care about artisitc images or visual styles (scientific photos).

Is there any better and cheaper option than buying an used Olympus E-m1 III and a 60mm Oly Macro for 2000€/2400 US$ (also has PRO 15-40mm kit included but probably not usable for macro)? I can probably sell the kit lens if I need to.
I am willing to go up to 2500€/3000$. I know in terms of serious photography that is not much but I can not spare more at the moment.

Thank you for any advice!

 

[gardenersassistant]

I want to make some makros with high depth of field, favourably the fastest focus bracketing available or a similar technique in full sunlight on fast moving bees who are black and 2-10mm in size on a white flower 70mm in size. My working distance is probably around 50cm/20inch. I need to move myself and the equipment every 30 seconds. The photos should have a high detail, such as hair color. I do not care about artisitc images or visual styles (scientific photos).

Is there any better and cheaper option than buying an used Olympus E-m1 III and a 60mm Oly Macro for 2000€/2400 US$ (also has PRO 15-40mm kit included but probably not usable for macro)? I can probably sell the kit lens if I need to.
I am willing to go up to 2500€/3000$. I know in terms of serious photography that is not much but I can not spare more at the moment.

Thank you for any advice!

At 1:1 an Olympus 60mm macro has a working distance of around 85mm, rather than the 500mm you are looking for.

Suppose you are photographing a 2mm long bee. At 1:1 on a micro four thirds camera like the Em1-111 the scene width is around 18mm. Suppose you crop so you only use half of the width. You will then be using around 2900 x 1950 pixels. If viewed side on the 2mm bee will occupy a bit less than 1/4 of the width of the cropped frame, so it will be around 700 pixels wide. I don't think you will get the high detail you are looking for from that.

If you use extension tubes or a close-up lens to increase the magnification to fill more of the frame with the subject so as to get more detail then the working distance will decrease.

No matter what kit you use I don't think you will get the detail you want for subjects that small with a working distance as large as you want.

If you are moving the kit every 30 seconds will you be working hand-held? If you are thinking of focus stacking I suspect you would find focus stacking a 2mm sized subject hand-held ....... challenging.

 

[Jack Tingle]

Hmmm.

OK. I recommend a Panasonic body rather than Olympus. Panasonic does fast, easy, in-camera focus stacking using 4K MP4s. If that's enough resolution, you can get by cheap. How cheap is the question.

If this is in full sunlight, one of the ZS/TZ series might work. I have a ZS70 ($420) that might not do for you. For a bit more you can do better. A TZ100 or 200 would do better & still be light & cheap. Those are as high as $800, with lens.

Here's a bit of Whitworth grass from my lawn. I forget which compact took this.


Compact camera close focus crop. The background foliage is lawn clover.

I think you want more resolution than this. One of the recent G90, GX9 or G9 bodies should do fine. You can still use the same lens, or an equivalent Panasonic. These will be twice the weight & bulk of the ZS/TZ option. Similar to the Olympus.

The above image is a one shot, straight out of camera jpeg. The killer is the in-camera focus stack. If you can live with 4K resolution, those work really well & give deeper depth of field than the picture. I don't think Olympuses do it*. The GX9 body is quite inexpensive.

If you don't need perfect fidelity, you might get by with extension tubes instead of a macro lens. A really nice set costs under $50 & work with your kit lens. That's a lot less than an extra macro lens.

Sounds like you're walking grounds like Bernd Heinrich. Stay away from ravens in winter. Good luck.

*The newer E-M5s & E-M1s apparently do. The process seems a little more cumbersome than Panasonic's, but might give higher resolution. You can save a bit with the M5 vs. the M1.

 

[BBbuilder467]

I want to make some makros with high depth of field, favourably the fastest focus bracketing available or a similar technique in full sunlight on fast moving bees who are black and 2-10mm in size on a white flower 70mm in size. My working distance is probably around 50cm/20inch. I need to move myself and the equipment every 30 seconds. The photos should have a high detail, such as hair color. I do not care about artisitc images or visual styles (scientific photos).

