Windows 7 to 10 "upgrade" problems.

[BG454]

I've been happily using Windows 7 for quite a while. However, following MS withdrawal of support for Win 7 I've reluctantly decided to "upgrade" to Win 10.

Before I carried out the update I bought another SSD and cloned my "C" drive onto the new SSD.
I then installed the cloned drive into my computer and everything ran W7 as before.
I then followed the upgrade steps from this website to convert my system from W7 to W10.
I had a few programs that came up with a notice that I was running an evaluation version, but when I entered my Licence code they were all accepted and everything seems to be running normally. I also made sure I had the necessary up to date W 10 drivers installed where these were appropriate (graphics driver, printer etc.)

I am having a serious problem with "Luminar 4" which I have supplied details of to Skylum, but I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts.
Luminar was one of the programs that said I was running a trial version, but after I entered my licence code it appeared OK. I don't know if it's a clue, but when I launch Luminar, despite having configured it to run "maximised" it always opens in a small window, which I then have to maximise to fill the screen.
When I run Luminar 4 it only needs to be open for a minute or so and the whole system crashes, often before I can do any editing.
I have deleted and reinstalled Luminar 4 but everything is the same.
The crash is that the whole computer goes completely dead, as if I had switched off the power. It sits for a few seconds and then reboots as if it had been powered up from cold. The third time this happened the system reported a disk error but I ran "chkdsk" and it seems to have repaired the problem, but I still have random power off shutdowns when using Luminar 4.
The Windows Event Viewer log under "System" reports a Critical Error and says "The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly." The source is reported as "Kernel - Power"
There appears to be no matching events under "Application" or "Security."

This is a self-built system which is primarily used for photo editing, and I am fairly computer literate, but this is really puzzling. As I said, I've reported the problem to Skylum and they have asked for a couple of diagnostic downloads, but so far they have not been back to me.

If all else fails I will reinstall my original SSD and carry on using W7, which was trouble free.

Anybody got any suggestions?

 

[Morris0]

Did you uninstall Luminar 4 or delete it? If you deleted this may be an issue. In my experience the Luminar support people are very polite and that the extent of there computer knowledge.

A common problem can be antivirus software. Try uninstalling it and use windows defender for now.

I suggest you install WhoCrashed to analyze the crash dumps. You may have an out of date driver.

Good luck,

Morris

 

[BG454]

Did you uninstall Luminar 4 or delete it? If you deleted this may be an issue. In my experience the Luminar support people are very polite and that the extent of there computer knowledge.

A common problem can be antivirus software. Try uninstalling it and use windows defender for now.

I suggest you install WhoCrashed to analyze the crash dumps. You may have an out of date driver.

Good luck,

Morris

Hi Morris, thank you for the response.

I uninstalled Luminar using Revo Uninstaller, which scans for left over files, which I also deleted, so the reinstall should have been completely fresh.

I always forget about antivirus software. I use "Bitdefender" and it didn't give me any alerts. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling Luminar again with antivirus turned off.

In my experience graphics drivers are a major source of problems so one of the first things I did was make sure that was the latest version.
I'll take a look with WhoCrashed and see if that gives me any clues.
The fact that I cannot get Luminar to run maximised may suggest there is still an install problem.

 

[Morris0]

Did you uninstall Luminar 4 or delete it? If you deleted this may be an issue. In my experience the Luminar support people are very polite and that the extent of there computer knowledge.

A common problem can be antivirus software. Try uninstalling it and use windows defender for now.

I suggest you install WhoCrashed to analyze the crash dumps. You may have an out of date driver.

Good luck,

Morris

Hi Morris, thank you for the response.

I uninstalled Luminar using Revo Uninstaller, which scans for left over files, which I also deleted, so the reinstall should have been completely fresh.

I always forget about antivirus software. I use "Bitdefender" and it didn't give me any alerts. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling Luminar again with antivirus turned off.

In my experience graphics drivers are a major source of problems so one of the first things I did was make sure that was the latest version.
I'll take a look with WhoCrashed and see if that gives me any clues.
The fact that I cannot get Luminar to run maximised may suggest there is still an install problem.

