Thom on the price of enthusiasm

[dv312]

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-price-of-enthusiasm.html

As a side note on Macbook Pro, I've decided to replace my stolen Mac with an older 2015 model since I still want the SD card, USB, and HDMI slots

I'm not quite ready for USB-C with a whole bunch of adapter dongles

Call me old fashioned

Cheers,

 

[addlightness]

<QUOTE>

Here’s the path to a healthier camera market:

• Make it a bit smaller/lighter overall (compared to current model).
• Make it tougher overall (compared to current model).
• Make it share directly.
• Solve all the workflow problems every user has.

That’s it. A 24mp APS sensor mirrorless/DSLR that does those things right compared to the current model at US$700 will sell in greater quantities than today’s models. Almost certainly. And so would the US$2000 version of this, too ;~).

</QUOTE>

Hmm, sounds like Panasonic should just take charge and dust off the blueprint of GM1/5 and come out with 20mp GM7? Please?

 

[eques]

[No message]

 

[ediblestarfish]

Camera hardware I have is mostly good enough for what I want, but the workflow issues are the biggest challenge. So easy to take a picture how I want now, just hard to transfer the data, process the data, upload the data, and then share the data.

Example is the Halloween images of the family I took. By the time I got back to the computer to sort, process, upload, and share my images of 'superior quality', the phone images everyone took and immediately shared got a much more positive reaction, especially while they were living in the moment, and not afterwards. I might have better images for the archive to relive, but I missed out on the fleeting moments of fun without the ability to participate in immediate interaction.

I may get flamed for it again, but I really think cameras and smartphones need to converge somewhere to maintain some minimum expected standards for ease of use and data connectivity.

 

[phil from seattle]

Interesting. He's right about sharing. Strange that none of the old school camera companies get it. (or perhaps get it but are unable to do something about it.) On "going wireless". I would if I could. The current WiFi - smart phone connection basically just plain sucks. And, It doesn't work with PCs/Macs/... It's slow, battery draining and extremely clumsy. Using USB is pretty slow. I'm not sure how fast the USB-C connection performance could be but right now, it's pretty slow. As it is, pulling the sd card out and sticking it in a reader is vastly faster.

Even one-off sharing is deeply clumsy. If I wanted to post a picture I just took with my EM-1 on Facebook, it requires setting the camera in WiFi mode (making it unusable for taking pictures), switching my phone WiFi to the camera, running the oi.share app, selecting the image, then going through the posting process. Then I have to switch my phone WiFi back and set my camera back to regular mode. No one does that. I have batched them up and shared while sitting in a cafe or some such but even that is rare.

 

[SpinOne]

Seems to me that he's half right.

His analysis on price increases is correct. Cameras are increasingly tools for professionals, and affluent enthusiasts.

He's wrong that the camera industry could be fixed by connecting cameras to the Internet. Camera makers have tried to make a few hybrids, it hasn't worked.

The reality is that smartphones were always going to win that battle. They're small, ubiquitous, intuitive, easy to change apps, always with you, and you're already paying for the data service.

While it's going to suck for camera manufacturers, and make gear a little more expensive, and potentially reduce consumer choices, I have to say it doesn't bother me that much. Despite the stereotype, it's rare that a technology is truly wiped out. I'm reasonably confident that photography will not disappear any time soon.

 

[john isaacs]

Interesting. He's right about sharing. Strange that none of the old school camera companies get it. (or perhaps get it but are unable to do something about it.) On "going wireless". I would if I could. The current WiFi - smart phone connection basically just plain sucks. And, It doesn't work with PCs/Macs/... It's slow, battery draining and extremely clumsy. Using USB is pretty slow. I'm not sure how fast the USB-C connection performance could be but right now, it's pretty slow. As it is, pulling the sd card out and sticking it in a reader is vastly faster.