Is there any better and cheaper option than buying an used Olympus E-m1 III and a 60mm Oly Macro for 2000€/2400 US$ (also has PRO 15-40mm kit included but probably not usable for macro)? I can probably sell the kit lens if I need to.
I am willing to go up to 2500€/3000$. I know in terms of serious photography that is not much but I can not spare more at the moment.

Thank you for any advice!

Check for details on the Micro Four Thirds Forum.

You could fill the frame with the 70mm flower at 1:4, but the body would be just over 12" away. It's nowhere close to 2 0" working distance to the lens.

A 9mm subject would take 2:1 with m4/3. 1:1 would be just under 18mm in frame and the lens would be just a few inches from the subject.

 

[ABecker]

I know I can't get the perfect 1:1 at that range. I am just looking for the next best thing I can do handheld.

No chance to use a tripod. The bees are ~1.5seconds on the flower and then they are gone. I need to move the camera around very quickly.

 

[ABecker]

Thank you for your advice, but I have no chance to do a in-camera stack with subjects that fast.
I need some heavy post processing during the stacking procedure, picking the sharpest part of the animal and cut&copy into an image where that body part is more blurry becasue fully automated stacking will definetly fail.

I just need a bracket where one of the body parts is sharp and in focus and I will do the puzzeling at the computer.

The G9 Panasonic does 6K video. I have already considered that option.
The alternative would be to take a 6K 30fps video and hand select the frames I can potentially stack. However, if I don't have t he in-camera bracketing I guess there is a high chance I will miss cruical parts because I move the camera too fast/too slow?

 

[ABecker]

I know it won't be the best possible option because I am resource limited and my subjects are too fast and too small. I am just looking for the best thing I can buy that can give me enough potential to grow together with and get more skill.

I currently borrowed the a6000 with the short kit lens from a friend and I need something better.

 

[BBbuilder467]

I know I can't get the perfect 1:1 at that range. I am just looking for the next best thing I can do handheld.

No chance to use a tripod. The bees are ~1.5seconds on the flower and then they are gone. I need to move the camera around very quickly.

To get depth of field, you have to stop down and won't have shutter speed to freeze motion without flash.

the main point is your working distance. You will be have to be close to get any image size.

 

[ABecker]

Thank you for your considerations. I have no experience with calculating that but at f/8 I am able to shoot ISO200 at 1/250 with an a6000. I have full sunlight usually because otherwise the bees are not active.

I will try to get closer.

 

[bclaff]

I want to make some makros with high depth of field, favourably the fastest focus bracketing available or a similar technique in full sunlight on fast moving bees who are black and 2-10mm in size on a white flower 70mm in size. My working distance is probably around 50cm/20inch. I need to move myself and the equipment every 30 seconds. The photos should have a high detail, such as hair color. I do not care about artisitc images or visual styles (scientific photos).

Is there any better and cheaper option than buying an used Olympus E-m1 III and a 60mm Oly Macro for 2000€/2400 US$ (also has PRO 15-40mm kit included but probably not usable for macro)? I can probably sell the kit lens if I need to.
I am willing to go up to 2500€/3000$. I know in terms of serious photography that is not much but I can not spare more at the moment.

Thank you for any advice!

In full sunlight you should be able to stop down to get the depth of field you want without having to do any stacking etc.

I take a lot of insect pictures hand-held and never stack.

I do like to use a ring light even in full sunlight.

Here's an example:



--
Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

 

[John K]

The G9 Panasonic does 6K video. I have already considered that option.
The alternative would be to take a 6K 30fps video and hand select the frames I can potentially stack. However, if I don't have t he in-camera bracketing I guess there is a high chance I will miss cruical parts because I move the camera too fast/too slow?

At 30fps then every frame is gonna represent 1/30 of a second, and that's not gonna be fast enough to freeze motion. Just stacking 10 frames would be1/3 of a second -when shooting video and stacking frames the frame rate becomes your "shutter speed". You'd have to be shooting in the tens of thousands of frames per second range...

Given your initial parameters I don't think you're going to be able to do what you want to do, and certainly not at that large of a working distance.