I used to use Bitdefender and it worked very well with early releases of Windows 10. Then there was one of the major revisions and it caused lots of problems. Bitdefender supposedly fixed it yet it still caused lots of issues. I tried others and they bring different issues and have settled on using the built in Windows Defender which used to get horrible ratings and is now rated as one of the best at detection and removal. It does score higher false positives than some of the third party AV solutions yet I have not experienced one. This is why I recommended going with Windows Defender till you work out your issues. Once stable, then you can research an AV solution.

If you have an AMD based video card, there have been a lot of driver issues in the past few months. Many of the bugs have been fixed yet some still are complaining. If it's an AMD based card and your processor has built in video, try removing the card.

Good luck,

Morris

Morris

 

[Robert Zanatta]

Run Windows memory test. If OK:

disable AV,

run chkdisk or disk check,

run SFC /scannow from command prompt.

That might find something and shouldn't take long to do.

 

[Austinian]

I always forget about antivirus software. I use "Bitdefender" and it didn't give me any alerts. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling Luminar again with antivirus turned off.

A few years ago I was a BitDefender Free user; when I needed to uninstall it (BDF was sabotaging Windows System Restore) it required a special BD program to do a complete job. Like this:

Bitdefender - Global Leader in Cybersecurity Software

Bitdefender is a cybersecurity software leader delivering best-in-class threat prevention, detection, and response solutions worldwide.

www.bitdefender.com

Also, one of the Windows 10 feature updates added certain additional security measures that caused major problems with some third-party AV programs.

I now use Windows Defender for real-time protection; so far, so good.

 

[Morris0]

I always forget about antivirus software. I use "Bitdefender" and it didn't give me any alerts. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling Luminar again with antivirus turned off.

A few years ago I was a BitDefender Free user; when I needed to uninstall it (BDF was sabotaging Windows System Restore) it required a special BD program to do a complete job. Like this:

https://www.bitdefender.com/site/view/uninstall_consumer_paid.html

Also, one of the Windows 10 feature updates added certain additional security measures that caused major problems with some third-party AV programs.

I now use Windows Defender for real-time protection; so far, so good.

I remember that uninstaller and for me using it did remove enough that windows did not think it was installed yet if I tried to install BitDefender it would still try to uninstall BitDefender and fail. The rest of your story matches my experience.

Morris

 

[Austinian]

I always forget about antivirus software. I use "Bitdefender" and it didn't give me any alerts. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling Luminar again with antivirus turned off.

A few years ago I was a BitDefender Free user; when I needed to uninstall it (BDF was sabotaging Windows System Restore) it required a special BD program to do a complete job. Like this:

https://www.bitdefender.com/site/view/uninstall_consumer_paid.html

Also, one of the Windows 10 feature updates added certain additional security measures that caused major problems with some third-party AV programs.

I now use Windows Defender for real-time protection; so far, so good.

I remember that uninstaller and for me using it did remove enough that windows did not think it was installed yet if I tried to install BitDefender it would still try to uninstall BitDefender and fail. The rest of your story matches my experience.

Interesting. I never tried to reinstall BD Free afterwards; I wanted to keep the System Restore function intact. Using the uninstall tool did restore that capability, while as best I recall the simple Windows uninstall did not.

Until I implemented my separate gaming/testing boot drive, I'd routinely set a restore point before installing "trial" software, so I could return the registry to its previous condition if I didn't keep the software.

 

[Morris0]

I always forget about antivirus software. I use "Bitdefender" and it didn't give me any alerts. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling Luminar again with antivirus turned off.

A few years ago I was a BitDefender Free user; when I needed to uninstall it (BDF was sabotaging Windows System Restore) it required a special BD program to do a complete job. Like this:

https://www.bitdefender.com/site/view/uninstall_consumer_paid.html

Also, one of the Windows 10 feature updates added certain additional security measures that caused major problems with some third-party AV programs.

I now use Windows Defender for real-time protection; so far, so good.

I remember that uninstaller and for me using it did remove enough that windows did not think it was installed yet if I tried to install BitDefender it would still try to uninstall BitDefender and fail. The rest of your story matches my experience.

Interesting. I never tried to reinstall BD Free afterwards; I wanted to keep the System Restore function intact. Using the uninstall tool did restore that capability, while as best I recall the simple Windows uninstall did not.

Until I implemented my separate gaming/testing boot drive, I'd routinely set a restore point before installing "trial" software, so I could return the registry to its previous condition if I didn't keep the software.