Even one-off sharing is deeply clumsy. If I wanted to post a picture I just took with my EM-1 on Facebook, it requires setting the camera in WiFi mode (making it unusable for taking pictures), switching my phone WiFi to the camera, running the oi.share app, selecting the image, then going through the posting process. Then I have to switch my phone WiFi back and set my camera back to regular mode. No one does that. I have batched them up and shared while sitting in a cafe or some such but even that is rare.

That is a problem with Olympus implementation. Panasonic app does not disable use of the camera while connected. I can set up a connection once, and then use the camera and iPhone seamlessly. So when I want to do this sort of thing, I use my Panasonic cameras.

An option that I also use is the EyeFi Mobi Pro card; it will transfer pictures to my computer or phone as I shoot, once it's set up to do that. Setup has to be done with the proprietary card reader on the computer, so if you didn't do it ahead of time, you are stuck.

The problem with most of these solutions is that they were not really engineered for smooth workflow.

 

[SpinOne]

Interesting. He's right about sharing. Strange that none of the old school camera companies get it.

They've tried. It doesn't work well.

(or perhaps get it but are unable to do something about it.) On "going wireless". I would if I could.

Are you willing to spend another $60/month for a data connection for your camera?

Is the average person willing to spend that much, too?

Do you think it'd be easy to run IOS or Android on a camera that needs to be rock solid?

Do you look forward to hackers taking over your camera to engineer DDoS attacks on Sanrio Puroland? :-D

 

[phil from seattle]

Interesting. He's right about sharing. Strange that none of the old school camera companies get it.

They've tried. It doesn't work well.

(or perhaps get it but are unable to do something about it.) On "going wireless". I would if I could.

Are you willing to spend another $60/month for a data connection for your camera?

Is the average person willing to spend that much, too?

Do you think it'd be easy to run IOS or Android on a camera that needs to be rock solid?

Do you look forward to hackers taking over your camera to engineer DDoS attacks on Sanrio Puroland? :-D

Easy to list the Nos. But what about BT to phone? Low power, speed isn't great but it's pretty simple to use. Regardless, there is a brass ring waiting to get grabbed.

I'll have to check out the panasonic implementation though I'm kind of invested in Oly right now. Given the high price of the M1mii and the great reviews of the G80/85, I might have a panny in my future.

 

[larsbc]

Camera hardware I have is mostly good enough for what I want, but the workflow issues are the biggest challenge. So easy to take a picture how I want now, just hard to transfer the data, process the data, upload the data, and then share the data.

Example is the Halloween images of the family I took. By the time I got back to the computer to sort, process, upload, and share my images of 'superior quality', the phone images everyone took and immediately shared got a much more positive reaction, especially while they were living in the moment, and not afterwards. I might have better images for the archive to relive, but I missed out on the fleeting moments of fun without the ability to participate in immediate interaction.

First, I am not trying to argue about your experience but I am interested in what you mean. By not being able to "participate in immediate interaction," what do you mean? You mean you couldn't immediately share your photos to social media?

Also, as far as it being hard to share the data, how so? I mean, if you're already at your computer with the processed photos, moving it to social media (presumably) is pretty easy unless you're talking about a service that has no web access?

And finally, I think it's ironic that you're talking about living in the moment yet are referring to people who are sharing their images to social media (again, my assumption) in almost real-time. Not an insult, just an observation on the times we live in.

It reminds me of a friend of mine who often surprises me because we'd be at a dinner, for instance, and the next morning I would discover that he was posting a photo from the dinner WHILE he was at the dinner. This almost constant need or desire to share info with one's social network seems alien to me. But I guess that is a big driving force for the rise of the smartphone camera and the demise of the P&S. Although the bigger force is probably because of the simple fact that smartphone cameras have been good enough and were always with you.

 

[ediblestarfish]

Actually a lot of it come from my wife, who is communicating with friends all around, each seeing what kind of fun they are up to. She's always asking me to send her my great photos while they are all chatting, and most of the time I'm empty handed, with all my photos on my SD card instead of somewhere I can easily share them.

It always disappoints her, my friends; even my own family wonder what's with the holdup a lot of the time. Maybe they are just more tech centric than other people, but then again, I don't think this trend is going away.

