500mm PF VR Testing

[damocles11]

Hey guys, I know this has been discussed in past threads (I tried to reply to the old one but it was closed to new responses), but I just got my 500mm PF today, and so I am doing testing on it while the return window is still open. Reading through the old threads, it seems like the VR issue at certain shutter speeds is not a sample variation issue and is present in most (all?) lenses, but seems to only affects people with certain bodies. Some people say it doesn't affect them, some say it does.

While sitting on my couch, looking at a very small subject a little over 3 meters away, I went ahead and took 3 shots handheld (not continuous, but consecutive) at various shutter speeds, and recorded how many tack sharp images I was able to get. I repeated the process 19 times, summed it up, and recorded the results. I started using a D7200 and switched to a D7500. After seeing my results were very similar with both bodies, I combined the total below.

I just wanted to share my results, because most online reviews don't seem to mention this VR issue at all. Only after reading the forums here do I find information on this. From the old threads it appears as if most of you don't care because you don't shoot in this range - that is fine I'm not here to argue, I just wanted to share my findings. I do care about shooting at these shutter speeds, but it is not a deal breaker for me.

Also I did a similar test for my 300 PF a long time ago - I cannot get sharp shots between 1/50 - 1/160. This 500mm PF for me is a lot better, as the only bad range for my lens appears to be 1/80 - 1/125.







--
www.instagram.com/danieltyee

 

[briantilley]

Hey guys, I know this has been discussed in past threads (I tried to reply to the old one but it was closed to new responses), but I just got my 500mm PF today, and so I am doing testing on it while the return window is still open. Reading through the old threads, it seems like the VR issue at certain shutter speeds is not a sample variation issue and is present in most (all?) lenses, but seems to only affects people with certain bodies. Some people say it doesn't affect them, some say it does.

The camera body may make a difference, but I suspect that a greater variable is the photographer's hand-holding technique.

 

[Rob Blight]

Thanks for sharing. For the sake of clarity which VR mode and shutter release mode were you using? And were you leaning the lens against anything or freely hand holding?

 

[damocles11]

Thanks for sharing. For the sake of clarity which VR mode and shutter release mode were you using? And were you leaning the lens against anything or freely hand holding?

I shot af-c, shutter release, each shot was a separate press of the shutter button. I started with sport mode, then switched to normal. 2/3 were shot with sport, 1/3 with normal. I got around 50% more sharp shots using normal mode than sport. As I noticed the same pattern of unsharp shots at 1/80 and 1/100 between sport and normal modes, it made sense to me to combine them all for an overall summary. In other words, I had the same vr problem under sport and normal vr.

I was sitting down body supported by the couch in an ideal hand hold position, one elbow against body, the other elbow raised up unsupported holding the lens. This would probably be as good as it gets if I were shooting hand held in the field.

 

[Rob Blight]

I shot af-c, shutter release, each shot was a separate press of the shutter button. I started with sport mode, then switched to normal. 2/3 were shot with sport, 1/3 with normal. I got around 50% more sharp shots using normal mode than sport. As I noticed the same pattern of unsharp shots at 1/80 and 1/100 between sport and normal modes, it made sense to me to combine them all for an overall summary. In other words, I had the same vr problem under sport and normal vr.

I was sitting down body supported by the couch in an ideal hand hold position, one elbow against body, the other elbow raised up unsupported holding the lens. This would probably be as good as it gets if I were shooting hand held in the field.

I really like the Qc release mode for slower shutter speeds. Have you tried it? Especially on the D850 it works really well as there's a setting to combine it with the electronic first curtain shutter.

 

[ARClark]

Hey guys, I know this has been discussed in past threads (I tried to reply to the old one but it was closed to new responses), but I just got my 500mm PF today, and so I am doing testing on it while the return window is still open. Reading through the old threads, it seems like the VR issue at certain shutter speeds is not a sample variation issue and is present in most (all?) lenses, but seems to only affects people with certain bodies. Some people say it doesn't affect them, some say it does.

While sitting on my couch, looking at a very small subject a little over 3 meters away, I went ahead and took 3 shots handheld (not continuous, but consecutive) at various shutter speeds, and recorded how many tack sharp images I was able to get. I repeated the process 19 times, summed it up, and recorded the results. I started using a D7200 and switched to a D7500. After seeing my results were very similar with both bodies, I combined the total below.

I just wanted to share my results, because most online reviews don't seem to mention this VR issue at all. Only after reading the forums here do I find information on this. From the old threads it appears as if most of you don't care because you don't shoot in this range - that is fine I'm not here to argue, I just wanted to share my findings. I do care about shooting at these shutter speeds, but it is not a deal breaker for me.

Also I did a similar test for my 300 PF a long time ago - I cannot get sharp shots between 1/50 - 1/160. This 500mm PF for me is a lot better, as the only bad range for my lens appears to be 1/80 - 1/125.