Windows is supposed to create a restore point before starting any install. This only works with properly implemented installers. I do daily incrementals as well as the restore points. The issue I've occasionally run into is that you don't discover a new software is causing issues for a week or two and then going back can be painful, even with all data on a seperate drive. Fortunately this is not that common.

Morris

 

[Austinian]

I always forget about antivirus software. I use "Bitdefender" and it didn't give me any alerts. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling Luminar again with antivirus turned off.

A few years ago I was a BitDefender Free user; when I needed to uninstall it (BDF was sabotaging Windows System Restore) it required a special BD program to do a complete job. Like this:

https://www.bitdefender.com/site/view/uninstall_consumer_paid.html

Also, one of the Windows 10 feature updates added certain additional security measures that caused major problems with some third-party AV programs.

I now use Windows Defender for real-time protection; so far, so good.

I remember that uninstaller and for me using it did remove enough that windows did not think it was installed yet if I tried to install BitDefender it would still try to uninstall BitDefender and fail. The rest of your story matches my experience.

Interesting. I never tried to reinstall BD Free afterwards; I wanted to keep the System Restore function intact. Using the uninstall tool did restore that capability, while as best I recall the simple Windows uninstall did not.

Until I implemented my separate gaming/testing boot drive, I'd routinely set a restore point before installing "trial" software, so I could return the registry to its previous condition if I didn't keep the software.

Windows is supposed to create a restore point before starting any install. This only works with properly implemented installers.

Indeed, and if only we always had properly implemented installers we might not need those awkward separate uninstallers. :-(

I don't add new software very often nowadays; I have pretty much everything I need. I just looked at my restore points, and the only ones I have are from Windows itself.

Feature updates wipe out all existing restore points, don't they? I'll check that after the next feature update, which should be coming to the gaming/testing drive's Release Preview ring any day now.

I do daily incrementals as well as the restore points. The issue I've occasionally run into is that you don't discover a new software is causing issues for a week or two and then going back can be painful, even with all data on a seperate drive. Fortunately this is not that common.

Yes, that's one reason I started using the separate gaming/testing drive; I can keep the much more important primary drive mostly free of obsolete cruft.

 

[Jon555]

I'd check for whether anything got knocked when you changed the drives (all plugged in well, fans running). Perhaps install the latest graphics card drivers in case it's using an old one that came with WIn10.

Also sfc /scannow has been suggested and it's worth doing, but with dism first. Here's a guide:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb...er-tool-to-repair-missing-or-corrupted-system

BTW "elevated command prompt" means run it as Admin.

 

[supersargas]

You could try reinstalling your graphics driver using guru3D's DDU. That being said, the problem smells like a bad update, so the solution would be nuking and reinstalling from scratch.

 

[calson]

I added a workstation with the i9 CPU and the only way I could buy a new one was with Windows 10 pre-installed and the only drivers available are Windows 10 drivers. That is the only reason I bought the computer with Windows 10 installed.

Windows 10 has a significant and negative impact on computer performance with all the bloatware. Users seldom notice the difference as they have an old machine running Windows 7 and buy a new more powerful machine that is running Windows 10. Windows 10 is by no means more secure than Windows 7 in any regard. It is just as easy to hack a Windows 10 machine today as any Windows 7 machine.

I have Windows 10 versin 1903 and I had to disable BitLocker and remove as much bloatware as possible and disable updates to have as stable a computer as possible.I spent a week researching Windows 10 issues to have a list of installation recommendations and post installation fixes to apply. Even with this research I missed a couple of problems like BitLocker and the issues with connecting to network printers using Windows 10 (no such issues with Windows 7 or Mac OS X) and getting the infamous "The active Directory Domain Services is currently unavailable" message.

The Windows 10 workstation cannot connect to an Canon laserjet on the network using Ethernet and so I bought a 20 foot USB cable to get around the problem. Hardly something I should have to do in 2020. With Microsoft is is always one step forward and one step backward. With Windows 7 I gained a Wintel 64-bit operating system and it was worth the grief. With Windows 10 the gain is with the new generation of Intel processors so as usual I update the OS to get a more powerful computer and not to get a better operating system.