It's even harder with video on my camera. Wife is shooting, editing, and sharing in minutes. 4k and slo-mo video is also within easy access for her.

For all the great hardware I have, it's not done much to share what I take and be a more active participant.

For all the people that are annoyed by the constant mobile phone junkies, it seems they are just as impatient and irked with my method of taking photos and video.

 

[phil from seattle]

Actually a lot of it come from my wife, who is communicating with friends all around, each seeing what kind of fun they are up to. She's always asking me to send her my great photos while they are all chatting, and most of the time I'm empty handed, with all my photos on my SD card instead of somewhere I can easily share them.

It always disappoints her, my friends; even my own family wonder what's with the holdup a lot of the time. Maybe they are just more tech centric than other people, but then again, I don't think this trend is going away.

It's even harder with video on my camera. Wife is shooting, editing, and sharing in minutes. 4k and slo-mo video is also within easy access for her.

For all the great hardware I have, it's not done much to share what I take and be a more active participant.

For all the people that are annoyed by the constant mobile phone junkies, it seems they are just as impatient and irked with my method of taking photos and video.

Yeah. I get that too. When I have my camera, I'm always bringing up the rear with any group. And, I can be pretty fast getting pictures off my camera but others are way faster. My pictures may be significantly better but most people on social media just don't care that much. I tend to post small albums/collections which get very positive response but the lack of immediacy is definitely felt.

 

[Guy Parsons]

The big point is the connectivity issue that drives the rise of smartphones.

This forum is largely loaded with people on the old side of the general population so are more likely to be not bothered with needing to post their latest hamburger meal on Farcebook. Sifting images later at home is all that is needed for that photo enthusiast.

Fact is that the younger crowd will grow up and still want to be able to post images immediately even if they have or desire a better camera. So cameras will need to add easy ways to upload to some cloud/Web area.

I keep promoting Casio as a compact (but capable) camera maker that is not widely available but is keeping alive by keeping up with the times. The very minimum now seems to be able to WiFi connect to a smartphone for that immediate upload as per the applications they show on their page at http://www.casio-intl.com/asia/en/dc/apps/

My wife has a Casio ZR850 with WiFi but hasn't explored the Link app yet, if she wants to post an immediate image she just reaches for her aging Apple phone inherited from her daughter when she upgraded.

As for me I never need to do any immediate uploads so WiFi is only reserved for remote control of the camera.

The camera is of interest but the Internet is not. If I had to choose one to keep it would always be the camera. I can live happily in a vacuum.

Regards..... Guy

 

[453C]

Actually a lot of it come from my wife, who is communicating with friends all around, each seeing what kind of fun they are up to. She's always asking me to send her my great photos while they are all chatting, and most of the time I'm empty handed, with all my photos on my SD card instead of somewhere I can easily share them.

It always disappoints her, my friends; even my own family wonder what's with the holdup a lot of the time. Maybe they are just more tech centric than other people, but then again, I don't think this trend is going away.

It's even harder with video on my camera. Wife is shooting, editing, and sharing in minutes. 4k and slo-mo video is also within easy access for her.

For all the great hardware I have, it's not done much to share what I take and be a more active participant.

For all the people that are annoyed by the constant mobile phone junkies, it seems they are just as impatient and irked with my method of taking photos and video.

Yeah. I get that too. When I have my camera, I'm always bringing up the rear with any group. And, I can be pretty fast getting pictures off my camera but others are way faster. My pictures may be significantly better but most people on social media just don't care that much. I tend to post small albums/collections which get very positive response but the lack of immediacy is definitely felt.

I don't believe immediacy is at the core of it as much as competition, and I don't care for it.

"Look what I did!" - Ok, whatever. So you climbed a mountain last week. Big deal. Why didn't you call me from the summit?

"Look at what I'm doing right now!" - Yes, much better. Out of focus, but I can almost make out the bubbles in the froth you slopped out of that beer stein. YOLO BRO!