Also keep in mind that you can get a lot of detail and apparent depth in a single frame if you can take control of the motion in a scene and freeze what's left with a flash. Also have to learn how to control where the depth is falling in the frame...

 

[ABecker]

Thank you for all the great tips. But is the camera setup I posted the best I can get for the buck even if can't fully reach the specifications I am looking for?
So I need to get closer and a 30fps video will probably get blurry with fast subjects.

 

[Jack Tingle]

At 30fps then every frame is gonna represent 1/30 of a second, and that's not gonna be fast enough to freeze motion.

That's incorrect. 1/30th is your max shutter opening time. It can be a faster speed, shorter open time. There will just be dead time in between frames.

 

[gardenersassistant]

The G9 Panasonic does 6K video. I have already considered that option.
The alternative would be to take a 6K 30fps video and hand select the frames I can potentially stack. However, if I don't have t he in-camera bracketing I guess there is a high chance I will miss cruical parts because I move the camera too fast/too slow?

At 30fps then every frame is gonna represent 1/30 of a second, and that's not gonna be fast enough to freeze motion. Just stacking 10 frames would be1/3 of a second -when shooting video and stacking frames the frame rate becomes your "shutter speed".

Capturing 10 frames would indeed take 1/3 of a second, and subject and/or camera movement within that timeframe could indeed be problematic. Indeed, I suspect that with subjects as small as 2mm you might need more than 10 frames, especially when working hand-held as the OP will I believe be doing.

However, as far as shutter speed goes, with the G9 you can use shutter speed in the normal way. For example, here is a frame extracted from a 30 fps 6K video I captured this morning with a shutter speed of 1/5000 sec.



OT: If you are wondering about the darkness and flatness of this example, I use a flat, "Cinelike D" profile when capturing these videos to increase the capturable dynamic range. This makes up a bit for having to use, essentially, JPEG rather than raw as for stills. I also use a "highlight weighted" exposure mode which, it seems to me, doesn't simply bias the overall exposure down a bit to make blowouts less likely. It seems to base the exposure entirely on the highlights to ensure they aren't blown. This exposure method is so good that, even in very bright light as for this example, I actually use it with a positive exposure compensation, generally 1/3 stop.

You'd have to be shooting in the tens of thousands of frames per second range...

Given your initial parameters I don't think you're going to be able to do what you want to do, and certainly not at that large of a working distance.

Absolutely.

Also keep in mind that you can get a lot of detail and apparent depth in a single frame if you can take control of the motion in a scene and freeze what's left with a flash. Also have to learn how to control where the depth is falling in the frame...

As you know, I agree with this in general. However, with subjects as small as 2mm I wonder if it might still be problematic getting sufficient depth of field with single shots. That is what I found with some tiny flies for which, despite numerous attempts using minimum aperture, I could never get sufficient depth of field using single shots. That is what drew me into using silly small apertures which do allow me to capture 2mm subjects while they are in motion. But I doubt the OP would want to go there.

--
Nick
Summary of photo activity since 2007 https://fliesandflowers.blogspot.com/2019/01/when-i-retired-in-2006-i-had-it-in-mind.html
Flickr image collections http://www.flickr.com/photos/gardenersassistant/collections/
Blog

Flies and flowers and ...... whatever. Ramblings

fliesandflowersetc-ramblings.blogspot.com

 

[Jack Tingle]

You need to get closer, yes.

The video images won't necessarily get blurrier with frame rate. You can have faster shutter speeds than your frame rate. You just can't have slower.

 

[gardenersassistant]

Thank you for all the great tips. But is the camera setup I posted the best I can get for the buck even if can't fully reach the specifications I am looking for?
So I need to get closer and a 30fps video will probably get blurry with fast subjects.

No more than with stills. On the G9 (and some other Panasonic cameras) you can use the same shutter speed with video as you can with stills.

That said, I've got a feeling the Olympus setup may be the best one for you, using their in-camera stacking which I seem to recall reading (you need to check both of the following points) captures 15 shots in around a second, and which also keeps the 15 raw files. If this is the case, your task will then be trying to keep the camera fairly still for that one second, rather than trying to move it smoothly enough during a burst to get coverage of the subject without gaps, which with a subject as small as 2mm would I think be extremely taxing.