Microsoft shut down its quality control testing lab in 2015 and now uses a single virtual machine to test code which is why new releases have shut down millions of desktops overnight.

I rely 100% on third party firewall and spyware and anti-virus and registry cleaners with the Windows 10 workstation in exactly the same manner as I have relied on them with computers running Windows 7, Windows XP, Window 2000, Windows 3.51, and Windows 3.1. Want a reliable and secure high performance operating system and you need to buy one of the grossly overpriced Apple worstations and pay a $4,000 premium over a Wintel computer.

Our last workstation purchase was one with Windows 10 and our last laptop purchase was the Mac Pro 16" laptop. The remainder of our workstations and laptops run with Windows 7 and will until we eventually replace them with Apple computers.

For a real revalation for the unitiated watch these two videos:

 

[Austinian]

Want a reliable and secure high performance operating system and you need to buy one of the grossly overpriced Apple worstations

Worstations? Typo or Freudian slip? ;-)

(There's sometimes a tiny gem of humor in the usual grim calson anti-Windows 10 post).

and pay a $4,000 premium over a Wintel computer.

Oh, and the Linux guys might want a word with you about the "reliable and secure high performance operating system" part.

Apple macOS 10.15 vs. Windows 10 vs. Ubuntu 19.10 Performance Benchmarks - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

 

[BG454]

I added a workstation with the i9 CPU and the only way I could buy a new one was with Windows 10 pre-installed and the only drivers available are Windows 10 drivers. That is the only reason I bought the computer with Windows 10 installed.

Windows 10 has a significant and negative impact on computer performance with all the bloatware. Users seldom notice the difference as they have an old machine running Windows 7 and buy a new more powerful machine that is running Windows 10. Windows 10 is by no means more secure than Windows 7 in any regard. It is just as easy to hack a Windows 10 machine today as any Windows 7 machine.

I have Windows 10 versin 1903 and I had to disable BitLocker and remove as much bloatware as possible and disable updates to have as stable a computer as possible.I spent a week researching Windows 10 issues to have a list of installation recommendations and post installation fixes to apply. Even with this research I missed a couple of problems like BitLocker and the issues with connecting to network printers using Windows 10 (no such issues with Windows 7 or Mac OS X) and getting the infamous "The active Directory Domain Services is currently unavailable" message.

The Windows 10 workstation cannot connect to an Canon laserjet on the network using Ethernet and so I bought a 20 foot USB cable to get around the problem. Hardly something I should have to do in 2020. With Microsoft is is always one step forward and one step backward. With Windows 7 I gained a Wintel 64-bit operating system and it was worth the grief. With Windows 10 the gain is with the new generation of Intel processors so as usual I update the OS to get a more powerful computer and not to get a better operating system.

Microsoft shut down its quality control testing lab in 2015 and now uses a single virtual machine to test code which is why new releases have shut down millions of desktops overnight.

I rely 100% on third party firewall and spyware and anti-virus and registry cleaners with the Windows 10 workstation in exactly the same manner as I have relied on them with computers running Windows 7, Windows XP, Window 2000, Windows 3.51, and Windows 3.1. Want a reliable and secure high performance operating system and you need to buy one of the grossly overpriced Apple worstations and pay a $4,000 premium over a Wintel computer.

Our last workstation purchase was one with Windows 10 and our last laptop purchase was the Mac Pro 16" laptop. The remainder of our workstations and laptops run with Windows 7 and will until we eventually replace them with Apple computers.

For a real revalation for the unitiated watch these two videos:

I'm afraid I find the shouty man in the first video impossible to watch. However the second provides considerable food for thought.
I'm not an Adobe user and I have no desire to migrate to one of those overpriced Apple products. I do have a laptop with a recent version of Linux Mint installed and I must say I quite like it. I'm afraid that, in general, I find Linux is more suitable for computer geeks and when I posted questions regarding some aspects of Linux operation, I get the reply "You need to write a script" which as far as I'm concerned is strictly for geeks. Maybe I'm too used to the Windows environment, where everything is controlled by mouse clicks, but I don't think that Linux is quite ready to take over.
Most of my preferred software is only available on the Windows operating platform, so I feel forced to stay there.

To answer one of the other comments from above, I do have an AMD graphics card, and the first thing I did when I got W10 running was to make sure I had the latest graphics driver software installed.
Comments regarding Bit Defender are also noted, but if I revert to W7 that negates some of the comments.