After backcountry trips, I like to get together with the group and share photos & videos. Unfortunately, that activity has lost out to chimping in camp during a trip, using tiny camera displays instead of something much better at home. Since I only bring enough power to shoot during a trip, I refuse to pass my camera around the fire, which always results in grumpiness for me being "anti-social".

I'd much rather take the time to develop a relatively small number of photos properly, and view them appropriately, than snap a cardful of dross that gets auto-dumped into a photostream.

But that's me being anti-social.

 

[brianric]

Dropping removal SSD in cameras not going to cut it for my use, same goes for wireless uploads. I have to many back to back events where I don't have the luxury of uploading to my computer for culling and processing. Wireless uploads is pretty much useless when you're trying to upload two to three thousand pictures, both on speed and having batteries go dead on the camera. By the time such technology is feasible I'll be pushing daisies.

 

[john isaacs]

Camera hardware I have is mostly good enough for what I want, but the workflow issues are the biggest challenge. So easy to take a picture how I want now, just hard to transfer the data, process the data, upload the data, and then share the data.

Example is the Halloween images of the family I took. By the time I got back to the computer to sort, process, upload, and share my images of 'superior quality', the phone images everyone took and immediately shared got a much more positive reaction, especially while they were living in the moment, and not afterwards. I might have better images for the archive to relive, but I missed out on the fleeting moments of fun without the ability to participate in immediate interaction.

I may get flamed for it again, but I really think cameras and smartphones need to converge somewhere to maintain some minimum expected standards for ease of use and data connectivity.

I use an EyeFi Mobi Pro card in the camera; shoot medium JPG + RAW and have the JPG transferred to my iPhone. I use an iPhone 6 plus...bigger screen for better viewing. Or a tablet...even better. I can get the better quality light/framing from the camera, can do light edits on the phone/tablet. Then I can do full processing when I get back to my computer, post to a website and send out the links. Since people have seen a preview, they are anticipating the final results.

 

[larsbc]

Actually a lot of it come from my wife, who is communicating with friends all around, each seeing what kind of fun they are up to. She's always asking me to send her my great photos while they are all chatting, and most of the time I'm empty handed, with all my photos on my SD card instead of somewhere I can easily share them.

It always disappoints her, my friends; even my own family wonder what's with the holdup a lot of the time. Maybe they are just more tech centric than other people, but then again, I don't think this trend is going away.

It's even harder with video on my camera. Wife is shooting, editing, and sharing in minutes. 4k and slo-mo video is also within easy access for her.

For all the great hardware I have, it's not done much to share what I take and be a more active participant.

For all the people that are annoyed by the constant mobile phone junkies, it seems they are just as impatient and irked with my method of taking photos and video.

You're right, the trend certainly isn't going away. It doesn't bother me unless the people with me appear to be more tuned out from our conversation or time together, in which case I think it'd rude. In any case, I think Thom has a point about how camera makers should reduce the friction of getting photos from the camera up into social media. It doesn't matter to me but I'm not representative of the majority or the upcoming majority.

 

[eawortman]

Samsung tried, but I don't think they got very far.

Loading…

www.samsung.com

 

[ediblestarfish]

Was sort of leery of that particular tech, but if it works for you, I'll give it a try.

 

[CheersUK]

Samsung tried, but I don't think they got very far.

http://www.samsung.com/global/microsite/galaxycamera/nx/

A great point. I think we are too far down the path for camera manufacturers to change the tide. Camera enthusiasts will continue to buy cameras, but for a camera manufacturer to make inroads into rhe camera phone market by producing a 'social media connected' camera doesnt hold water. The target audiance already have what they need in their phone...certainly no point in carrying another device that does the same thing, minus texting, calling, face timing etc.

Camera enthusiasts generally want their camera to look like a camera and take good photos, the rest of the population really dont give a crap, as long as they can get their photos on facebook and chat with their friends.

My step daughter has a really good photographic eye. I asked her if she would like a camera for Christmas, 'why? ' she said, 'I have my iPhone'. Enough said.