I haven’t done any formal testing, so perhaps my comments should be taken with a grain of salt. But so far, during normal shooting with my D850s, I have not observed any VR weakness with the 500 PF in the “danger range”. This includes a lot of shooting of songbirds in shady woodlands. Overall, I’m pleased to say that I’ve been very impressed with its VR, which I would say is on par with, if not slightly better than the 200-500’s.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

For the sake of clarity which VR mode and shutter release mode were you using? And were you leaning the lens against anything or freely hand holding?

A good question.

It is fairly well known electronic shutter mode can help, and the D800 can have a bit of an issue at the problem speeds.

 

[lokatz]

damocles11, what you found matches almost exactly what I reported on this forum (here) less than two weeks after the lens came out. The responses you are getting now are pretty much the same ones I received back then: some people appreciate you pointing out the issue and others deny that the issue even exists.

There can be no doubt that the 500 PF has a similar issue to the 300 PF one which was reported right after it came out and which still seems to play a role today: within a certain range of shutter speeds, the VR does not perform nearly as well as it should.

This may depend on the body, with some showing the effect (my results were tested on a D500) and others not, but it sure as hell has nothing to do with technique.

I also learned to ignore comments from people who say they 'never noticed it in the field'. Without systematic testing, you are very unlikely to notice this. Shutter speeds around 1/100s aren't exactly standard wildlife fare.

 

[Bill Ferris]

Shutter speeds around 1/100s aren't exactly standard wildlife fare.

On the contrary, I routinely use shutter speeds from 1/40 to 1/125 to photograph wildlife at 500mm f/5.6 during early morning hours. Early morning is the day part when wildlife are most active. It's why f/4 long primes and zooms are the ultimate wildlife lenses. The extra stop of light buys more time; either by allowing you to start shooting earlier in the morning or by allowing the use of faster shutter speeds.

 

[lokatz]

Shutter speeds around 1/100s aren't exactly standard wildlife fare.

On the contrary, I routinely use shutter speeds from 1/40 to 1/125 to photograph wildlife at 500mm f/5.6 during early morning hours. Early morning is the day part when wildlife are most active. It's why f/4 long primes and zooms are the ultimate wildlife lenses. The extra stop of light buys more time; either by allowing you to start shooting earlier in the morning or by allowing the use of faster shutter speeds.

Well, then you should be worried about the 500 PF's weakness in that range.

 

[damocles11]

@lokatz - Yes - I read through your old post it was very helpful. You are one of the few people who documented their testing results and it is nice to have someone else's to compare to. I was testing for tack sharp pictures only, of which I got ~11% at 1/80 and 1/100. Your own test also only got 5/50 tack sharp at 1/80, which is also 10%. Very interesting as we got almost the same result.

With my 300mm PF, I thought the VR issue I had was due to sample variation. After reading about the 500mm VR issues on this forum, I know now it is probably not sample variation.

It is true that 95% of my shooting will be at faster shutter speeds; however if you are shooting a lion/tiger/bear around sunrise/sunset, and it is walking very slowly, I want to shoot at the slowest shutter speed possible while still freezing movement, which is probably around 1/100 of a second. It is in these situations where shooting at 1/100 of a second could be very critical. It is also in these situations where I need all frames per second my camera can give me because I may be getting some blurry pictures due to the slow speed. I had this exact situation happen to me just last month when I was using my 300mm PF. I do these tests not for fun, but because I need to know how my gear works when I am shooting in the field so I don't miss shots by using the wrong shutter speed.

@Rob Blight - Thank you I will try to run some tests with quiet mode and with EFCS. The problem with this potential solution is it causes restrictions on my cameras capability, specifically the fps, but if it works could be used in some situations.

 

[Bill Ferris]

Shutter speeds around 1/100s aren't exactly standard wildlife fare.

On the contrary, I routinely use shutter speeds from 1/40 to 1/125 to photograph wildlife at 500mm f/5.6 during early morning hours. Early morning is the day part when wildlife are most active. It's why f/4 long primes and zooms are the ultimate wildlife lenses. The extra stop of light buys more time; either by allowing you to start shooting earlier in the morning or by allowing the use of faster shutter speeds.

Well, then you should be worried about the 500 PF's weakness in that range.

No worries I don't own the 500 PF. I don't have a regular need for a relatively smallish 500mm. The 200-500 is portable enough for my needs and the VR is excellent.

I just shot a range of photos with the D500 at 480mm. I shot batches of exposures at shutter speeds from 1/2-second to 1/125-second. The camera was on a monopod with VR/Sport engaged.

• 1/2-second: 6/6 blurry and unusable.
• 1/4: 2/6 usable for publication to the Web. 0/6 tack sharp.
• 1/8: 1/6 usable. 0/6 tack.
• 1/15: 13/19 usable. 8/19 tack.
• 1/30: 9/11 usable. 8/11 tack.
• 1/60: 22/24 usable. 18/24 tack.
• 1/125: 13/13 tack.