I haven't tested all my installed programs yet, but there are many people (most people?) out there running Luminar on W10 without problems, so to suggest it's an inherent Windows problem can be dismissed. The shutdown problem that I'm experiencing seems to be directly attributable to that program. Luminar is not my preferred raw developer program, so I can live without it for a while.
I think I am going to continue with W10 and try and sort out the problems with the aid of some of the suggestions here. In the long run, if all else fails, I can always reinstall my old "C" drive with W7, on which I had no operating problems, and continue to use W7 as long as I possibly can.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the trouble to post a response to my original enquiry.

 

[Jestertheclown]

there are many people (most people?) out there running Luminar on W10 without problems, so to suggest it's an inherent Windows problem can be dismissed. The shutdown problem that I'm experiencing seems to be directly attributable to that program.

I specifically downloaded and used the trial of Luminar 4 to replace the skies in some shots that I tok at an airshow last year.

While the sky replacements worked after a fashion, the programme itself was hopelessly unstable and just as you're experiencing, crashes were frequent.

None of which really addresses your problem; I never got to the bottom of it either, I simply pressed on and uninstalled it when the time came but my experience does mirror yours which rather implies that the problem lies with the Luminar software rather than, despite its detractors on here, Windows 10.

Which, incidentally, I've been using since the day it was released and I have never, ever, had an issue with it.

"It's good to be . . . . . . . . . Me!"

 

[Morris0]

I added a workstation with the i9 CPU and the only way I could buy a new one was with Windows 10 pre-installed and the only drivers available are Windows 10 drivers. That is the only reason I bought the computer with Windows 10 installed.

Windows 10 has a significant and negative impact on computer performance with all the bloatware. Users seldom notice the difference as they have an old machine running Windows 7 and buy a new more powerful machine that is running Windows 10. Windows 10 is by no means more secure than Windows 7 in any regard. It is just as easy to hack a Windows 10 machine today as any Windows 7 machine.

I have Windows 10 versin 1903 and I had to disable BitLocker and remove as much bloatware as possible and disable updates to have as stable a computer as possible.I spent a week researching Windows 10 issues to have a list of installation recommendations and post installation fixes to apply. Even with this research I missed a couple of problems like BitLocker and the issues with connecting to network printers using Windows 10 (no such issues with Windows 7 or Mac OS X) and getting the infamous "The active Directory Domain Services is currently unavailable" message.

The Windows 10 workstation cannot connect to an Canon laserjet on the network using Ethernet and so I bought a 20 foot USB cable to get around the problem. Hardly something I should have to do in 2020. With Microsoft is is always one step forward and one step backward. With Windows 7 I gained a Wintel 64-bit operating system and it was worth the grief. With Windows 10 the gain is with the new generation of Intel processors so as usual I update the OS to get a more powerful computer and not to get a better operating system.

Microsoft shut down its quality control testing lab in 2015 and now uses a single virtual machine to test code which is why new releases have shut down millions of desktops overnight.

I rely 100% on third party firewall and spyware and anti-virus and registry cleaners with the Windows 10 workstation in exactly the same manner as I have relied on them with computers running Windows 7, Windows XP, Window 2000, Windows 3.51, and Windows 3.1. Want a reliable and secure high performance operating system and you need to buy one of the grossly overpriced Apple worstations and pay a $4,000 premium over a Wintel computer.

Our last workstation purchase was one with Windows 10 and our last laptop purchase was the Mac Pro 16" laptop. The remainder of our workstations and laptops run with Windows 7 and will until we eventually replace them with Apple computers.

For a real revalation for the unitiated watch these two videos:

In my experience every windows 7 computer and particular ones with slower processors or less RAM produced a snappier experience after upgrading to Windows 10.

As far as the two videos you posted, one can find proof of most anything with a google search.

You can continue to shoot yourself in the foot running third party software that destabilizes your system. Of cause these problems caused by tweeks you implement your self or via software are Microsoft's fault.

Morris

 

[Morris0]

there are many people (most people?) out there running Luminar on W10 without problems, so to suggest it's an inherent Windows problem can be dismissed. The shutdown problem that I'm experiencing seems to be directly attributable to that program.