Incidentally, getting 15 fps will almost certainly depend on your using available light because a flash probably couldn't sustain that rate for that number of shots. You may (or may not) have strong enough available light to do this while still getting a fast enough shutter speed and sufficient depth of field, but in light that bright you may get some nasty highlight issues (the avoidance of which is one reason for using flash). Still, you are not after art, so perhaps that wouldn't matter to you, although in troublesome highlight areas the detail may be degraded or lost, which might matter to you.

Working with a range of subjects from 10mm down to 2mm you may have a problem reacting fast enough between subjects of different sizes. That is because you may have to take extension tubes and/or a close-up lens on/off when switching between 10mm and 2mm.

--
Nick
Summary of photo activity since 2007 https://fliesandflowers.blogspot.com/2019/01/when-i-retired-in-2006-i-had-it-in-mind.html
Flickr image collections http://www.flickr.com/photos/gardenersassistant/collections/
Blog
https://fliesandflowersetc-ramblings.blogspot.com/

 

[gardenersassistant]

You need to get closer, yes.

The video images won't necessarily get blurrier with frame rate. You can have faster shutter speeds than your frame rate. You just can't have slower.

He he, that's the second time you've beaten me to it Jack. :-D

 

[gardenersassistant]

That said, I've got a feeling the Olympus setup may be the best one for you, using their in-camera stacking which I seem to recall reading (you need to check both of the following points) captures 15 shots in around a second, and which also keeps the 15 raw files.

From the EM1-III manual: if focus stacking fails, the camera will record the selected number of photos without creating a composite image.

Which might mean that if the in-camera stack does succeed you don't get the source files, which incidentally might be JPEGs rather than raw.

 

[ABecker]

Thank you for considering this but the camera also has a focus bracketing function. I will do the stacking in post because my subjects are too fast. The focus bracketing is RAW for sure.

So if the Oly E-M1 III is a viable option. What would be the next best option for under 3000$?

 

[gardenersassistant]

Thank you for considering this but the camera also has a focus bracketing function. I will do the stacking in post because my subjects are too fast. The focus bracketing is RAW for sure.

So if the Oly E-M1 III is a viable option. What would be the next best option for under 3000$?

tbh I don't think you have yet established the E-M1 III (or anything else) as a viable option. You are prepared to compromise on working distance, which is essential, but there remain other issues. For example:

• How are you going to get the higher magnification you will need for 2mm subjects?
• How are you going to switch fast enough between the magnifications you will need to use if you need to change the hardware configuration between smaller and larger scenes?
• Why are you convinced that stacking is the only solution?
• Are you going to be working hand-held?
• In what sense are the subjects "too fast" for in-camera stacking to work? (See here.) Are they moving around as you do the capturing, or are they still but only briefly? If they are moving round you have big problems when it comes to stacking. If they are still for long enough to capture a bracket set why are you so certain that you will have to do heavy hand-crafted post processing because in-camera stacking would fail, and that stacking with a specialist application like Zerene Stacker or Helicon Focus would fail? This leads me to wonder what experience do you have with capturing and processing for focus stacking.
• What are your intentions for exposing and processing theses images of black bees on a white background using bright sunlight as the sole and unmodified form of illumination? For example, are you content to let the white background blow out to featureless whiteness?

Photographing active subjects is difficult. Photographing subjects as small as 2mm long is difficult. Capturing images for focus stacking in the field is difficult. Photographing black subjects on white backgrounds in bright sunlight is difficult. Trying to do all these at the same time is very difficult indeed, especially if working hand-held, especially if the subjects are on plants which move in the breeze, especially when having only 30 seconds for each scene, especially when needing to switch quickly between sizes of subjects,

--
Nick
Summary of photo activity since 2007 https://fliesandflowers.blogspot.com/2019/01/when-i-retired-in-2006-i-had-it-in-mind.html
Flickr image collections http://www.flickr.com/photos/gardenersassistant/collections/
Blog
https://fliesandflowersetc-ramblings.blogspot.com/