Of course, these were in my living room photographing a page of sheet music under optimal conditions. In the field beneath a canvas hide at 5:30 AM I would not expect to get the same results. But I've come home with keepers of wildlife caught in a moment of stillness at 1/40.

 

[lokatz]

...
I just shot a range of photos with the D500 at 480mm. I shot batches of exposures at shutter speeds from 1/2-second to 1/125-second. The camera was on a monopod with VR/Sport engaged.
...

Of course, these were in my living room photographing a page of sheet music under optimal conditions. In the field beneath a canvas hide at 5:30 AM I would not expect to get the same results. But I've come home with keepers of wildlife caught in a moment of stillness at 1/40.

Same here. Which should not be a surprise. As my testing shows, the 500 PF lens will still give you quite a few keepers at 1/20s, probably even at 1/10s. You just have to ask that bear to sit still. ;-)

 

[briantilley]

damocles11, what you found matches almost exactly what I reported on this forum (here) less than two weeks after the lens came out. The responses you are getting now are pretty much the same ones I received back then: some people appreciate you pointing out the issue and others deny that the issue even exists.

There can be no doubt that the 500 PF has a similar issue to the 300 PF one which was reported right after it came out and which still seems to play a role today: within a certain range of shutter speeds, the VR does not perform nearly as well as it should.

This may depend on the body, with some showing the effect (my results were tested on a D500) and others not, but it sure as hell has nothing to do with technique.

Since we are all different, I don't see how it's possible to say conclusively that technique is or is not a factor.

I also learned to ignore comments from people who say they 'never noticed it in the field'. Without systematic testing, you are very unlikely to notice this.

Shutter speeds around 1/100s aren't exactly standard wildlife fare.

I guess you'll dismiss my experience as invalid (or just ignore it), since I've done no formal testing, but I quite often shoot in the "problem range" with prop-driven aircraft as subjects. I've noticed no particular problems due to VR with the 500mm or 300mm PF lenses - that's on D5, D850 and D500 cameras. I've also used a 500mm f/4 VR, 80-400mm VR and Tamron 150-600mm VC G1 in similar situations, and found them no better and no worse in this regard.

I don't deny that the issue exists - but If it's unlikely to be noticed in the field, as you suggest above and as my experience verifies, is it something we need to worry about?

 

[Steve47316]

Is the performance of this lens similar with the mirror less Z bodies?

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

I routinely use shutter speeds from 1/40 to 1/125 to photograph wildlife at 500mm f/5.6 during early morning hours.

I presume you use a tripod, or some other support system.

Nikon's specification for the 200-500 at 500mm is about 2.5-3 stops VR gain at the shutter speeds you are using.

Nikon seem not to provide VR performance detail for any other lens.

The maximum 4.5 stops (using the CIPA method) is achieved at 1/6 shutter speed. This 4.5 stops gain is relative to the sharpness at 1/125 without VR.

Few would get super sharp shots without VR at 1/125 with a 500mm ;-)

VR has its place - but usually actual performance at specific shutter speeds for VR/IS etc is well hidden by manufacturers. This may be because actual performance of "up to x apertures" is not achieved at many shutter speeds.

 

[Rob Blight]

Shutter speeds around 1/100s aren't exactly standard wildlife fare.

Pfffft! I'm constantly around that range and lower. 1/125th and even 1/60th handheld is very doable and quite reliably sharp, too. (500PF + D850)

Tbh this is one of the best things about the lens - it somewhat makes up for the f/5.6 aperture with exceptional VR (in my experience at least - I'm not suggesting the issue doesn't exist).

 

[Gabbro]

Few would get super sharp shots without VR at 1/125 with a 500mm ;-)

Hold my beer. 500 pf at 1/25 sec, my 'standard" VR test.







https://photos.app.goo.gl/CofLTCKEg7bAaDnj8

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

Few would get super sharp shots without VR at 1/125 with a 500mm ;-)

Hold my beer. 500 pf at 1/25 sec, my 'standard" VR test.

It is difficult to tell if this example is "super sharp" part because of the small reproduction size, part because there is no easy to analyse detail in the central subject, though as presented it does not seem to me to be super sharp.

You are not square on to the background.

The bird motif on the left (agreed not in the subject plane) is a long way from sharp, and there is increasing softness with the black lettering on the right, again possibly because you are not at 90 degrees to the background.

Was it with or without VR?

--
Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than the equipment being used.

 

[Bill Ferris]

I routinely use shutter speeds from 1/40 to 1/125 to photograph wildlife at 500mm f/5.6 during early morning hours.

I presume you use a tripod, or some other support system.

I use a monopod.