I specifically downloaded and used the trial of Luminar 4 to replace the skies in some shots that I tok at an airshow last year.

While the sky replacements worked after a fashion, the programme itself was hopelessly unstable and just as you're experiencing, crashes were frequent.

None of which really addresses your problem; I never got to the bottom of it either, I simply pressed on and uninstalled it when the time came but my experience does mirror yours which rather implies that the problem lies with the Luminar software rather than, despite its detractors on here, Windows 10.

Which, incidentally, I've been using since the day it was released and I have never, ever, had an issue with it.

"It's good to be . . . . . . . . . Me!"

I have not had problems with the Luminar itself, the installer fails to work for quite a few people including me. I went back and forth with there support staff that fail to read what you tell them. After 10 requests I got someone to provide simple info:

IP address of upgrade server

Fully Qualified Domain Name of upgrade server

I then ran DNS lookup and reverse DNS lookup and they did not match! Took another 6 back and forths till I managed to get someone to escalate to level 2. Level 2 went straight to the developers who were shocked to see what I found. Hopefully the next time there is an upgrade the automatic update detector will both detect the update and install it.

Morris

 

[Austinian]

Most of my preferred software is only available on the Windows operating platform, so I feel forced to stay there.

This is, IMO, an important point. As I see it, consumer operating systems exist first and foremost to run our applications. The operating system that runs the applications the user wants is the most appropriate and useful OS for them.

 

[Jon555]

I added a workstation with the i9 CPU and the only way I could buy a new one was with Windows 10 pre-installed and the only drivers available are Windows 10 drivers. That is the only reason I bought the computer with Windows 10 installed.

Windows 10 has a significant and negative impact on computer performance with all the bloatware. Users seldom notice the difference as they have an old machine running Windows 7 and buy a new more powerful machine that is running Windows 10. Windows 10 is by no means more secure than Windows 7 in any regard. It is just as easy to hack a Windows 10 machine today as any Windows 7 machine.

Windows 10 is a lot more secure, and not just as it's the only one of the two that's getting patched.
Virtualization based security is a biggie (bits of kernel are off on their own)
Credential Guard
Device Guard
Secure Boot
Ransomware protection
It boots faster too.
Win7 was built on a 10-year old codebase, Win10 is new
Plus what bloatware interferes on a day-to-day basis?
Oh and you can change all the privacy options for stuff like callinmg home, which you can't in Win7 and the only option is to check every update and not install all the ones that do that, or just live with more outgoing data.

That said I still find Win10 very annoying on semi-regular occasions...

I have Windows 10 versin 1903 and I had to disable BitLocker and remove as much bloatware as possible and disable updates to have as stable a computer as possible.I spent a week researching Windows 10 issues to have a list of installation recommendations and post installation fixes to apply. Even with this research I missed a couple of problems like BitLocker and the issues with connecting to network printers using Windows 10 (no such issues with Windows 7 or Mac OS X) and getting the infamous "The active Directory Domain Services is currently unavailable" message.

The Windows 10 workstation cannot connect to an Canon laserjet on the network using Ethernet and so I bought a 20 foot USB cable to get around the problem. Hardly something I should have to do in 2020. With Microsoft is is always one step forward and one step backward. With Windows 7 I gained a Wintel 64-bit operating system and it was worth the grief. With Windows 10 the gain is with the new generation of Intel processors so as usual I update the OS to get a more powerful computer and not to get a better operating system.

Microsoft shut down its quality control testing lab in 2015 and now uses a single virtual machine to test code which is why new releases have shut down millions of desktops overnight.

I rely 100% on third party firewall and spyware and anti-virus and registry cleaners with the Windows 10 workstation in exactly the same manner as I have relied on them with computers running Windows 7, Windows XP, Window 2000, Windows 3.51, and Windows 3.1. Want a reliable and secure high performance operating system and you need to buy one of the grossly overpriced Apple worstations and pay a $4,000 premium over a Wintel computer.

Registry cleaners are always very brave... I'd only use one in manual mode to delete stuff you are sure is safe, or not at all.

Our last workstation purchase was one with Windows 10 and our last laptop purchase was the Mac Pro 16" laptop. The remainder of our workstations and laptops run with Windows 7 and will until we eventually replace them with Apple computers.

For a real revalation for the unitiated watch these two videos: